Square feet of steam question....

KC_Jones

He is the one that wrote the venting book that is for sale in the store. I highly recommend this, available digitally and the 10 bucks goes to charity so you can feel good and get good information.
http://store.heatinghelp.com/Balancing-Steam-Systems-p/300.htm

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

I disagree.

A steam system is usually not "fairly hot" when it starts. It has been sitting, typically, for at least 30 minutes.

A dead cold start is more representative than a hot start (5 minutes).

My system constantly starts after only sitting 10-15 minutes running 2 CPH and in very cold weather (below zero) it starts after sitting for 5 minutes running 3 CPH.

So... ?

So, you run 2 CPH.

Not typical.

And, even with 2 CPH, most systems that have 2X for radiation still won't start every 15 minutes with the exception of the design day.

If your radiation matches your heatloss and you run 2CPH, only in that situation will the hot start be more representative.

We can argue this all day but fact is my test is easy and will yield good results. In the end the system will be proven to vent as fast as it will ever need. My picture above of the EcoSteam shows 90 seconds to get the steam to the end of a 29' main which includes the time for the damper to open, burner to light and to get the boiler going again.

Don't make me bust out the Penny meme!

ChrisJ

Just for that, NO PENNY FOR YOU!

I'm not using a database, I'm using Gerry Gill's method of vent it fast enough that it acts like an open pipe. This is also why I want to switch to a solenoid as my understanding is the hot air rushing out of a well insulated main starts to close the Gorton's early.

I believe @Steamhead has mentioned running many systems on 2 CPH and 3 CPH.

ChrisJ

Fair enough.

Bio

Best to compare with vent removed, clock it and try to match it without overspending on vent, what you have now sounds as good as its gonna get, open pipe (3/4"?) will be the outlier

BrianT1077

@Bio, I am going to try to run that test tonight. That's a good point made by you and Hatterasguy. Worth the test.

BrianT1077

@ Bio, @ Hatterasguy, @ChrisJ, The results are in, I ran the test on the 1 main with no vent, Cold Start was 9m 56s and the main got warm then hot with some steam coming out at 8m 05s.

Bio

So we can say your main venting you have now is as good as an open pipe, is not going to get better than that, many like to say you can't over vent, but the truth is you can over spend on unnecessary main vents
There's a say "vent your main fast and radiators slow but complete" the idea is to make steam manifolds out of the mains and promote even distribution to all radiator.
I would use Hoffman 40 on all radiators, they are great equalizing radiator vents, that's what I use, nice and quiet

https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/taking-another-look-at-steam-boiler-sizing-methods/

BrianT1077

@Bio, I was thinking that maybe I should add an antler with 2-3 gorton 1 vents and that should do the trick. What does everyone think? Also should I make the other main 2 vents with an antler?

BrianT1077

I also found my thermostat programmed wrong so I set the cycling for steam, gravity.

BrianT1077

@Hatterasguy, the cold start time that I included was the boiler start up from not running at all, everything is cold time until heat reaches the header. Then I restart the clock from the header to the open vent point. That time was 8m 5s.

Fred

I think I suggested a Gorton #2 on that long main and moving the Gorton #1 that is there now to the other main. , very early in this string. That gives you the equalivant of 3.5 Gorton #1's on the long main and two Gorton #2's on the other main. That should work fine (if you have the head room for the Gorton #2, about 7") That is the least costly and less concern for failures down the road with multiple Gorton #1's but either way will work, if you don't have the head room.

BrianT1077

What are everyone's thoughts on my install of 4 Gorton # 1's? I did it this way to keep the pitch of the main return pipe.

BobC

That will work but the vent directly above the pipe will be subject to more abuse, moving that vent to the end would be better.

I wonder if it would be worth adding a good size nipple and cap where that vent was to act as a spring to absorb any surge that might be harmful to vents?

Bob

BrianT1077

@Hatterasguy, the times are in for the new test, 8min 45sec.

BrianT1077

Update: The inspector was here today and says the plumber has to redo the header above the boiler. It is not pitched towards the equalizer, it is pitched towards the riser coming out of the boiler. He said that will sure mess up the operation of the boiler.

BrianT1077

I tested the system today from a warm start and it took 5m 30sec for the big main to get hot.

vr608

Is your new test after the piping was redone per the inspector's notes?

BrianT1077

@vr608, No the piping changes have not been made yet.

Fred

That's great. I assume the header has been properly pitched?

