Is a high efficiency boiler worth it?

Tinman

The vent damper was discarded as an efficiency "trick" a long time ago on furnaces yet still remain on boilers. That chunk of cast iron retains a lot heat but the dampers sure are unreliable.

ChrisJ

Stephen Minnich said:

The vent damper was discarded as an efficiency "trick" a long time ago on furnaces yet still remain on boilers. That chunk of cast iron retains a lot heat but the dampers sure are unreliable.

It's not just the block though, that damper also stops the flu from sucking warm air out of the space around the boiler, often a basement.

Of course, with direct vent that's also a non-issue.

SWEI

Bob Bona said:

There's other venting material options for the anti pvc crowds.

Some of which can be safely and securely installed in an existing chimney by two people in about an hour.

j a_2

What type material do you prefer to use going up an existing chimney...For high efficiently?

Aaron_in_Maine

j a said:

What type material do you prefer to use going up an existing chimney...For high efficiently?

I use centrotherm polypropylene chimney liners. Then go in fairly easily less then an hour in most cases. The kit makes the chimney a air intake as well.

j a_2

Rich help unconfuse me about your post..Maybe I did not see the humor you expected me to see...I hope that's the case.I am calm and will handle that on my own without your guidence thank u

jonny88

Aaron_in_Maine that is the exact same brand that I use for all my boilers.I will always try and avoid side wall venting and us e that product instead.This week I am putting two mod/cons in as a replacement for a oil fired boiler and water heater.Centrotherm is making a termination cap for both exhausts as we are using chimney for venting and chimney top is large.Their price is very reasonable.@j a try the product it is great.Just make sure to use fitting provided at base of chimney and come through breach of chimney in PP.

jonny88

@hot rod why is it in your opinion that sales vary from west to east.I know living on Long Island that a Mod/Con sale is a challenge unless you are using Navien.Have you a similar graph for Caleffi sales.I find a lot of supply houses dont want to hold onto to much inventory.Magnetic DirtMag for example was a challenge for my supply house to get.When we convinced them to try,they started stocking them and now most guys are using it.Hoping the same will go for the Sep4.

Rich_49

j a said:

Rich help unconfuse me about your post..Maybe I did not see the humor you expected me to see...I hope that's the case.I am calm and will handle that on my own without your guidence thank u

This is exactly what I am talking about . Why even bother responding after I explained there was no negative intent in my comment ?

Leave it alone , this is a help site for professionals who want the opinion of their peers and homeowners who are trying to avoid a nightmare or are experiencing one . If something is said by anyone here whom I or others disagree with it is open for discussion , that's how things get accomplished and addressed .

You all want some kind of Utopia where everyone agrees all the time and is like a mutual admiration society . I've got news for you , that has been the case for too long . The exact reason why there is so many garbage products and practices in use . Disagree ? Why does this site exist then with the number of discussions and the popularity associated with it .
Maybe i do ruffle feathers , Oh well . I am actually trying to do good for the consumer , industry , and environment
, built and natural .

I have no desire to council anyone on anything other than heating / cooling or environmental quality issues . If you do not like how I go about it , Too bad !

Now , can we get back to the business of Heating Help as opposed to social work . Sorry if I offended your sense of order or view of how the world should be .

hot_rod

jonny88 said:

@hot rod why is it in your opinion that sales vary from west to east.I know living on Long Island that a Mod/Con sale is a challenge unless you are using Navien.Have you a similar graph for Caleffi sales.I find a lot of supply houses dont want to hold onto to much inventory.Magnetic DirtMag for example was a challenge for my supply house to get.When we convinced them to try,they started stocking them and now most guys are using it.Hoping the same will go for the Sep4.

I think it has to do with the replacement market as far as non-con sales in the east and midwest. And a huge population base up and down the northeast. It wasn't all that long ago that the population of Montana reached 1 million. Many cities and towns back east have over a million. And Montana is 400 miles across!

Of course if you threw oil fired in their numbers the non con market would be larger too.

Yes our fearless leader, Mark in Milwaukee is a number crunching machine. He can make an Excel sheet sing. He has all sorts of data, projections, forecasts, historys trends etc.

