Sweating copper

FranklinD

Hey everyone,

So I'm rapidly approaching heating season and will be installing the boiler bypass that my 'professional installer' deemed unnecessary last year. After a long winter of watching water temps, guess what? It's necessary. I'm done dealing with that company. I did get some of my money back (there were other issues as well), but anyway, here's my question:

I have done a fair amount of sweating 1/2" and 3/4" copper over the years. I have pretty much all the tools I could need (except ProPress) thanks to my job. Torches - both Mapp, Mapp/O2, and propane, and pipe cutters, and so on.

How different is sweating 1-1/4" copper? I have 2 tee's, 3 90*'s, and one ball valve to sweat. The tees and 90*'s don't really concern me too much, but the ball valve does since it's a big chunk of brass.

Anything to watch out for? Tips? Tricks?

Thanks in advance! I also have several hand valves to repack while the system is drained. Then I can finally rebalance the whole shootin' match once and for all.

ChrisJ

Sweating 1 1/4" copper is the same deal as 1/2" and 3/4" except you're probably going to want to keep the torch moving around the pipe / fitting rather than keeping it in one or two spots.

Try to heat the pipe and fitting as evenly as you can and spread the solder evenly as well. Keep the heat towards the outer edges of the ball valve and have the valve in the 1/2 off/on position not open or closed (handle at 45 deg angle).

I would use the MAPP, doubt O2 is necessary.

Keep flux to a minimum, spread it as thin as you can, no clumps or globs.

ChrisJ

Almost forgot.
Be careful not to get the pipe too hot or you'll cook the flux and never be able to make the joint. If the flame starts to turn green pull it away. Keep it moving around the pipe otherwise.

I'd start on the fittings first just so you get a feel of what you're dealing with.

jonny88

agree with Chris.Most important is to clean your fittings and pipe.Have a clean rag on hand and as you apply heat wipe fitting as flux will run out.Dont overheat valve.Heat pipe first and bring flame to valve and continue to bring flame around valve,dont keep it in one spot.Like Chris said solder fittings first to get a feel.

bob_46

you want the valve in the full open position it protects the teflon from the heat .

ChrisJ

bob said:

you want the valve in the full open position it protects the teflon from the heat .

Here's an email right from Webstone regarding this.
http://www.webstonevalves.com/



Our recommendation when sweating a copper tube or fitting into a ball valve, is to always keep the handle at a 45° angle so as not to build up pressure in the ball or ball cavity. This allows the heat to pass through and around the ball eliminating thermal expansion while protecting the seats. Also, heat should be applied to the piping, not directly to the valve.


Please let me know if you have any further questions.

FranklinD

Thanks, guys. I just ran to get a new tubing cutter. The one I borrowed from work is a 4 wheel cutter and the pins are loose...almost looks like it's cutting threads. No good.

I drained the system down this morning. Amazing how much water the system holds. I always forget (then again I don't exactly drain it often - maybe once every 5 years or so when work needs to be done or a rad moved). Took an eternity. That's those dang 4" mains and tall rads for you I guess.

I appreciate all the advice. I bought an extra ell to practice on...wish I could have more but at $10-12 a fitting it's pricey practice!

FranklinD

I'm lucky in that regard...there was a shower stall in the basement next to the old boiler. When the boiler was going to be replaced, we removed the stall (it was never used and full of spiders). So there is a capped drain pipe 3' from the boiler that I can drain into.

FranklinD

On another note, I was pleasantly surprised at how clean the water was. Looked like tap water. After a year in the system, which is all 100 year old cast iron and steel, I expected a bit more rust/scale/discoloration. So that's good.

lchmb

just a thought...was any boiler treatment used? Water tested?

RobG

If you are only doing closed loop hydronic pipes you can use 50/50 solder as well.

FranklinD

No. I did consider it, but after a month of running, I tested the tap water and the boiler water, and they came back almost the same. I did pH, iron, and hardness tests and they were all in the 'optimum' range (tested by a local environmental lab a coworkers dad owns). The only thing that changed was an increase in particulate which I expected.

