Square feet of steam question....

ChrisJ

BrianT1077 said:

I have to make a correction to the post about the old oil boiler cycling in Feb. I found the screen shots on my phone which are from Jan 7, 2015, even though it ran a lot in Feb also. The first pic is how long it was off, next pic is how long it ran until it turned off again. These times were basically consistent.

How was the building temperature?
Even if a system runs 40 minutes out of the hour in a super cold night that's good.

BrianT1077

@ChrisJ, it was cold, there was -15F wind chill factors that night (I looked up the weather in the area). Jan and Feb were totally terrible this past winter.

ChrisJ

BrianT1077 said:

@ChrisJ, it was cold, there was -15F wind chill factors that night (I looked up the weather in the area). Jan and Feb were totally terrible this past winter.

How was it in the house? Heated well in all rooms? Any balancing issues, cold rooms, hot rooms etc?

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

Whatever Chris. Let's get back to helping this HO get the best fix he can get while this is a new install. You may want to relook at some of Dan's books regarding "Breathing" Even if you don't buy that, I'd much rather have my system cycle and take advantage of the residual heat coming off of those cast iron radiators, with no fuel consumption during that 30 to 40 minute window between cycles.

I don't need to relook at Dan's books.
He was talking about keeping pressure low so vents can re-open and let remaining air out of the system. Nothing about letting a system shut down to breath.

No such thing as residual heat. You get out of a radiator (or pipe) 100% of what you put in. If the radiator is dissipating 100% of what a boiler creates and the room wants it the boiler can run all night long.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Vents open and close on temp, not pressure although pressure can prevent them from reopening.He also speaks to allowing the boiler to cycle so tha the vents can open periodically. You are right, energy is not created or destroyed but that certainly doesn't suggest tha it isn't retained/released at the same rate. There is residual heat released by those cast iron radiators, long past the time the boiler stops using fuel.

BrianT1077

@ChrisJ To me it was ok, my wife, well she is always cold. Some rooms were off, I think the system needs balancing also. It was our first winter in the house. Yes the upstairs bathroom radiator never seems to work, even the pipe is cold. I did get it to work during one experiment of shutting down most of the other radiators in the house, so I know its not a blocked pipe. We do have adjustable vents on most of the radiators.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

Whatever Chris. Let's get back to helping this HO get the best fix he can get while this is a new install. You may want to relook at some of Dan's books regarding "Breathing" Even if you don't buy that, I'd much rather have my system cycle and take advantage of the residual heat coming off of those cast iron radiators, with no fuel consumption during that 30 to 40 minute window between cycles.

I don't need to relook at Dan's books.
He was talking about keeping pressure low so vents can re-open and let remaining air out of the system. Nothing about letting a system shut down to breath.

No such thing as residual heat. You get out of a radiator (or pipe) 100% of what you put in. If the radiator is dissipating 100% of what a boiler creates and the room wants it the boiler can run all night long.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Vents open and close on temp, not pressure although pressure can prevent them from reopening.He also speaks to allowing the boiler to cycle so tha the vents can open periodically. You are right, energy is not created or destroyed but that certainly doesn't suggest tha it isn't retained/released at the same rate. There is residual heat released by those cast iron radiators, long past the time the boiler stops using fuel.

Ok,
Why would I want to do this?
It's very important with a TRV, but why would I want to do it with a normal vent?

ChrisJ

BrianT1077 said:

@ChrisJ To me it was ok, my wife, well she is always cold. Some rooms were off, I think the system needs balancing also. It was our first winter in the house. Yes the upstairs bathroom radiator never seems to work, even the pipe is cold. I did get it to work during one experiment of shutting down most of the other radiators in the house, so I know its not a blocked pipe. We do have adjustable vents on most of the radiators.

That's concerning then.
Can you tell us what vents are on all of the radiators, or, were on them last winter?

Also what main vents you have?

There's still hope your new boiler can work, but we need to go over venting first.