BrianT1077

@Fred, No the piping changes have not been made yet.

Fred

BrianT1077 said:

@Fred, No the piping changes have not been made yet.

Get that done because when the weather drops and the boiler runs longer you will get some banging.

BrianT1077

Update: The original installers were here last Saturday and they corrected the pitch of the header. The inspector is coming out next week to re-inspect. The inspector also wants the installer here to do a gas line pressure test while he is here. I have been doing some reading about chimneys and part of my install was relining the chimney. What was used was an aluminum liner. I converted from oil and I am sure my house was originally coal. Now from what I understand aluminum does not hold up well with an older chimney used for coal and oil. Does anyone have any idea on how long this liner will last? What are your suggestions? I am sure I can not convince the installer to change it to stainless steel for no charge. I also have to re-skim the boiler now since they did pipe work and I did get 2 more adjustable radiator vents and did some balancing within the house and the heat feels better.

ChrisJ

BrianT1077 said:

Update: The original installers were here last Saturday and they corrected the pitch of the header. The inspector is coming out next week to re-inspect. The inspector also wants the installer here to do a gas line pressure test while he is here. I have been doing some reading about chimneys and part of my install was relining the chimney. What was used was an aluminum liner. I converted from oil and I am sure my house was originally coal. Now from what I understand aluminum does not hold up well with an older chimney used for coal and oil. Does anyone have any idea on how long this liner will last? What are your suggestions? I am sure I can not convince the installer to change it to stainless steel for no charge. I also have to re-skim the boiler now since they did pipe work and I did get 2 more adjustable radiator vents and did some balancing within the house and the heat feels better.

I really can't answer this, but do you know who manufactured the liner? If so I'd call them and ask them. If they say it's no good you can have it replaced and if they say it's fine you can feel safe with it.

I'm pretty sure the liner(s) my guys attempted to install in my chimney before tearing it down were all stainless steel and it was previously used for oil and before that coal.

Charlie from wmass

Boiler is undersized for the system.
Boiler may heat home to your comfort level, it may not.
effective EDR of radiators grows as room temperature is lowered. This boiler means setting your temperature and not messing with much in the way of a range or you with struggle to recover from setback. The issue with undersized boilers is the radiator that does not heat is chose by the physics of your system not you unless you control the physics by restricting venting speed of certain radiators.
I am not in the agreement, as much as I respect Dave, Chris, and the other guys who go with the smaller boilers.
In my experience undersized boilers consume more fuel on systems than properly sized to the edr boilers.
The use of TRV's would change that but the systems I have had this experience with did not use or want to install TRV's.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

Boiler is undersized for the system.
Boiler may heat home to your comfort level, it may not.
effective EDR of radiators grows as room temperature is lowered. This boiler means setting your temperature and not messing with much in the way of a range or you with struggle to recover from setback. The issue with undersized boilers is the radiator that does not heat is chose by the physics of your system not you unless you control the physics by restricting venting speed of certain radiators.
I am not in the agreement, as much as I respect Dave, Chris, and the other guys who go with the smaller boilers.
In my experience undersized boilers consume more fuel on systems than properly sized to the edr boilers.
The use of TRV's would change that but the systems I have had this experience with did not use or want to install TRV's.

How exactly did you come to this conclusion?

Robert O'Connor_12

The location of that backflow preventer may be an issue as well. Boilers make pressure, and when that pressure and water meet that bfp will leak.

Charlie from wmass

It is not about it being in the building. It is about it's distribution in the building. The larger the building the worse the effect.

Charlie from wmass

Steam is lazy. The first radiators to get steam will keep the steam. Chris I compared the edr to the boiler rating.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

Steam is lazy. The first radiators to get steam will keep the steam. Chris I compared the edr to the boiler rating.

The object is to get all radiators to get steam at once otherwise the system isn't balanced.

That's why mine works.
Although to be honest, even when my TRVs open mid cycle those radiators still heat some how.

I don't agree with your "In my experience undersized boilers consume more fuel on systems than properly sized to the edr boilers" comment. The only way this is possible is if the radiator near the thermostat is one being starved, otherwise the system must use less fuel, even if other rooms are cool or cold. Yes, those are both bad but the fuel consumption still has not increased.

Is it difficult to balance a system with an undersized boiler? Yes, I'll agree with that I'll even say it's extremely difficult perhaps impossible if you're not living there. But there's no way an undersized boiler uses more fuel in a properly balanced steam system.

