What to tell the wife?

dgoldstein

We've been in our house since 2012 and since then I've been educating myself on hydronics so as to better understand and get the most out of my heating system. Last night while in bed with my wife; keeping it clean here, she voiced her frustrations with the results from my "tweaking" the system.

The system was originally set up like any other old-school heating system. You turn the t-stat to the temp you want, the boiler runs, the pipes heat up, the t-stat temp is met, and the boiler shuts down. When she was hot, she'd turn it down or off, when cold, turn the t-stat temp up - basically on demand temperature adjustment depending on her level of comfort. This is how the heating system was approached in our apartment (all electric heat), and how it was at her childhood home (also electric heat, but the house had zero insulation). The idea of a setback made sense to her. It makes sense to me, but I've read volumes about how it's the equivalent of fools gold.

So, there we are in bed, she wants to be able to turn the heat down so the bedroom is cooler for sleeping. But, she's frustrated that she doesn't think she can do that without having me shut the heat off and go re-program a heating curve in the boiler.

The house is plumbed with SlantFin HWBB, 3 zones, each zone is a series loop with it's own circulator on the return side. The house is a hodge podge of 1950's beach bungalow turned full-time home with a early 21st-century addition tacked on. R19 at best in the 6" deep walls and ceilings, a bit more in the 2nd floor addition.

Boiler is a Munchkin 80M R2 with Vision 1 ODR. I've got the curve dialed in to where it moreorless maintains an indoor temp of ~70*-72*, t-stat is set to 72*, WWSD is 70*. This all only concerns one zone for our 1st floor. The other 2 zones aren't used much (utility room - seems dumb to even have a zone in there since the boiler and hot water heater live in the room, and my 2nd-floor that gets a lot of heat coming up from the 1st floor).

I've tried opening and closing the bedroom's HWBB dampers to better control the temp, but as you know, it's not an exact science. I've tried to seek out TRVs for the base-boards, and the information is far and few between and I'm not sure how effective it would be for a large series loop.

Yes, I've done some basic heat loss calcs, but haven't yet measured the emitters.

Ugh, so, I'm not sure what to tell her short of just going back to the "old way". I acknowledge that the system isn't as practical as it should be. When we feel cold, like after being outside in the snow, she wants more heat. When we're going to bed, less heat in the bedroom. When she gets a chill more heat... The ODR is automated and robotic and doesn't seem to allow the human to easily over-ride it.

I don't know what to do. =\

ChrisJ

I really don't know what to tell you other than what I personally do.

My system runs one temp and that's that. I don't care if people in the house get a chill, or their mood changes, put on clothes or take some off. If I had an issue with someone trying to change the thermostat I'd put a password on it.

A quality heating system is one that maintains a very steady temperature, not one that causes rapid changes. Rapid changes is what results in the classic "hot, cold, hot, cold,hot,cold" feeling forced air gives.

A setback at night for the entire house is fine, as is a TRV in the bedroom. I'm running TRVs in two of my bedrooms to keep them cooler 24/7.

Snowmelt

I think you have to see how much baseboard is in each room, ex. if you have too much baseboard in the bedroom it will get hotter then other rooms in the house when setting the thermostat on 70 it may reach 73 in that room. I think you may have too much baseboard in a specific room so its getting hotter by 4 or 5 degrees and your telling the difference.
Note. it most likely was that before the outdoor reset. Id remove some baseboard. but that's what i am understanding

modconwannabe

Asking because I had a similar situation: if your heat is in a series loop, if you don't have bypasses on each baseboard then is it possible to put a TRV there? My understanding is without a bypass then shut off one emitter and the whole series stops.

Another homeowner perspective--depending where your thermostat is, you may be a candidate for a learning thermostat like a NEST or similar (ecobee, honeywell, etc, there are several). You put it in learning mode, it pays attention to your household activity and t-stat tweaks then after a week it begins to adjust accordingly. You can also have it follow a set schedule if you want. I believe you'd need one for each zone though, so maybe you get one of these just for the zone where your bedroom(s) is and leave the rest of the system as-is. SO there's a setback in your bedroom, but everywhere else things remain constant?

Zman

Your question is not really a heating question, but you already know that.

You are absolutely correct that you have tweaked the system to the point that it is at maximum efficiency and is maintaining a constant indoor temp. That is an admirable thing to you and most people on this forum, myself included.

The problem is that the other occupant of your household is more temperature sensitive and does not want the house at the same temp all the time. She wants the house warm sometimes and cold other times. Whatever you do don't attempt to figure this out, better men have been driven to madness with this question, just don't go there.

The compromise would be to install a simple thermostat that is easy to read and operate. Then "untweak" the outdoor reset by increasing it 10 to 20 degrees so the room feels warmer when the heat comes on.

Sure you will loose a few percentages in efficiency but your problem will be solved.

Best of luck,
Carl

dgoldstein

Thanks for all of your advice.

I will do the emitter measurements and figure out once and for all if the emitters, particularly in the bedroom is over-sized.

I will look into the learning t-stats and their viability, but again, I think she wants comfort on demand and the automation aspect has put her off.