Even better, can you do a drawing similar to this? All we need is the radiator size, vent and length pipe going to it. No need to do the pressure drop.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

Whatever Chris. Let's get back to helping this HO get the best fix he can get while this is a new install. You may want to relook at some of Dan's books regarding "Breathing" Even if you don't buy that, I'd much rather have my system cycle and take advantage of the residual heat coming off of those cast iron radiators, with no fuel consumption during that 30 to 40 minute window between cycles.

I don't need to relook at Dan's books.
He was talking about keeping pressure low so vents can re-open and let remaining air out of the system. Nothing about letting a system shut down to breath.

No such thing as residual heat. You get out of a radiator (or pipe) 100% of what you put in. If the radiator is dissipating 100% of what a boiler creates and the room wants it the boiler can run all night long.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Vents open and close on temp, not pressure although pressure can prevent them from reopening.He also speaks to allowing the boiler to cycle so tha the vents can open periodically. You are right, energy is not created or destroyed but that certainly doesn't suggest tha it isn't retained/released at the same rate. There is residual heat released by those cast iron radiators, long past the time the boiler stops using fuel.

Ok,
Why would I want to do this?
It's very important with a TRV, but why would I want to do it with a normal vent?

I'm not sure I understand the question?? If you are asking why would you want a vent to open periodically, I would say because as steam condenses, giving up its heat, that cooled air has to be able to escape to allow more steam in. I know that the heated air expands and as it cools, it shrinks but, with no way to escape, at some point, that cooled air will occupy all the space in a radiator/piping and steam will not be able to flow. I would think that would be the case if the boiler were allowed to continue to produce steam for extended period of time.

BrianT1077

@ChrisJ, I will try and attempt to do that drawing tonight.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

Whatever Chris. Let's get back to helping this HO get the best fix he can get while this is a new install. You may want to relook at some of Dan's books regarding "Breathing" Even if you don't buy that, I'd much rather have my system cycle and take advantage of the residual heat coming off of those cast iron radiators, with no fuel consumption during that 30 to 40 minute window between cycles.

I don't need to relook at Dan's books.
He was talking about keeping pressure low so vents can re-open and let remaining air out of the system. Nothing about letting a system shut down to breath.

No such thing as residual heat. You get out of a radiator (or pipe) 100% of what you put in. If the radiator is dissipating 100% of what a boiler creates and the room wants it the boiler can run all night long.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Vents open and close on temp, not pressure although pressure can prevent them from reopening.He also speaks to allowing the boiler to cycle so tha the vents can open periodically. You are right, energy is not created or destroyed but that certainly doesn't suggest tha it isn't retained/released at the same rate. There is residual heat released by those cast iron radiators, long past the time the boiler stops using fuel.

Ok,
Why would I want to do this?
It's very important with a TRV, but why would I want to do it with a normal vent?

I'm not sure I understand the question?? If you are asking why would you want a vent to open periodically, I would say because as steam condenses, giving up its heat, that cooled air has to be able to escape to allow more steam in. I know that the heated air expands and as it cools, it shrinks but, with no way to escape, at some point, that cooled air will occupy all the space in a radiator/piping and steam will not be able to flow. I would think that would be the case if the boiler were allowed to continue to produce steam for extended period of time.

Air?
In theory if a single pipe system has been running for a long long time, there is no air.

The steam condenses, and pulls more steam into it's space.

ChrisJ

BrianT1077 said:

@ChrisJ, I will try and attempt to do that drawing tonight.

Awesome.
Take your time and get it as accurate as you can.

Fred

We need to make sure you have the max amount of Main venting you can get on those Mains and that all of the radiator vents are working and not stuck closed. The fact that you indicate some of the radiators didn't heat last year could well be a venting issue but it can also be a boiler sizing issue, be it the old boiler or this new one since they are both basically the same size and especially if the plumber just sized the new boiler based on tthe old boiler plate without measuring radiator EDR or asking you about comfort. Tell us the length and diameter of each Main also. That way we can tell you how much Main venting you need on each main.

