Is a high efficiency boiler worth it?

Rich_49

Hot Rod ,

If we allowed 5-6 people to determine whom is being rude Hatterasguy and myself should just leave now ? That's kinda like 4 foxes being able to vote on whether the guard dog at the hen house is really wanted . Bad idea , however if that is on the table I'll leave .
Hell , you and I have bickered extensively , but at the end of the day I think we're both grown up enough to know it was from a good place . Neither of us ever (at least I ) entertained having the other barred or cried to the moderator , we know he is watching and will do what he'll do when he determines the neccesity. Maybe that's just because we have identified that nothing gets accomplished without heated debate . Welcome to the Man Club .

hot_rod

I don't recall naming anyone, why would you put yourself on a list??

When heating help started many years ago the intent was to let anything fly, no censorship, rules, or suggestions. It was fun for a short time and things started to get out of control.

Our hosts has pulled discussions before, it's their call really, wouldn't you agree?

Dan chose to put just a few basic rules, more about good manners. I hope that is all it takes.

Many other lists have gone far beyond "suggesting' good behavior and have lost some of their posters and "feel" of the site.

JStar

Best generation in the world...that voted for Reagan twice. Give me a break.

Personally, I like the discussions. Nobody should be comfortable in their own opinions. However, it can be handled with respect and civility. The best part about this site is the people - let's not scare them away.

Back to the original topic, I'll ask my customers for their fuel bills and post them. In my own house, I saved 28% the first year by adding an Outdoor Reset to my CI boiler. I could only go down to 140-150F as well.

ChrisJ

hot rod said:

I don't recall naming anyone, why would you put yourself on a list??

When heating help started many years ago the intent was to let anything fly, no censorship, rules, or suggestions. It was fun for a short time and things started to get out of control.

Our hosts has pulled discussions before, it's their call really, wouldn't you agree?

Dan chose to put just a few basic rules, more about good manners. I hope that is all it takes.

Many other lists have gone far beyond "suggesting' good behavior and have lost some of their posters and "feel" of the site.

I certainly didn't name anyone.

Rich_49

I put myself on the list because I don't believe anyone is above the other . I don't believe anyone should begin to believe they are special or preferred .

Hot Rod asked " Our hosts has pulled discussions before, it's their call really, wouldn't you agree? "
I previously stated
," we know he is watching and will do what he'll do when he determines the neccessity " In short , yes I would agree .

Now , what if I were to say your asking that question was rude or ill mannered even though it is not or that was not your intent . If 5 people agreed with me because of similar beliefs should you be tossed ? There is no room for perception of manners . Let's face it , there are no threats being thrown around and what some perceive as poor behavior may not be so .
I think people posting a comment during a discussion having only to do with provocation and stating that they think a poster whom is involved from the beginning of it has some communication flaw is far more offensive than heated debate on the Ops question . Do you think it is possible for that to be the reason the OP leaves ? Unless you have something constructive to add that deals with the issue being discussed you should probably remain silent . Do you agree ?

Rich_49

Joe ,

Reagan wasn't so bad . Think about this , someone actually discharged a firearm in an attempt to kill him . This is a sign of a good president . That club is very small .
Anyway , I was speaking about the generation that is almost no longer among the living . Oh yeah , I voted for Reagan on his second run . The alternatives were terrible though .

JStar

Illegally supplying firearms to Iran, twice. Installing puppet-dictators in South and Central America in order to justify the killing of thousands. The war on drugs poor people. Tax breaks for the super-wealthy. Trickle-down economics. No thanks!

hot_rod

Rich said:

I put myself on the list because I don't believe anyone is above the other . I don't believe anyone should begin to believe they are special or preferred .

Hot Rod asked " Our hosts has pulled discussions before, it's their call really, wouldn't you agree? "
I previously stated
," we know he is watching and will do what he'll do when he determines the neccessity " In short , yes I would agree .

Now , what if I were to say your asking that question was rude or ill mannered even though it is not or that was not your intent . If 5 people agreed with me because of similar beliefs should you be tossed ? There is no room for perception of manners . Let's face it , there are no threats being thrown around and what some perceive as poor behavior may not be so .
I think people posting a comment during a discussion having only to do with provocation and stating that they think a poster whom is involved from the beginning of it has some communication flaw is far more offensive than heated debate on the Ops question . Do you think it is possible for that to be the reason the OP leaves ? Unless you have something constructive to add that deals with the issue being discussed you should probably remain silent . Do you agree ?

