Tough decision; what would you do? Chance to change entire heating system.

DMRuke

First, thanks! I greatly appreciate any advice, thoughts, or comments.

I have a natural gas steam boiler (Utica PEG 187s) that's at least 30+ years old, with cast iron radiators throughout the home (~1450sqft, 1 zone). I definitely want to replace it with something new & higher efficiency, but at the same time I'm planning to remodel the entire house over the coming months/year (the 2nd floor is currently already gutted to the studs).

That being the case, now is definitely the time to decide on whether to keep the steam & cast iron radiators or change over to something else (like baseboard, or hot water, or perhaps even central air?). Given an opportunity like this where half the house is already stripped and funds are available, would it be a wise decision or a waste of money?

I'm having trouble deciding myself. I do like the idea of not having the radiators take up space, and/or potentially combining the AC+heat into one system, but not sure if it's worth the cost or a poor decision. I definitely don't want to end up with a worse performing system for the house, or paying more for the utilities.

I'm in the North East, and not planning to resell or move out anytime soon.

Thanks for your time.

KC_Jones

You are going to get ALOT of opinions here. The first thing i will say for sure, DON'T do forced hot air. You will reduce your comfort for sure. Some people disagree with this, but I am not one of them. Hydronic heating (steam included) is by far the most comfortable form of heating. Now the next question you have to ask yourself is, how deep are your pockets? We do not discuss pricing here at all, but any complete change is going to cost more than just keeping your steam system. I personally love steam and its simplicity and if done and tuned properly can be fairly efficient. You in all honesty have the final say here it's your house and your money. If it was my house and my money I would keep the steam and either do central AC or mini split AC.

DMRuke

Thanks KC_Jones.

I have heard that steam/hydronic heat is comfortable, though it's hard for me to 'visualize' the difference since I've always had steam (I've been in this house for 25 years). I didn't even think about that as a point of consideration though, thanks for raising it.

KC_Jones

Well if I may, I honestly ONLY consider comfort when I am thinking about heating and cooling the house. Think of it this way if energy efficiency was the primary concern you would set the thermostat to it's lowest setting all winter just to keep the pipes from freezing and not even have AC. To me comfort is first and creating that comfort the most efficient way possible is second. I grew up with forced hot air and when I visit my parents house in the winter it feels like a damn refrigerator and we both set our thermostats the same 70°. Again it's your house and there will be more opinions to come I'm sure. I think most if not all will recommend some form of hydronic heating. Couple things to consider if you do change or even just upgrade the steam system. Get a pro that knows AND in the case of a complete change get someone who knows how to design a system. It might cost more short term, but will save you long term.

Fred

I second what @KC_Jones said, above. I think steam is probably one of the most comfortable heat sources you can have in a home. This assumes it is properly installed and maintained. When I restored my home, some 25 years ago, I kept the steam heat and added central airto the house. Because the cost of a gas, forced air furnace was so small, when compared to an air handler for the central air, I went ahead and installed the forced air as a back-up should the boiler fail, in the dead of winter. I have only had to use it on two occassions, for a couple days each time but it's nice to have when needed and, as I said, the incremental cost was minimal. As far as radiator spece, in all likelihood, you'd not save much space when you consider that you can't (or shouldn't) place furniture over registers.

KC_Jones

Fred said:

As far as radiator spece, in all likelihood, you'd not save much space when you consider that you can't (or shouldn't) place furniture over registers.

And this is something VERY often overlooked by people when changing systems. Also a good reason to possibly consider mini splits instead of central AC. Also for central AC on more modest size houses like many of us have the duct work has to go somewhere so you lose the space for all the ducts. I used to want to go the central AC route, but the mini splits have become way more attractive in recent years. Until I have a lot more money I stick with window units for now...lol.

SlamDunk

I third it. correctly sized, properly installed and you will be happier on the coldest nights! My original boiler died after 60 yrs. I modernized and installed forced air with A/C and heat because it was less expensive and there are no steam people down here.

Kept steam system in place, broken, until I screwed up the courage to restore it entirely. Neighbors thought me crazy. Now they are envious. Wife is a convert as well. Even after spending lot's of money when we already had heat! That's a big deal!

The difference in comfort is that tangible.

RobG

I would keep the steam and use a Mini-Split heat pump with ceiling cassettes. They are very unobtrusive. Use the heat pump for the shoulder seasons and the steam for the rest. It also gives you a redundant system so that as long as you have electricity you will always have heat.

DMRuke

Thanks a lot all; definitely good points. I'm probably spoiled to the comfort after 25 years of steam.

sonofaplumber

You should consider keeping the steam and investing in a mini split heat pump / AC unit as already suggested.