Our water comes from 1200 feet out into Lake Superior, about 20' off the bottom. It is treated, but barely. We are routinely touted as having the best tap water in the country (top 5 I believe).

Copper pipe installed 60 years ago around here is still in perfect condition internally. I know I am lucky as far as water quality goes. I've read some horror stories here and there, and man, that's nothing I want to deal with.

When they drained the system during the boiler replacement a year ago, that was the first time the system had been open since 1983. They flushed it out as best they could, but not much came out. When I drained it this morning, I drained most of it through a fine mesh. Didn't catch anything of note, though the last gallon out had a small amount of VERY fine particulate.

FranklinD

I looked for 50/50 at the store I was at and could not find it for the life of me. Oh well.

Seemed to have gone okay. Not all the joints are as pretty as I would've liked, but that's the learning process.

Even the heavy ball valve seemed to sweat on relatively easily. So it'll probably all blow apart soon...ha ha. I hope not.

Thanks folks!

Ironman

That looks pretty good to me.

hot_rod

If you want to check the quality of your solder joints, disassemble a couple. It's easy to cap off a joint and make it look good, it's the coating inside that gives the joint integrity.
It should be solid silver around the tube and socket. Any bare copper spots indicate over-heating, dirty or oily spots, or excessive flux, causing bubbles.

Many of the plumbing tests have you solder up joints which they cut in half and pound them apart, that is the best way to check. re-heting and pulling them apart can change the look.

ChrisJ

hot rod said:

If you want to check the quality of your solder joints, disassemble a couple. It's easy to cap off a joint and make it look good, it's the coating inside that gives the joint integrity.
It should be solid silver around the tube and socket. Any bare copper spots indicate over-heating, dirty or oily spots, or excessive flux, causing bubbles.

Many of the plumbing tests have you solder up joints which they cut in half and pound them apart, that is the best way to check. re-heting and pulling them apart can change the look.

I did this with the first few silver solder joints I did. Although, there was no "pounding them apart". I did the best I could to see that filler made it where it needed to though and felt confident in my skill before working on the actual project. Also wanted to see my nitrogen flow was sufficient.

FranklinD

I ended up having one 90 left over after reconfiguring my arrangement...so before I started sweating, I did sweat that to a length of scrap pipe and bang it apart to see what it looked like inside. It wasn't pretty on the outside (went overboard with the solder and it ran down the pipe) but it made it all the way around the joint and all the way to the inside of the 90.

I filled and drained the boiler and near boiler piping twice to make sure I got out any bits and pieces left over. Then I filled the system up as usual but ran the pressure up to 20psi and turned off the feed valve. Just want to make absolutely sure that I'll be "all good" for the winter.

Bob Bona_4

Kind of late but for the last 15 years Silvabrite 100 is the only solder I've used. Flows almost like 50/50. I suffered with a bunch of other 95/5's before that.

ChrisJ

Bob Bona said:

Kind of late but for the last 15 years Silvabrite 100 is the only solder I've used. Flows almost like 50/50. I suffered with a bunch of other 95/5's before that.

Bob, where do you find the SILVABRITE 100? I'd like to try it.


This is what I've been using and while I've only done a few hundred joints I haven't had a failure unless it was my fault (water in pipe).

Lenox WS15086 1lb
http://www.amazon.com/Lenox-WS15086-Wirespool-Sterling-Lead-Free/dp/B0031FAZB0

And this is the flux I use.
1 lb. Climate Smooth Soldering Paste
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Hercules-10621-1-lb-Climate-Smooth-Soldering-Paste


For electronics, I use 63/37 leaded solder with rosin flux, I believe Kester 44, but that's a completely different subject.