Unless you have something constructive to add that deals with the issue being discussed you should probably remain silent . Do you agree ?

I think MOST responders believe they have something constructive to add. How does one know when to remain quiet, or when their post adds to the discussion. Do you decide that?

For that matter why should one remain quiet on a public forum?

Rich_49

Rod I simply meant nobody should add a post that does not deal with the discussion at hand . In other words unless it deals with the topic don't do it .
You and this line of discussion is a perfect example . I have already stated that nobody should decide that , I don't understand your thought . Nobody should remain silent in a public forum . Neither should a small group of people silence anyone . Please stop in what I view is an attempt to bait me . Aint never gonna work . But thanks for the example of what not to do .

Paul48

To the OP.........As you can see....These guys are completely lacking in the opinion department.

JStar

We're passionate, not angry!

hot_rod

Rich said:

Rod I simply meant nobody should add a post that does not deal with the discussion at hand . In other words unless it deals with the topic don't do it .
You and this line of discussion is a perfect example . I have already stated that nobody should decide that , I don't understand your thought . Nobody should remain silent in a public forum . Neither should a small group of people silence anyone . Please stop in what I view is an attempt to bait me . Aint never gonna work . But thanks for the example of what not to do .

I don't see a small or large group here trying to silence anyone? Where does that come from? As far a I know our host is the only one with the finger on the censor button.

And if I or Hatt ask you to clarify a post, provide data, or if Joe or Robert asked to be treated politely do you consider that baiting!

Paul48

Unless you are going to meet, pace off ten paces in each direction, turn and shoot............This is DONE.........STUPID.........FUTILE, and has been for many posts. Let it go!

Jean-David Beyer

My mod-con with outdoor reset is just about ideal for my downstairs heating zone (radiant slab at grade) but far from ideal upstairs (baseboard). I increased the efficiency of the upstairs zone when I got a new boiler by replacing the 3-foot section of baseboard in each of the two upstairs rooms by a 14-foot section in each of the two rooms. That way, I could run much lower water temperatures in the baseboard zone than I would otherwise have needed. The cost of the new baseboard was small compared with the cost of the entire system.

I did have the luxury that there was room for the extra baseboard and nothing interfering with it, such as furniture, drapes, etc.

Gordy

I think debating has its moments.......in the end it depends on who posts the initial question. A non professional looking for advice can walk away more confused than before they set foot here. with the way some of the debates go, and then drift off the initial topic.

I think intense debate among proffesionals is healthy, but we really need to be considerate of non pros looking for what would seem simple yes, or no answers. As,well known mostly that is not an answer option. It helps to be to the point when possible.

Bob Bona_4

I'm very squeamish about committing to a fuel savings number, on anything- From ODR to equipment. Too much a moving target. I'm good with knowing what stone age vs modulating can do, with modulating being an upgrade. The folks can make the choice.

Gordy

I think most savings come from proper sizing. Then comes savings in over radiation with reduced water temps to over sized emitters. Next is modulation.

With out the ability to modulate, do ODR, and refine the total system results can be meager.

Percentages can play games, and be manipulated to tell good, and bad results

j a_2

Heat loss is of the most important... Seriouy, if a true heating guy can't tell when he pulls up to a home if its a 3 4 5 or 6 section boiler, Or a comparable mod con, he has issues,.

j a_2

Scenero, its January 5th. Saturday morning temps hovering around 5 degrees...Supply house closes at noon.So you tell you customr, gee I have to go to my office and run a spread sheet on a heat loss, may not be done by noon, so can't get boiler till Monday, I think not...

njtommy

40% would be awesome and I'm sure some people see those numbers. I think everyone's walked in to a job with a boiler double size it should be and zones not configured currently. Along with everyone's hands in the pot.

But I think most people would see around 15%. Just too many variables.

Paul48

Everyone has a different idea of value. Many homeowners would not see the value, going from gas/CI to a mod/con in a 1970's sized home(1500 sq/ft ranch). The annual savings may not pay for the difference in up-front cost, over the life of the boiler. Although we should all do our part for the enviroment, those that punch a clock every day have been going backwards for the last 30 years. So it becomes a matter of saving the enviroment or making a tuition payment for your kid.

