Steam replacment coming up

Dave0176

Prefabbed the header and prethreaded all boiler risers.

SWEI

Nice. That's gonna save a bunch of field time.

Abracadabra

A longer nipple between the last riser connection and the first steam main connection is usually preferred.

Dave0176

Now I can hit the job and attack lol

ChrisJ

I agree with Abracadabra,

When possible, it's best to give the water some time to fall out of the steam.

What size steamer is this going on?


This is WAY off topic, but is that a Federal Pacific service panel in the second picture?

JUGHNE

Looks like a FPE Stab-Loc panel. They had a long list of issues. One was that without the cover on to hold the breakers securely in place the "stabs" would not always make good contact. And then were pro to arcing and overheating/burning the buss bar, which compounded the problem making the connection looser yet. It would be good to have the cover tightly on.

Yes, off topic but consider it to be a "Public Safety Announcement"

RobG

Love the two Bud bottles in the background. Another reason to prefab at home!

ChrisJ

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RobG said:

Love the two Bud bottles in the background. Another reason to prefab at home!

As long as it's nothing for me.

Dave0176

ChrisJ said:

I agree with Abracadabra,

When possible, it's best to give the water some time to fall out of the steam.

What size steamer is this going on?


This is WAY off topic, but is that a Federal Pacific service panel in the second picture?

I always see Jstar run his headers this way so if it works for him.....

I'm renting the property and yes that's an FPE stab lok. I'm getting ready to install a 100 Amp Square D panel that I already have brand new.

Dave0176

ChrisJ said:

I agree with Abracadabra,

When possible, it's best to give the water some time to fall out of the steam.

What size steamer is this going on?


This is WAY off topic, but is that a Federal Pacific service panel in the second picture?

It's going on a Weil McLain PEG35. Yes I know it's overkill but I like using 3" headers.

ChrisJ

Dave0176 said:

ChrisJ said:

I agree with Abracadabra,

When possible, it's best to give the water some time to fall out of the steam.

What size steamer is this going on?


This is WAY off topic, but is that a Federal Pacific service panel in the second picture?

I always see Jstar run his headers this way so if it works for him.....

I'm renting the property and yes that's an FPE stab lok. I'm getting ready to install a 100 Amp Square D panel that I already have brand new.

Absolutely it'll work. It's just not necessarily optimal.
It also depends on the size of the boiler vs size of the risers and header. If the risers and header are barely big enough for the boiler then you're more likely to notice a decrease in efficiency.

ChrisJ

Dave0176 said:

ChrisJ said:

I agree with Abracadabra,

When possible, it's best to give the water some time to fall out of the steam.

What size steamer is this going on?


This is WAY off topic, but is that a Federal Pacific service panel in the second picture?

It's going on a Weil McLain PEG35. Yes I know it's overkill but I like using 3" headers.

That'll work awesome, period.
It's overkill in some people's opinions but it makes your distance moot.

Remember, Gerry Gill did a 4" header on the smallest Burnham IN series, an IN3 I think?

SWEI

That's not a header, it's a steam accumulator.

Dave0176

Got a lot done this past Saturday, unfortunately I had to replace a really good potion of the main, probably 25 ft was piping was literally falling down. Anyway got a few runouts to pipe up run the gas line and well be in business.

I added the second main, the two rear radiators runouts were very long and they were the first off the main, so the condensate had to travel a good 70 feet to get back to the boiler. Plus I added two aditional tees for future rad installs in his mud room and 1st fl bathroom.

Dave0176

Also I'm being rescued on this job as my regular helper could not make it, so my father and my 19 yo brother are helping out on the install.

Fred

Nice, Nice, Nice!

Hap_Hazzard

That looks a lot like my header (except I put more distance between the boiler and system risers, as Abracadabra suggests), especially in the way one of the swing arms comes across diagonally.

I used to think that the guys that added an extra joint to keep everything at right angles were just wasting pipe and elbows, but when I put mine together I noticed that the diagonal swing arm didn't swing too well after I hooked up the equalizer. The geometry just doesn't allow it. I actually had to shimmy the boiler around on the slab to get everything connected.