We try everything we can think of to get and keep product on the shelves in as many places as possible. The larger chains have, and continue to build central-distro centers in large population vicinities. That helps them move product overnight on their own trucks.

We process orders the same day if we receive them by noon in the high 90% range. Another static we watch closely. Sometimes PO get stuck at suppliers until the order is large enough to qualify for shipping discounts. They might add a fee to order and ship a single non-stock item, be sure to ask. We can and do expedite.

The wholesale supply business is very competitive also, so they are always looking for way to stay profitable, I hope lean, or no inventory isn't a trend. I have been to some cities where there are three competing suppliers in the same strip mall or within sight of one another.

Look for the suppliers that have made hydronics one of their niches, they tend to adopt and stock the latest and greatest. There are suppliers across the US and Canada that have very knowledgable hydronics people, just getting tougher to find, as old timers retire.

j a_2

Well there Rich I guess we just have a different approach...So be it...End of subject.....A bit of fall in the air up here, oh boy here comes the fun...

RobG

Hatterasguy said:

RobG said:

Hat, is there anything that you will not argue about? If we all just bow down to you and admit that you are all knowing would it satisfy you? I used to think Icesailor was difficult, you take the cake!

Nope, I'll argue about anything.

No need to bow down and agree with me. Just stand up with some backbone and come right back at me with some data to support your position.

Nothing like a good argument. Believe it or not, we all don't need to sit together singing Kumbaya.

But, posting a "disagree" and running away from the argument is simply detestable. You don't know anybody who would do that..........do you?

In this specific case, several of you have failed to read the OP's post and want to argue about the savings that a mod-con will generate as compared to a 40 year old and tired CI boiler. That was NOT his question.

Take a cue from Rich. We argue all the time and frequently come to common ground. It's invigorating. He's got a pair...........so do I.

As usual Hat, you're right and I and everyone else who has an opinion that differs from yours is wrong. I do love the way that you compliment those who agree with you though. Very magnanimous!

JStar

Rule #1.

Tinman

I can't keep my mouth shut anymore.

The name of this website is heatinghelp.com.; not inflatedegos.com or haughtybeliefs.com or knowitall.com or fauxtoughguy.com. There's nothing helpful about insulting others to make yourself feel better about yourself.

This place is a bunch of people who swing pipe wrenches and fire up torches and come home blackened at the end of the day and many of us have been doing just that for decades and we're going to call into question someone's toughness??? Grow up! It's embarrassing.

We're suppose to be professionals, right?

RobG

I could ague with you about modulation and matching the load and reducing carbon footprints and by the time you add a buffer tank and an I-Valve you have spent as much as a mod-con would cost, but I am done with you. Once again you're smart and I'm not. (borrowed from Icesailor)

ChrisJ

The objective is to help people and share information.

RobG

Enough pettiness! Everyone is going to have their own opinions. Just please do not state them like they are the only opinion that matters. That is not what this site is intended for. Please do not be rude and condescending. Keep the ugliness off the site!

Gordy

where your money savings wil come from in the HE is operating costs due to the fact that your old boiler is probably oversized, your old boiler can not modulate to the ever changing loads through out the heating season. The on board electronics allow the installer to make the total system more efficient with one package.

A properly sized conventional will also save money, but most of the controls to make a system more efficient will be third party. This adds to the over all install costs.

You can buy an efficient car and just drive it, or buy a less efficient car install add on third party controls to make it just as efficient.

RobG

What a shame, I think amidst all the turmoil we lost the OP. My apologies CEP, this normally doesn't happen.

JStar

Hatterasguy said:

Stephen Minnich said:

This place is a bunch of people who swing pipe wrenches and fire up torches and come home blackened at the end of the day and many of us have been doing just that for decades and we're going to call into question someone's toughness??? Grow up! It's embarrassing.

We're suppose to be professionals, right?

Professionals disagree at times. Nobody has all the answers.

What professionals do not do is to demean the opinion of other professionals.

