Options After install

cubicacres

We signed up for our install by the end of the month with a local contractor due to the limitations of city & state licensing required, that prevented us from bringing an out of state installer in. It appears hiring anyone to consult & optimize things has a lower registration & licensing requirement than a full install, so this limited us to local installers that were available in the next 2 weeks.

When our contractor installs the WMC EG-75, I think Dan's article mentioned cold-skimming by slowly raising the water level to the middle of the skim tapping pipe and letting it dribble out for several hours-and doing this again in a few more days, then weeks, then maybe each year or so to let the oil move around and drain out. Is this what most of you have done, or do you recommend another way to isolate the oil further down the pipes for removal?

ChrisJ

Wash it out with a wand like Gerry Gill does.
https://youtu.be/q1tw9rz-pUk

Followed by a cold skim. Let it run for a month, and do it again. You may need to do more after that but you'll have to wait and see.

I highly recommend using the drain on your water heater to feed the wand. It's usually convenient and supplies hot water that washes oils out better.

KC_Jones

cubicacres said:

We signed up for our install by the end of the month with a local contractor due to the limitations of city & state licensing required, that prevented us from bringing an out of state installer in. It appears hiring anyone to consult & optimize things has a lower registration & licensing requirement than a full install, so this limited us to local installers that were available in the next 2 weeks.

Good luck with your install and post some pics when it's finished so we can see how they did. I hope your contract was VERY SPECIFIC about proper piping and following the manual and NO copper on the steam carrying pipes.

Dave0176

KC_Jones said:

cubicacres said:

We signed up for our install by the end of the month with a local contractor due to the limitations of city & state licensing required, that prevented us from bringing an out of state installer in. It appears hiring anyone to consult & optimize things has a lower registration & licensing requirement than a full install, so this limited us to local installers that were available in the next 2 weeks.

Good luck with your install and post some pics when it's finished so we can see how they did. I hope your contract was VERY SPECIFIC about proper piping and following the manual and NO copper on the steam carrying pipes.

Yes do not let the contractor control you, you are the boss, be specific with what you want, and be sure he understands, this is a life time project for you.

vaporvac

Any chance you could post a couple of their work beforehand. Better safe than sorry.

cubicacres

Wow..that's a lot of oil. Have you ever had problems with all that oil clogging up the floor drain when it cools & congeals?

As far as warm weather shut-downs or other economizing devices go, does anyone have experience with using something like the Tekmar 279 steam control for single-pipe steam with a fixed (non-dual or variable burner) on our WMC EG-75? Tekamar's data sheet for the product was an interesting read, but some people are concerned that adjusting the run time for outdoor heat loss differences and trying to be "too smart" for a steam boiler with temp. sensing the return line can be problematic.

Our fallback was a simple outdoor setpoint control for warm weather shut down like the old American Stablis Enertrol we saw down there. It has been in the off position since we got the building, so any improvement at all should help from where we are now with just a single indoor thermostat on our 5 unit apartment. We don't mind paying an extra $900 for a device like the Tekmar, as long as it can pay for itself in 3-5 years of fuel savings.

ChrisJ

cubicacres said:

Wow..that's a lot of oil. Have you ever had problems with all that oil clogging up the floor drain when it cools & congeals?

As far as warm weather shut-downs or other economizing devices go, does anyone have experience with using something like the Tekmar 279 steam control for single-pipe steam with a fixed (non-dual or variable burner) on our WMC EG-75? Tekamar's data sheet for the product was an interesting read, but some people are concerned that adjusting the run time for outdoor heat loss differences and trying to be "too smart" for a steam boiler with temp. sensing the return line can be problematic.

Our fallback was a simple outdoor setpoint control for warm weather shut down like the old American Stablis Enertrol we saw down there. It has been in the off position since we got the building, so any improvement at all should help from where we are now with just a single indoor thermostat on our 5 unit apartment. We don't mind paying an extra $900 for a device like the Tekmar, as long as it can pay for itself in 3-5 years of fuel savings.

You seem too concerned with what others are concerned about.

I use an EcoSteam outdoor reset and wouldn't live without it. I know very little about the Tekmar but I'm guessing it's far better than just the cheesy thermostat.

"Trying to be too smart for a steam boiler" makes no sense.

j a_2

Honestly if you have to instruct the installer, your better off being cold....it's just so hard for me to believe, there are not more heating guys out here that can't understand the simplicity of a steam system...Near boiler piping is as simple as the old erector sets...Christ, how hard is it...the true issues are repairing the issues out in the system that have been hacked and neglected over the years...Mr. Handyman, Mr. Know it all neighbor,Mr guy at work, Mr home cheapeo, and Mr. cheapeo home owner who won't admit he redid his kitchen or bathroom and just slightly moved his radiator...No homeowner will admit it...Its the sucker that buys his handy dandy house with nice floors, pottys, paint, roof, garden that gets screwed...Seen it way to many times....

j a_2

8 K down the tubes on a bosched install..me, I would rather be cold...By the time owners find us its usually a last resort...I happen to know a lot of really good steam guys that do not post, for one reason or another...that's there choice...we are just a bunch of guys that either have time or do care and just want to converse... That's it....Being a predomider as some are, or trying to increase sales, or get a rise out of seeing there name in the lights is not what this is about

cubicacres

Thanks to Dan's books & all your help on this site, we think we have some good things going for us so far on our WMC EG-75 install next week for our small (4,200 sq ft, 5 unit) apt. bldg:

1. Using both 3 inch risers at least 30 inches above the boiler jacket on a 14% smaller new boiler that matched our EDR radiator calcs with a 31-32% pickup factor
2. 4 inch drop header ( both our riser & header specs written into the contract)
3. Their engineer present for the install
4. New 1A Hoffman adjustable vents in all 22 radiators in the building, since we don't know how long it's been since they were last replaced
5. 2 more Hoffman Main vents, and we can ask Dave to stop over later this season when he's in Milwaukee to help us tweek a few things for balancing & anything else we could do.
6. VXT-24 automatic water feeder with meter for monitoring intake water
7. Tekmar #279 boiler control unit with outdoor & an indoor #76 sensor-we're hoping this investment will pay off over time, and we might be able to scale the boiler down a bit from 100% if we find we don't need that 32% pickup factor and this doesn't cause any boiler issues (our installer is nervous about the Tekmar or any other warm weather shut-off on steam systems, but we want to give it a shot
8. Optional mud-leg valve on time & materials basis can be added
9. We can keep the project within our budget by removing the old boiler ourselves & enlarging the combustion air intake
10. We'll have Dan's Greening Steam & the WMC install manual with us in the boiler room each day of the install to help guide us as we go

cubicacres

Thanks for the Tekmar tips. It sounds like for steam systems, the Tekmar simply increases the time between firing the boiler again each time on warmer days, or when it senses warmer condensate/steam is still present at the end of the lines with the sensor. It can't make "warmer or cooler" steam-that's just for hot water systems that can be adjusted, right? Having the same firing time of 15-20 minutes with longer rest periods on warmer days compared to colder days with shorter rest periods should save a lot of energy and make things more comfortable for tennants. Has anyone ever had problems with using a Tekmar for steam? I don't know of any reasons the Tekmar would shorten boiler life, ruin burners, etc. if it's firing about the same 15-20 minutes each time, with simply longer rest periods between firings?

cubicacres

Thanks-the Tekmar D279 data brochure mentions a minimum on time (time for steam to reach the farthest radiator per an initial time trial) on page 5 & 18 that can go from 0 to 50 minutes. Would this be the minimum burner firing time, and be good to set to a minimum of, say 15 minutes? Or does this just waist 10 minutes of heat if it only needs 5 minutes at 55 degrees?

We removed the WMC EGH-85 today An hour to remove the jacket, controls & piping, and an hour to bring the sections out with the 3 of us. Once the tie rods were cut, a gentle push let the sections shift apart for easy removal via a dolly.

We removed the wet return piping due to heavy corrosion, and should be ready for the new install the end of next week.

I just wanted to verify-on single-pipe steam, should the drop header, and/or the header section have some pitch up & away from the boiler towards the main lines to allow steam to move upwards, instead of a level (no) pitch through the header?

KC_Jones

You have it backwards. Slope on the steam system is for the water/condensate to flow. If you pitch that header up towards the main all you will do is trap water in the header. The header should ALWAYS be pitched towards the equalizer line that returns to the bottom of the boiler. It doesn't need much slope, but it does need it.

cubicacres

Thanks for the pitch info. Does that mean:
1. A little pitch (in the horizontal header run only) towards the vertical pipe equalizer & hartford loop area at the opposite side from where the risers attatch?
2.The condensate return pipes should slope downhill a little towards the boiler from the radiator risers, so that condensate water can drip towards the boiler again for re-use.

KC_Jones

Yes that is correct. You have to think like water. The basic goal is to get all the condensate back into the boiler. Water flows downhill so you need to give it a downhill path to follow.

cubicacres

Here's a picture our our current boiler room with the old boiler removed. We removed the wet return near-boiler piping due to corrosion & visible leaks where they rise up to the 3 condensate return pipes, so we shouldn't have to worry about that wet piping anymore. We have 3 condensate returns coming back into the boiler room in the photo (plus the old gas line) that I think are 1 or 1.25 inch pipe. If we have a new 4 inch header (used to be 3 inch), should we increase the size of the equalizer pipe up from the 1.25 inches it used to be, and the old 1.25 inch wet return & hartford loop pipe size as well?

LionA29

Is there a follow up on the install and Tekmar?

cubicacres

So far we're using 20% more gas than before, with a 15% smaller BTU input boiler, so some adjusting is necessary. My other posts mention our heat loss calcs & other metrics. We suspect reducing the boiler %, steam established, and other settings may be the answer.

Jamie Hall

Maybe I've missed something, but... is there any pressure control on that boiler?

And do I presume that you did replace the wet return piping which got removed with a new wet return piping setup?

nicholas bonham-carter

When you say that 20% more gas is being used, has that usage been adjusted for the degree-days, or just compared without any correcting figure?--NBC

cubicacres

We adjusted for the degree days on the utility bill. Our new boiler-room piping shortened the wet return length next to the boiler about 2 feet with the new install.
We also noticed our Tekmar design temp. setting was 100% boiler run time at 15 degrees, and adjusted that down to 100% at 0 degrees, so that might be a major factor.

Steamhead

Cubicacres, I'll be in Milwaukee next week- PM me if you want to get together and have a look at this.

cubicacres

Thanks Steamhead. I PM'd you and will wait to hear from you.