Bob Bona_4

I find it at the Win wholesalers or Plimpton. It's pretty common, Google up a source near you? I prefer SOS flux, this combo has served me well. I think I've tried Sterling 95 years ago, found the melting point a little high. It took a few years after the 50/50 ban on potable to find the solder I liked. I just do everything with the Silva, so I'm not searching in the box.

Bob Bona_4

I will save that info on the electronic solder. From time to time I'm fooling with a pc board or something I really should toss out and buy new

ChrisJ

Bob Bona said:

I will save that info on the electronic solder. From time to time I'm fooling with a pc board or something I really should toss out and buy new

The rosin stuff is hard to clean but you usually don't have to, the rosin flux won't harm anything as it's not corrosive. 63/37 has the lowest melting point/

Harvey Ramer

Sterling 95 is a trick on lead free brass.

Today I silver soldered a copper plated stainless txv in an ice machine with no room to work. That is also a trick. Brazing steel to copper is also rather technical as well. After doing that stuff, soldering copper became much easier.

FranklinD

Well, after two days bumped up to 20psi at the boiler and a few runs up to temp, I'm satisfied that all is well. My system normally sits at 12psi cold.

Actually, that's the next addition. Moving the expansion tank (hanging off of the air separator in mid air and a size too small) over to the plywood I mounted on the wall. Which I did a year ago for the installers to mount stuff to. Sigh. I ordered the next size up and will also add an isolation valve just in case. Draining, refilling, and bleeding 110 gallons at -30f can't go fast enough.

Just wanted to thank you all again. While I am far from any kind of pro with this stuff, I love to learn all that I can about it so I can make emergency repairs myself.

Empire_2

50/50 is so 80's......................:-) Get the lead out!...lol I knew you could do it...

Peace Mike T.

Tinman

Heatboy turned me on to Staybrite #8 about 20 years ago and have been using it since. Its pricey but fills "loose" joints better than anything I've ever used. Using decent products and sound methods is almost bulletproof.

JUGHNE

You mentioned draining 110 gallons just to change the exp tank. Don't you have valves in place to isolate the radiation from the boiler piping? If not, this might be the time to add them. I assume your 4" pipes were reduced to maybe 1 1/2" or less and cutting in valves in the copper would let you do any work on all boiler trim and not drain the entire system, not to mention chasing the air out of CI rads.

HEATON

Bridget by Harris" check it out.. been soldering and brazing 4 60 yrs. teach it 2 This is the best!!!!!

FranklinD

JUGHNE-

Right you are. While the installers did reduce the mains and near boiler piping to 1-1/4" copper and install isolation valves at the boiler, they are literally right AT the boiler. For some reason they didn't install a valve at the expansion tank. One of a series of missteps that led to their dismissal.

I will admit, they got me good. The owner that came to quote the job was here for 2 hours, performed a heat loss (though he still wanted to go a size over - talked him out of that), measured radiators to compare to room heat loss, was very friendly and knowledgable, even saw my copy of one of Dan's books and commented that he owned a few himself. I figured I was good to go, finally, after seeing 4 other installers about the job. It wasn't a big job...there was a WM VHE that had been installed in '83. The large mains were already reduced to 1-1/4" steel pipe, the sidewall exhaust and room for the intake were already there, I even gutted a part of the basement to guarantee room for the boiler and a future indirect water heater. I tried to be the model customer, basically.

Then it wasn't the owner that showed up to do the work. As it all happened, I was briefly out of town when the install took place. Well, most of it. And it went downhill from that point forward. I ended up recouping some of the labor, but by that time it was well into the heating season and we had to wait to make any changes. I knew, from the beginning, that I could've done it myself with help from you folks...and I wish I had. Oh well. Live and learn! The experience helped prevent me from getting burned again this summer when we had our roof done (I don't do heights or I likely would've enlisted a few friends and tried my hand at it).

Anywho....yeah. I did get a mount and a new (one size up) expansion tank, mounted it to the wall a few feet away, and sweated a copper line with a ball valve to the tee at the bottom of the air separator (auto feeder/backflow valve is also connected there).