IF you do any conversion the farthest I'd go is to convert the Cast Iron rads over for forced hot water only because there are so many high efficiency options out there now especially if you burn gas (low mass, condensing, modulating, ODR, etc).

This would also give you a lot of options on other convectors as well in rooms that you really need the space (toe kick heaters, heated towel rack, retrofit radiant, etc)

Most of the guys on here would say stay with steam. I'd agree but its really only well suited for the highly knowledgeable homeowner or pro (I'm not one) that enjoys routine maintenance.

Comfort wise I think radiant is the best. Then steam, followed by HW rad's, baseboard heat, forced air to be the most uncomfortable and annoying form of heat I've ever dealt with. Except MAYBE for burning firewood

My house had a functioning and fairly efficient forced air furnace that I decommissioned to install a HW boiler and 1907 cast iron radiators throughout with radiant in the kitchen & baths. So I'm headed in the other direction. But hey, they all have their pros and cons, right?

KC_Jones

sonofaplumber said:

Except MAYBE for burning firewood

My parents use the heatalator (sp?) fireplace in their basement almost daily during the winter. They pretty much live down there during winter except for sleeping and cooking (they eat in the basement). Since the forced hot air is so "cold" my mother prefers it down there. I think they maintain a steady 75-78° down there all winter. My father likes it because it's cheaper than the oil for the furnace. It is extra work though.

DMRuke

So there seems to be a pretty universal agreement of steam over forced air, which in further thought I can definitely see/understand why.

But, what are the thoughts in radiant heating through the floor? I know cost is a major factor, but that aside, how would it compare in comfort/performance/efficiency/any other areas to consider?

Thanks again for all the info/feedback.

sonofaplumber

Just about everyone in Maine burns it. I'm definitely tired of the labor involved!

You know the saying, keeps you warm three times. Stacking it, burning it, and lugging the ashes.

Jamie Hall

DMRuke said:

So there seems to be a pretty universal agreement of steam over forced air, which in further thought I can definitely see/understand why.

But, what are the thoughts in radiant heating through the floor? I know cost is a major factor, but that aside, how would it compare in comfort/performance/efficiency/any other areas to consider?

Thanks again for all the info/feedback.

A properly designed and installed radiant heating system through the floor can be wonderfully comfortable. No question. Efficiency will be very similar to a properly functioning steam system -- perhaps a bit higher (but not enough, in this instance, to being even close to being cost-effective!). Is it more comfortable than steam? Not unless your floors are really cold -- and if they are, then that's a heat loss you should deal with separately. There are, in my view, two real drawbacks: the first is that it is slow to respond if you want more heat, for some reason; it can take a day or two to respond to a vacation setback, for instance, rather than a few hours (and routine daily setbacks are really a no-no!). The second is that it should be designed with the floor construction and covering in mind -- which means, among other things, that if you decide, down the road, that you are going to fancy a nice thick rug over the bare hardwood, or vice versa, the system won't be properly matched to that floor any more, and won't work as well.

sonofaplumber

Jamie Hall said:

A properly designed and installed radiant heating system through the floor can be wonderfully comfortable. No question. Efficiency will be very similar to a properly functioning steam system -- perhaps a bit higher (but not enough, in this instance, to being even close to being cost-effective!). Is it more comfortable than steam? Not unless your floors are really cold -- and if they are, then that's a heat loss you should deal with separately. There are, in my view, two real drawbacks: the first is that it is slow to respond if you want more heat, for some reason; it can take a day or two to respond to a vacation setback, for instance, rather than a few hours (and routine daily setbacks are really a no-no!). The second is that it should be designed with the floor construction and covering in mind -- which means, among other things, that if you decide, down the road, that you are going to fancy a nice thick rug over the bare hardwood, or vice versa, the system won't be properly matched to that floor any more, and won't work as well.

Totally agree.

A radiant retrofit isn't nearly as slow in response as a slab would be though. The bright side to that slow response of heating a big mass is the one heat call per day in the dead of winter, and retaining and releasing that heat energy slow and steady. Really what CI rads and radiant systems have in common.

FranklinD

I'll give my opinion:

I grew up in a house with an original, 1905 or so gravity hot water system, cast iron rads, big pipes, and so on.

When I got married, we rented a house for five years. It was small and newly renovated, with forced air. The first thing I noticed is that my allergies were now WORSE in the winter (usually winter is my reprieve from all that). Second was that the thing cycled constantly. Hot cold hot cold hot cold. Nothing like a warm wind on and off all day and night. I understand that's gotten better now with ECM fans and all that. But It's not for me. It's noisy, it's dusty, and the temp always seemed 5 degrees lower than the set point.