Fred

Air?
In theory if a single pipe system has been running for a long long time, there is no air.

The steam condenses, and pulls more steam into it's space.
A boiler has no reason to run that long. There is value in the heat radiated from the cast iron radiators after a boiler shut down. IMHO.

Paul48

"forming a white mist of minute water droplets in the air".

And everyone knows, that is not steam.

Fred

Hatterasguy said:

Fred said:

The fact that you indicate some of the radiators didn't heat last year could well be a venting issue but it can also be a boiler sizing issue, be it the old boiler or this new one since they are both basically the same size and especially if the plumber just sized the new boiler based on tthe old boiler plate without measuring radiator EDR or asking you about comfort. Tell us the length and diameter of each Main also. That way we can tell you how much Main venting you need on each main.

This is a factually incorrect statement.

It cannot be a boiler sizing issue under any circumstances.

I asked you to justify the size of the boiler with the expected heatloss of this house and you ignored it for obvious reasons.

How can you suggest this is factually not correct? If a boiler is under-sized enough, you simply can't control where the steam will go. It's going to take the path of least resistance. I know you will say, that can be controled by the size of the vent but even that is difficult given the variables in main size, length, run-out lengths/sizes. There will still be less resistant paths.

As to your comment about me justifying boiler size to the heat loss of this house, I don;'t have a clue what his heat loss is. Just the size of the old and new boilers. Besides, as I told you a few weeks ago, I don't come here to debate your thories. What you have proven to work for you, works for you. I am good with that.
Go find someone else to try to bully. I'm not your guy. The vacuum part, after thinking about it, I agree. Once the air is out of the system, the vents don't need to open anymore but why continue to burn fuel when the boiler can shut down and the cast iron radiators can continue to radiate some heat ?

BrianT1077

@ChrisJ, Just went over that chart, I don't think I can do that in 1 night. Its going to be very hard to measure some pipes. I will have to estimate some. Not sure how they are completely arranged in my house, my house is a tudor house and is very different from a cape cod house design which layouts are fairly easy. Also basement is mostly finished except for where the boiler is. I do have access to the mains though as they run throughout the basement ceiling and are grated, giving the basement some heat.

Fred

Paul48 said:

"forming a white mist of minute water droplets in the air".

And everyone knows, that is not steam.

@Paul48 , LOL, I took that definition down right away after I re-read it. It was a dud!

BrianT1077

@Fred, Here are pics of both my vents on the mains, also if I am doing everything correctly, 1 main is 27 feet, the other is 11 feet.

Fred

Hatterasguy said:

Fred said:

If a boiler is under-sized enough, you simply can't control where the steam will go.

This is a factually incorrect statement.

You can always control where the steam will go with proper venting. You can turn a radiator that has an EDR of 50 into one with an effective EDR of 20 in a normal 20 minute steam cycle.

Try balancing a system where the boiler is significantly under-sized and see how consistent the steam distribution is. Perhaps you can reduce all radiators enough that the thermostat is never satisfied or only the room where the thermostat is satisfied and the rest of the house is cold.
Maybe even with a lot of trial and error. Most Home owners aren't inclined to make a career/hobby of their steam systems. Trying to do so would likely just give another "Black Eye" to perceptions about steam systems.

Fred

BrianT1077 said:

@Fred, Here are pics of both my vents on the mains, also if I am doing everything correctly, 1 main is 27 feet, the other is 11 feet.

@BrianT1077 , That 27 ft Main looks like maybe 2" pipe. The standard recommendation is the equalivent of a Gorton #2 for every 20 ft of 2" Main. I would say that main should have at least one Gorton #2 on it. The Gorton #2 vents about 3 times faster than the Gorton #1 that's on there. I'd then move that Gorton #1 over to the 11 ft Main and put it on an antler with the Gorton #1 that's alreadt there. That should help get the steam moving much faster through your mains to the radiators.

BrianT1077

@Hatterasguy, to make sure I understand you, this is the vent that you are referring to, correct? This vent is above the boiler, this is on a 2 inch pipe, there is a 3 inch pipe above it, if you can see it in the pic.