Rich_49

Ja . 2 houses side by side . One had a deep energy retrofit . Load of the untouched 2,400 sq ft home is 36,000 BTUh @ 15 BTU sq ft . . The other however is 19,200 BTUh @ 8 BTU sq ft .
Sorry , not a true heating guy on the planet that can tell you what size boiler you need from the curb .
Once heard a rule of thumb from Mass , south of the pike the requirement is 20 BTU sq ft , North is 30 BTU sq ft . Sounds pretty dumb right ?
Just sayin , that type of thinking is what landed us in the hole we are in now . At some point we gotta start pullin dirt in just to reach up and get out .

j a_2

@Rich, Knowing the area you work is is very important, I was lucky enough to have more than enough work in my area, that helped me emincely, I pretty much new what builder and what era the home was built..Of course I do a whole house heat loss...I_B_R...There procedure is unbiased, unlike salesmes procedures...

ChrisJ

I fought with my dad when he was building his house to get him to do radiant, but he insisted on forced hot air because it's in his words "simple, cheap and reliable". We still argue about it 8 years later.

I guess he didn't do too bad because every time we've checked it his house has come in at 4 btu per sqft in NE PA.

j a_2

House in Milton mass Plus 9 degree day. Colonial style home minimal insulation 1800 sq. Ft. One zone black iron monoflow..22 standard windows attic no insulation...customer adement about no mod/con. Lived in house 70 years ..wants 50 gallon indirect...old oil.beast coming out gas going in planning on Peerless DE series...chimney unusable

j a_2

Old house old book

j a_2

Here

Rich_49

Quit standing on your head . Does not much matter what book or house you're in . Heat has traveled and acted the same way for Eons . The best we can ever do is try to direct it where its needed most and harvest the most of it that we can .

j a_2

Rich,Rich, I will do my best to not stand on my head...I might suggest you be more professional in your postings.. Your getting off base...this is my last post on this thread. You may want to consider it as well...Repeat repeat repeat. It's over

4Johnpipe

I think he meant the picture is upside down...

ChrisJ

Jeez.

Rich_49

The picture is exactly what I was referring to . J A Phinney , what is wrong with you ? If by unprofessional you mean my speaking out against bad ideas , wrong thinking , and poor decision making in design then I guess I am .
What I might be off base about is a mystery . Maybe you could enlighten me in a pm so as not to get off track .
You fellows whom are so ready to call someone unprofessional or rude should really get some social skills and stop pointing fingers at others . Especially when there are no grounds .

CEP

Ok, you all have been very helpful and I now believe that the guys who came to provide an estimate did not approach this correctly. If any of you are in the Boston area and would be interested in this job, I would appreciate it if you could post your contact info. I really appreciate all of your insights.

Rich_49

I beleive JA Phinney is in that area . You should contact him . There may be others also . See the find a contractor feature here on the site .

Guess we didn't lose you after all . Good for you .

Charlie from wmass

Old house new app properly applied. I go every where in MA.

Charlie from wmass

I did not do. The manifolds those ugly things were from the original system. 86% efficiency. Lifetime warranty.

SWEI

j a said:

Scenero, its January 5th. Saturday morning temps hovering around 5 degrees...Supply house closes at noon.So you tell you customr, gee I have to go to my office and run a spread sheet on a heat loss, may not be done by noon, so can't get boiler till Monday, I think not...

After dozens of heat loss calcs on buildings in your local area, you do get a feel for things -- at least with familiar types of construction. In the situation you describe, I would do a sanity check on the BTU/ft², almost certainly observe that the old boiler was providing over 40 BTU/ft², and then (most of the time) buy the smallest boiler model made, since even that will be too big for most houses in these parts.

hot_rod

And always remember with boiler retro fits, it's the distribution that dictates the operating condition of the boiler. The system will seek, and find thermal equilibrium.

So you need to consider the radiation in the building as well as the load numbers. Especially true with non- con equipment.

j a_2

j a said:

I totally agree..that its not a good fit, but that is just my opinion based on the information you provided. Remember your looking for comfort,. If you choose to chase rebates it may dicate your decision Think with your head not your wallet

jstar, wondering why you not like my posting...see above....it's fine you don't like it but you did not explain why