I hope you don't have as hard a time as I did, but if you do, I hope the homeowner isn't home, because you're going to feel like using some real colorful language.

Dave0176

Hap_Hazzard said:

That looks a lot like my header (except I put more distance between the boiler and system risers, as Abracadabra suggests), especially in the way one of the swing arms comes across diagonally.

I used to think that the guys that added an extra joint to keep everything at right angles were just wasting pipe and elbows, but when I put mine together I noticed that the diagonal swing arm didn't swing too well after I hooked up the equalizer. The geometry just doesn't allow it. I actually had to shimmy the boiler around on the slab to get everything connected.

I hope you don't have as hard a time as I did, but if you do, I hope the homeowner isn't home, because you're going to feel like using some real colorful language.

I tryed to use an extra elbow but no matter how tight you make everything even using close nipples it wont fit up to the risers. I did one time but I had a hellve a time getting it to line up with the risers and felt it wasnt worth the time fiddling with it. The larger 4 section boiler is easier to do with the extra elbow.

I just measure up the center distance between the two risers, (this one happens to be 10") then I pick the right size nipple to keep the header straight. Everytime it just drops right on the risers.

EzzyT

Nice neat and clean work. Is there reason why you went with gate valves verses ball valves?

ChrisJ

EzzyT said:

Nice neat and clean work. Is there reason why you went with gate valves verses ball valves?

Because gate valves make you feel like you're doing something super important as you spin them 10,000 times to close it. Like, closing a seriously high pressure valve or something.

Ok, honestly I'm not sure about the OP but I went with gate valves because some guys swear by them for this application. They're rarely used and when they are they're fully closed. I also think a decent 2" gate valve is noticeably cheaper than a ball valve but I'm not sure.

Hap_Hazzard

I used ball valves on mine.

ChrisJ

@Hap_Hazzard that header's on the small side, no?

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

@Hap_Hazzard that header's on the small side, no?

Not for the risers.
Two 2" risers @ 3.355 in² = 6.71 in².
3" header = 7.393 in².

The IOM, by the way, requires only one 2" riser.

ChrisJ

Oh, for some reason it looked like a 2" header.

Hap_Hazzard

@ChrisJ maybe it's those humongous ball valves. ;-)

makinsteam

Hap_Hazzard said:

I hope you don't have as hard a time as I did, but if you do, I hope the homeowner isn't home, because you're going to feel like using some real colorful language.

The homeowner has been micromanaging and watching every minute of the install. lol.

It was pretty funny to randomly see my basement on the forum after lurking for a year or so, but I'm glad to have a contractor that takes as much pride in his work as Dave and seeks input and advice.

Hap_Hazzard

He not only seeks but gives back as well. He is a valued and respected member of this community. Congratulations on your upgrade. The work looks great.

makinsteam

Yeah, I've got nothing but praise thus far.
I attached a "before" image. Ancient oil fired peerless. Double the correct size, copper single pipe header. Basically similar to the vertical header in the infamous WM retweet. The steam was soaking wet and we were freezing, and of course we burned obscene amounts of oil. A couple of contractors that visited us for estimates wanted to size the replacement by the label. Thanks to reading Dan's books, I sent them on their way.

Our original piping also had a lot of severe issues, such as no swing joints, the tees for the risers were not at 45 degrees, and the main took a very silly and very long path. We had one radiator that breathed like a life support machine due to condensate draining issues. Dave took the time to split the system and run a new main to one side of the house, shortening the original one significantly.

I can't wait to fire it up!

makinsteam

Finally, Dave was the only one who knew how to set the system up for a high pressure blow down. And hook a 2 stage gas valve up to a vaporstat.
I feel like a steam locomotive engineer standing next to this thing.

ChrisJ

Awesome job Dave.

Fred

Beautiful!

nicholas bonham-carter

Now for the pipe insulation, and venting trials with your good low pressure gauge, (0-3 psi), and you are all set!! Good job on this. The system will have silent, even, comfortable heat!--NBC

makinsteam

Yup. I already have a low pressure gauge
(thanks to this site) and splurged on 2" pipe insulation, which I know is overkill.