ChrisJ

BrianT1077 said:

@ChrisJ, Just went over that chart, I don't think I can do that in 1 night. Its going to be very hard to measure some pipes. I will have to estimate some. Not sure how they are completely arranged in my house, my house is a tudor house and is very different from a cape cod house design which layouts are fairly easy. Also basement is mostly finished except for where the boiler is. I do have access to the mains though as they run throughout the basement ceiling and are grated, giving the basement some heat.

Brian,
Please take all of the time you need.

How long ago was the boiler installed? Do you feel you will have any issues getting the installer to replace it if it's too small to work properly?

Right now, my opinion is we need all of the information on your radiation and piping before any decisions can be made. Once we have that we can figure out what to do. I'm guessing whether you have it tonight or Sunday night it won't make any difference. Just please be fairly accurate. If a pipe is 10 feet long we don't need the length down to the inch, the closest foot would be fine.

Radiators be as exact as you can, check them several times.

Fred

Hatterasguy said:

Fred said:

Perhaps you can reduce all radiators enough that the thermostat is never satisfied

That's a factually incorrect statement for any building where the EDR is 2X the heatloss (typical).

It may be factually incorrect "for any building where the EDR is 2X the heatloss". May be typical in your neck of the woods. I'm not sure across the country.

Fred

Brian, I'm assuming the Mains that are "Grated" in the ceiling to provide some heat for the basement are not insulated in those areas. Is that correct? If correct, how much of the Mains have no insulation?

Bio

@BrianT1077 The fact that the old boiler cycle and your main vents are not terribly under vented (by all means upgrade them), on a boiler a tad undersized it should not cycle, so what comes to mind is that you should make your thermostat settings are for steam ( 1 cycle per hour)
Also FYI this boiler is equipped with a Cyclegard LWCO which will cause it to cycle

BrianT1077

@Hatterasguy, yes that vent is a Gorton #1 and was replaced 1 year ago, and yes it is on the return line back to the boiler.

BrianT1077

@Hatterasguy, ok I ran the test you described.
Hand on Header from boiler start: 9 min. 45 sec.
Hand on pipe next to vent: 10 min.

Boiler was in cold state (Not ran since install) when test was started.

BrianT1077

@Hatterasguy, ok sounds good. By antler you mean the picture below correct? Is this something I can easily assemble and buy at any plumbing supply house? I am new to steam systems.

jonny88

Go to ChrisJ picasso pic to see a beautiful antler install for venting that Hatterasguy is referring to.

BobC

If you build an antler make sure it is pitched back towards the pipe it connects to so any water can find it's way out. just enough pitch for water to slow would be fine.

Bob

BrianT1077

@jonny88, how do I see those pictures?

ChrisJ

BrianT1077 said:

@jonny88, how do I see those pictures?

There's a link to my Picasa album in my signature under every message.

BrianT1077

@ChrisJ, I checked it out. Interesting.

ChrisJ

Can't get picture to work

ChrisJ

BrianT1077

@Hatterasguy, I should use qty. 4 Gorton # 1, correct?

ChrisJ

Some may disagree, but I'd time this when the mains are fairly hot.

Meaning, fire the system up, let it heat the radiators some and then shut it down for 5 minutes and fire it back up and time how long it takes for steam to get from the header to the main vent(s).

The fastest times will be when all of the piping is already fairly hot. This is also when the system is going to put the most demand on the main vents to get that air out.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

I disagree.

A steam system is usually not "fairly hot" when it starts. It has been sitting, typically, for at least 30 minutes.

A dead cold start is more representative than a hot start (5 minutes).

My system constantly starts after only sitting 10-15 minutes running 2 CPH and in very cold weather (below zero) it starts after sitting for 5 minutes running 3 CPH.

So... ?

BrianT1077

Thank you, I am going to try to do this by the weekend. Just have to get the parts.

BrianT1077

Maximizing Venting Article

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/p/415/maximizing-your-venting