When we looked at houses, we both decided we wanted an old house with good bones. Our current home was built in 1914, is full of plaster and original woodwork, and has nice big cast iron radiators. Wouldn't trade it for anything. We keep the temp at 67 because any higher feels too warm for us in the winter. My advice would be to stay with what you know is comfortable.

A friend of mine has a very similar house in the Twin Cities and decided to add a mini split with two cassettes, one in the living room and one upstairs, and they do great for air conditioning.

Gordy

No one has asked the question.

How does your present steam system work?
How is the cost to heat?

If you are tightening up the envelope in your remodel then your present steam boiler may be over sized, along with your present radiation. Not a bad thing. You may be able to use a smaller steam boiler, saving you money.

I will leave that to the steam experts as to how envelope upgrades effect over radiation in a steam system.

Personally I would take the money to do envelope upgrades over converting a heating cooling system from scratch when one is in place,all ready.

Gordy

Again I'm not a steam heat guru. But to me over radiation in a tightened envelope means heat calls are satisfied more quickly so decreased boiler run times along with possibly smaller boiler, but radiation SF plays into how much smaller you can go.

On the other hand with FHW heating it opens up lots of new doors for same scenario. Much smaller appliance of a modulating condensing variety, lower water temps do to over radiation to help that boiler work more efficiently.

Still not worth the cost to convert from a well tuned steam system.

DMRuke

The present system could probably use some love; it's often pretty noisy, and doesn't seem to be doing the job as well as it could be (but this may be due to poor insulation & windows, which are to be replaced soon).

vaporvac

How old is your house? Radiators themselves help define the look of an old house as do original windows, which when used in conjunction with proper storms achieve R valuesequal to that of new, non-fixable, plastic replacements. Please, at least keep them somewhere on-premises if replacing. I wouldn't consider an old house with "new" windows. Better to upgrade insulation and sealing. JMO. However, these changes won't help your system work better, but may influence how quickly your house heats and how long it retains it.

In terms of the HW baseboard changeover gains you as you can't put furniture in front of baseboard either. Also, steam uses the process of latent heat, so it's not like the extra energy used to make it goes to waste. Plus, you'll NEVER see a payback from such a change
The pros and HOs on this site can help you get your current steam system in top form.
p.s. Spacepak is also an option if you need A/C.

DMRuke

House was built in 1945, but it's been renovated at least 2-3 times in the years since then (most recent probably in the 80s). The house itself doesn't look/feel very old, and the windows were long since replaced with vinyl (before me). So it's not really in the type of condition where it would be worth preserving a historical/rustic look.

By work better, which I forgot to mention, is that despite being gas and gas being cheap in the Northeast, I would still see $250-$400/m heating bills over the winter. That's a big part of why I was considering an upgrade/replacement.

Steamhead

DMRuke said:

By work better, which I forgot to mention, is that despite being gas and gas being cheap in the Northeast, I would still see $250-$400/m heating bills over the winter. That's a big part of why I was considering an upgrade/replacement.

We've reduced some of our steam customers' fuel consumption by up to a third- WITHOUT converting to hot water. Don't waste your money converting.

Gordy

Circa 1945 look at the envelope

vaporvac

I get it @DMRuke . I didn't realize, although we see why they're called "replacement" windows; one NEEDs to replace them every twenty years or so.
@gordy is correct and it seems like you're heading in the correct direction, insulating the walls, attic, basement rim joists, sealing around the window trim and adding a vapor barrier. Don't forget any knee walls if you have them. These improvements will make the most difference in your heating bills as they will vastly decrease your heat loss.
Perhaps you could tell us more about your current system, the rad edr, boiler type and size, as well as some pics of the boiler and its near boiler piping. Take them as far away as possible. Is your system one-pipe or two ie. do your rad have one or two pipes attached to them? what do you keep your pressuretrol set at and does it shut down the boiler on pressure or temp? These things might explain the issues you're currently experiencing and are generally not too hard to fix.
p.s. Don't assume just because some unfortunate changes were made to your house that it isn't worth preserving or putting to rights .Old doesn't mean rustic necessarily and some wonderful sturdy homes came out of the post-war building boom. Please don't take offense at my comments in this regard. It's one of my passions. C

BobC

Before deciding on what kind of a heating system I would have a blower door test done so you know what kind of problem you might be facing. Knowing what kind of air infiltration you are facing may highlight some problems you weren't aware of.