BrianT1077

Hello everyone, how are you? Update on stuff I have done and found in the house. Just a note, I have We Got Steam Heat and also the Balancing Steam Systems books. Great reads, I enjoy reading them. So I now have Vent-Rite adjustable #1's on all 8 of my larger radiators (3 smaller radiators with 2 Gorton's and 1 Maid O Mist) . I have been playing the balancing act with them and it seems they are all getting steam at the same time (Wife happier) with exception to the one in the kitchen and no steam to the upstairs bathroom, which I will talk about later. I got 6 new vents last year and I got 2 more a few weeks ago. House now seems to be heating evenly and is nice. Room with thermostat (Living Room with fireplace, I plan on moving the thermostat to the 1st floor hallway is possible, due to the fireplace always turning it off) was heating the fastest and comfortable with the rest of the house lagging behind and colder especially the 2nd floor. I am also starting to insulate any steam pipes that are not insulated that I have access to. Playing around in the drop ceiling in the laundry room of my basement, I found the pipes that come off the 1 main and are suppose to heat the kitchen and upstairs bathroom. The pipe is a copper 1 inch pipe off the black pipe original main and the copper pipe is not insulated. I do have pics. I also found a capped off pipe in crawl space where the kitchen radiator originally was located. So at some point a "knucklehead" moved the kitchen radiator and used copper to pipe it in along with the upstairs bathroom radiator which is supposedly still in it's original location. I don't know, it seems to me that they both were originally on the same line. Not 100% though. This would explain why the kitchen radiator heats last and doesn't get much steam at all and the 2nd floor bathroom radiator remains cold, the pipe and valve doesn't even get hot, but the copper pipe in the basement is hot. I tried an experiment last winter though, (still wish I found this website then instead of this past Sept.) I turned off every radiator in the house but the 2nd floor bathroom and fired up the old system, well it got hot real fast proving to me there was no blockage in the pipe. As I started turning on the other radiators it eventually went cold. So I do know with proper repairs the entire system will probably work. I am going to upload a few pics of the copper piping in the basement. Thoughts? I can not wait to read your responses. If you need anymore info please ask. Also I have been in contact with Dave0176 about my system and plan on having him come out and evaluating the entire house and him making his recommendations after everything passes inspection. This Thursday the inspector is coming back to check on the fixed header pipe pitching issue. One other thing, I have been skimming the boiler and the quality of the steam has seemed to have improve.

Charlie from wmass

The thermostat in a four story building is seldom on the third or fourth floor. So the boiler sends steam to male those floors 75 degrees and the first and second are 62. Or one wing gets steam and the other freezes. Meaning to get heat to 65 on the east wing you need to heat the west wing to 78. Too long of run time means heat loss up the chimney. How much heat goes up a chimney when the boiler is off on pressure?

Fred

Just hack the joists up!! Is there any pitch in those horizontal runs so that water can get back to the mains? I'm sure the original runs to the bathroom and Kitchen rads were probably inch and a quarter. If so, did they bush the connection to the valve or the radiator in a way that might cause water to sit in the bottom of the radiator?

ChrisJ

Fred said:

Just hack the joists up!! Is there any pitch in those horizontal runs so that water can get back to the mains? I'm sure the original runs to the bathroom and Kitchen rads were probably inch and a quarter. If so, did they bush the connection to the valve or the radiator in a way that might cause water to sit in the bottom of the radiator?

Do what now?

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

Just hack the joists up!! Is there any pitch in those horizontal runs so that water can get back to the mains? I'm sure the original runs to the bathroom and Kitchen rads were probably inch and a quarter. If so, did they bush the connection to the valve or the radiator in a way that might cause water to sit in the bottom of the radiator?

Do what now?

My comment was that someone really hacked up those joist by cutting through them like that to run that copper. Enlarge the second picture and take a look. Lol

ChrisJ

Fred said:

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

Just hack the joists up!! Is there any pitch in those horizontal runs so that water can get back to the mains? I'm sure the original runs to the bathroom and Kitchen rads were probably inch and a quarter. If so, did they bush the connection to the valve or the radiator in a way that might cause water to sit in the bottom of the radiator?

Do what now?

My comment was that someone really hacked up those joist by cutting through them like that to run that copper. Enlarge the second picture and take a look. Lol

Oh, I thought you were saying to hack them up.