Dave0176

EzzyT said:

Nice neat and clean work. Is there reason why you went with gate valves verses ball valves?

Nothing really, just the gate valves look cool, plus they harken back to the old days.

Dave0176

I'll add a few more pics of the install.

makinsteam

Dave and I got the system fired up last night. The rads all filled with no pressure whatsoever registering on the 3 psi gauge. We initially had the vaporstat driving the 2 stage gas valve set to kick in at 10 oz, but we just never reached it. We eventually set it to kick in to the lower stage at 4oz (which unscientifically seemed about right). On low fire, the system just hovered right at the 4oz mark silent as could be.

We decided we had built a 1 pipe vapor system and the name Chris J might have come up over a celebratory beer while watching the low pressure gauge. Now we're thinking of swapping the 3psi gauge for a 1.

ChrisJ

makinsteam said:

Dave and I got the system fired up last night. The rads all filled with no pressure whatsoever registering on the 3 psi gauge. We initially had the vaporstat driving the 2 stage gas valve set to kick in at 10 oz, but we just never reached it. We eventually set it to kick in to the lower stage at 4oz (which unscientifically seemed about right). On low fire, the system just hovered right at the 4oz mark silent as could be.

We decided we had built a 1 pipe vapor system and the name Chris J might have come up over a celebratory beer while watching the low pressure gauge. Now we're thinking of swapping the 3psi gauge for a 1.

4 oz a bit high, I have mine set to shut down for 5 minutes if it hits 2.3 oz.

Curious, how does the boiler's output on low fire compare to the connected radiation?

makinsteam

Chris,

Yeah, I might be able to crank it down a bit more. That's why we're thinking of putting the 1 psi gauge on. The rads were full for quite awhile before we even started registering on the 3 psi gauge. It was a boiler test on a 65 degree day, so I won't really know what the system is made of until we get some real conditions. I do suspect we will be able to get away with a high pressure limit well under 1 psi. I'm going to replace the pressuretrol with another vaporstat and set burner cutout at .5 psi for starters, but it wouldn't surprise me if it gradually gets set lower and lower based on what I saw yesterday and we may eventually end up as low as you. We'll see...

Right now, we have an EG-35 hooked up to 220sf EDR. I have some unheated areas we want to run the steam to, which is why we went a tad big. We'll probably be right at or exceeding WM's quoted sf of steam for that unit once we're done with everything. Since we ran some of the mains for these future heated areas already, we probably have more mains than would be usual for that amount of radiation (220sf).

Based on clocking the meter, on low fire, EG-35 was burning around 57K btuh (before combustion analysis and any tweaking of the gas valve), and at 220sf EDR of radiation, I come up with a load of 52,800 btuh. This was also with a lot of mains insulation still off, so I'm sure the load was actually a bit higher.

makinsteam

We're actually already questioning the pickup factor and are already discussing downsizing the EG-35 to an EG-30. We'll add the extra rads and give it some coldweather time first, but anecdotally, your experience with disregarding the pickup factor seems to apply here also.

Dave in QCA

A great install. Pipe insulation will improve the operation and you may see the pressure rise just a tiny bit higher because the piping won't be doing so much condensing of the steam.

I'm curious as to why you are thinking about downsizing the boiler from a 35 to a 30. Since you already have a means to reduce the firing rate with your 2 stage valve, wouldn't this just be another way of doing what you can already do?

ChrisJ

Dave in QCA said:

A great install. Pipe insulation will improve the operation and you may see the pressure rise just a tiny bit higher because the piping won't be doing so much condensing of the steam.

I'm curious as to why you are thinking about downsizing the boiler from a 35 to a 30. Since you already have a means to reduce the firing rate with your 2 stage valve, wouldn't this just be another way of doing what you can already do?

Wouldn't the boiler operate more efficiently at the correct manifold pressure but with 1 less burner and proper drafthood than reducing the pressure with more burners?