How well were the wall and ceiling cavities insulated? Insulation is often done incorrectly by contractors who don't truly understand it.

You should also have a good steam man evaluate the system you have now to see what problems exist and what might have to be done to correct them. Steam systems are very simple but if something is not installed right you could be burning fuel to no good end.

Bob

DMRuke

@Gordy, what is meant by look at the envelope?

@vaporvac, yeah, insulation is definitely a major problem in the house. While pulling down the old sheet rock & plaster on the 2nd floor I found entire sections of wall that had no insulation at all, so that combined with replacing drafty windows should hopefully help quite a bit.

I attached a few pictures of my existing system.

@Bobc I actually did try to have a blower test done, but there's some asbestos lingering in the basement that has to be removed before they'll do it.

vaporvac

I think gordy meant the house envelope, ie. it probably needs insulating and that's where the biggest savings will be found.

How long has that piping insulation been gone...that in and of itself can lead to heating issues and higher bills. Do you know the pressures at which your boiler runs,
Have you ever measured the EDR of your rads to see how it compares to the boiler's sq ft of steam rating of 469? If you don't know how, we can help you, but that's where you need to begin.

DMRuke

Yeah, parts of the envelope were found to be bare and without insulation behind the walls. I'm definitely making sure it's all fully insulated as I renovate.

There is a main ~3-4" pipe that is insulated, circling the perimeter of the basement. The pipes that branch off of it are not though (both the ones feeding it from the furnace, and the ones that go up into the house). As far as I know, those pipes have never had insulation around them.

Not sure of the pressure it runs at, but I might try and start it up tonight to find out (getting cold out!).

And no, never measured the EDR (not even sure what it is!). I'd be interested in giving it a shot though.

Gordy

The envelope, insulation etc. the gift that keeps on giving.

Steamhead

That long main needs to be vented well. How long is it, what is the exact pipe diameter, and what vent is on it now?

vaporvac

p.s. That boiler is not what I would call efficient, by any means, but I'm not sure what the payback would be on replacing it before it's gone. Do you need to add much water, besides that added during your weekly LWCO blow-down?
I'll try and find a pdf for measuring the edr of your rads. Each radiator gives off a specific amount of heat (btus) that's a function of its height, width and depth and is referred as its edr or square feet of steam. A pic of a representative rad would help ID which type you have. That will also help us id if it's a one or two-pipe system. That's important for trouble shooting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_of_direct_radiation
http://www.antiqueplumbingandradiators.com/askpage.html

BobC

Utica boilers are very fussy when it comes to piping and that looks like they never even looked at the piping diagram. Get a qualified steam guy to look at it.

EDR is the sq footage of radiators attached to the system. The Boiler sq ft of steam rating should be about the same as the system EDR or less - the boiler sq ft of steam has a 33% piping pickup factor that is not included in that number. If your piping is reasonable well insulated that 33% is probably to generous.

Bob

DMRuke

I'll have to come back to this tomorrow, but here's a picture of a radiator in the meantime. Most of them are about this size or slightly bigger. Four total on the first floor (including a smaller half-sized one in the bathroom) and four on the second floor.

Thanks again all - super helpful community here!

delta T

Judging by that radiator you have a one pipe steam system, so retrofitting to hot water is not easy, or even necessarilly feasable at all. I would second, third, fourth (whatever we are on now) and say stick with steam. Your best money will be spent on insulation, and preventing air leakage. As my dad says, the only thing you accomplish with a new highly efficient heating system in a leaky poorly insulated house, is to very efficiently throw your heat outside.

A heat loss and EDR is absolutely necessary to determine what is the best course of action, you do not want to make the house so tight that the steam system is so eversized as to make it short cycle excesively. Definitely get a good steam guy out to evaluate the system, most likely you will need some new vents, and possibly some changes to the near boiler piping, and some piping insulation, but beyond that you should not need any really major work done, and I am sure that between system fixes and insulation upgrades your heating bills can be lowered significantly.

Snowmelt

Where are you located? Keep steam just update and get ductless. Or convert to baseboard, possibly radiant floor if your looking for long term nice heat and saving money.

Bio

If I had deep pocket$, I'll get myself a mod/con with trv's on all panel radiators where each rad/trv will call for heat, no worries about overheating/under-heating any room

cgutha

I'm new at steam / water heat and may not know what I am doing.
As I look at the picture of the radiator, it appears that the sections are connected both on the top as well as the bottom. Although this has only one pipe running to it, it could convert easily to a two pipe system.
(My radiators have only a bottom connection and a stay bolt at the top making conversion much more difficult.)
Am I reading this correctly?