In my research of TRVs for HWBB, yes, I bypass would be needed so as to supply the rest of the loop with non-TRV effected water. It's doable, but I'd sooner investigate swapping out the HWBB for a steel panel radiator with TRV and by-pass. I've been researching this swap for my living room since we're going to remodel it anyway. My bedroom is small, 9' x 15" x 7' 1" ceilings, South and West exterior walls and tons of shade, so the heat/cooling loss/load is very low.

I will immediately untweak the ODR curve as per Carl's suggestion by 10-20* and let her tweak the t-stat to whatever makes her comfortable.

Aside from the bedroom, the rest of the house is fine temp-wise to me.

Paul48

A couple years ago, someone on here posted a link to a manufacturer of TRV's with a bypass.

dgoldstein

I think these, though in the UK:

http://www.honeywelluk.com/products/Valves/Bypass-Valves/

Paul48

No.....that wasn't them. I think the guy was from CT, but I can't remember the name, and haven't seen him in a long time. Maybe someone else will remember.

Canucker

Another option might be to explore whether it's psychological. (You try this at your own risk.lol)

Put a dummy tstat on the bedroom wall, tell her what rooms it "controls". See if she gets satisfied with the new "temps" she sets. That's how I won the thermostat war in the bedrooms at my house. Ymmv.

ChrisJ

Canucker said:

Another option might be to explore whether it's psychological. (You try this at your own risk.lol)

Put a dummy tstat on the bedroom wall, tell her what rooms it "controls". See if she gets satisfied with the new "temps" she sets. That's how I won the thermostat war in the bedrooms at my house. Ymmv.

That's just wrong.

Paul48

Try and tell a menopausal woman she's not too hot. Good Luck with that!

gennady

this is how we solve this issue.

JUGHNE

So you lose heating efficiency points or domestic points, which makes your life more comfortable?

Been thru about 40 years of the impossible to calibrate female biological temperature regulator. So we have Tstat in almost every room. " Our" bedroom might never have heat, low as 50 sometimes. The mas bath has to be 74 and that is toasty with floor & wall panels. AC is also challenging, thankfully have 2 zones.

A simple thing to slow the BB in the bedroom is to cover the tops of the fins with aluminum foil to prevent air flow.

A placebo T-stat, if found out, could lose you many domestic points.

Things like the Nest don't really know who rules the "nest".
But I can tell you that I am the king of the castle, (until the queen gets home.)

Quercus

At our office people tend to put jackets on later in the day. I noticed that I too felt chilled late in the day so I put a digital thermometer away from computers and ductwork.

It's 73* rock solid from first thing until quitting time. Comfort and temperature are not always related the same way.

Recent articles this summer also highlighted major differences in perceived comfort between the sexes.

Steve

Paul48

JUGHNE.........There's a training manual that they use. I don't know where they keep it, but they all use it.

vaporvac

It's not surprising people are cooler in the afternoon....just our natural biology coupled with the fact that after 8 hours of mainly sitting we produce less heat. I'm always super hot after a run or even yard work, but if I don't put on something warm I'll get chilled as my body temp cools. I think it's OK to have a colder BR as it's pretty well shown that we need that for better sleep. Why else have those woolen blankets and fluffy comforters?
There's also a perceived diff in temp depending on the season.... 78deg ac in the summer may be comfortable, but the same temp in the winter would be too hot.
Women, in general, have greater surface area, so they do feel temp swings more.

Anyway, not meaning to hijack this post, but is there any problem with shutting off a register with forced air. Someone asked me this recently and no nothing about forced air.

hot_rod

Many of us have been down this road. I put a radiator and control on my wife side of the bed. She can reach out at any point and control the heat output.

Not so simple in your case to build in this adjustability.

With every home and heating system I have owned I find a better or more user friendly installation to try "next time"

Quercus

I want a chair like that!

Canucker

ChrisJ said:

Canucker said:

Another option might be to explore whether it's psychological. (You try this at your own risk.lol)

Put a dummy tstat on the bedroom wall, tell her what rooms it "controls". See if she gets satisfied with the new "temps" she sets. That's how I won the thermostat war in the bedrooms at my house. Ymmv.

That's just wrong.

All's fair in love and (thermostat) wars? To be fair, if she catches me, i'll be starting my garage heating project a lot sooner

Harvey Ramer

@dgoldstein

Here you go sir,
I have customers who are living through the change and they swear by this. www.ChiliTechnology.com

hot_rod

Canucker said:

ChrisJ said:

Canucker said:

Another option might be to explore whether it's psychological. (You try this at your own risk.lol)

Put a dummy tstat on the bedroom wall, tell her what rooms it "controls". See if she gets satisfied with the new "temps" she sets. That's how I won the thermostat war in the bedrooms at my house. Ymmv.

That's just wrong.

All's fair in love and (thermostat) wars? To be fair, if she catches me, i'll be starting my garage heating project a lot sooner

Or the heated dog house!

vaporvac

The chilipad looks just like a chillo. the latter works really well especially summer with no ac.

dgoldstein

@ gennady, I'd love to know more about your HWBB t-stat plumbing. You're not obscenely far away either

@ hot-rod, I love that! Where did you find that radiator?

@ every one, I'll be tweaking the ODR curve soon to give a bit more flexibility, but still need to measure the emitter length for the bedroom since I'm almost certain it's over radiated.

Quercus

this sums up what you are experiencing