It's perfectly acceptable to put up some information or data to refute an opinion. That's how we all advance the craft. And, when that occurs, the professionals will discuss it at length and attempt to cover all variables. Note that @Rich pointed out that an 85% CI boiler won't ever make 85% for system efficiency. I agreed with him and revised my estimate to an 80% figure for the system efficiency for the CI boiler. I then compared that to the 91% system efficiency for a mod-con on baseboard. This resulted in a fuel savings of about $100/year based upon the current fuel consumption of the OP.

NOBODY came up with any data to refute or discuss these two figures. The only thing received was a bunch of "disagrees" by people who believe they are looking at the difference between the current 30 year old boiler and the new mod-con. They basically ignored the OP's question. One actually cited a 30% fuel savings between the two systems. Does anybody really believe the new CI boiler, properly matched to the heatloss and properly installed, would have a system efficiency of 64%?

Then we have petulant people who want to demean others because they cannot make any arguments.

Amazing.

If you're here to get Likes and worry about that Disagree option, then this isn't the place for you. The only motive here is to help people. Name calling and petty insults do not help people. If you want to hash it out with someone, use the Private Message feature.

j a_2

Jstar that's good advise. See sometimes at 63 I do listen. You are in the business and you do know there are not to many if any blanket statements that can possibly cover it all, regarding boiler selection.. Heat loss and that crap are on the other had standard

Rich_49

For everyones eyes .

to all that said "go ahead use a cast iron boiler ". Please refer to page 38 of the linked manual . I chose this manual because this unit is often referred to in our discussions .

https://file.ac/tL9Ii3J_mXs/ES2 I&O.pdf

We have no referred to the Op's post and question and have argued that a NEW cast iron boiler is better than the existing 30 year old cast iron boiler . We then evolved (LMAO) the AFUE difference between a new cast iron and a new mod con . I have spoken about systems and others have agreed . Now let's discuss the whole house as a system because some still do not understand the concept of how a mod con is FAR SUPERIOR . Let's see what happens .
The 30 year old boiler is quite probably in a 30 year old house . This 30 year old house is probably quite leaky , even if it has been updated with insulation and windows (ours is not the only industry that sucks ). The boiler room is almost certainly more connected to the living space than the outdoors . If it is more connected to the outdoor space , good enough for this discussion .
If the boiler location is more connected to the home the combustion air required has to come from somewhere . That somewhere would be whatever cracks , holes , openings are available to draw outdoor air through . This increases the heat loss of the home gentlemen . Not so with a mod con . This is also why it is such a piss poor practice to use fuel usage as a factor to size equipment or do a heat loss .
If the house has been tightened up without (sometimes with) the assistance of a qualified home performance professional and the cast iron boiler is replaced , will we know before or after the occupants are dead that this was a bad idea . hopefully the inspector will catch it , if there was a permit .
If the house has been tightened up and the home performance professional that may or may not have been there assisting did his job there will be openings to the outdoors . Greater Delta T between the room and DHW tank , greater heat loss from the tank and a colder boiler requiring even more BTUh to satisfy the load of the home . Did I mention the real possibility of the pipes freezing in a climate zone 6 or 7 location , even 5 and 4 . But we can add Glycol right ? Yeah and we can use different circs with a worse wire to water efficiency and deliver less heat since the heat transfer properties of such fluids suck . Don't forget all the money we spent to make that boiler room more connected to the outdoors WRT indoors . No easy feat .
Now let's look at the requirement to use ODR or a thermal purge on the cast iron monster and don't forget the indirect . That boiler with Glycol will have a hell of a time making the hot water that one with 100% water would . By the time we add all these things up did the cast iron boiler really cost less .
There is your argument about why the new cast iron is far less efficient than you think and why the Mod con will soon rule the market . I've been telling you the house is a system
Don't forget guys , all new housing and =>50% renovations will need to meet the 2012 -2015 IECC which requires <7 ACH50 (2012) and <3ACH50 (2015) . When this happens ( Oct in NJ , 2015 version) it will cost you tons to use the cast iron .
Don't ever forget to pay attention to what the rest of the world is doing . our survival depends on it .

cast iron boilers actually increase the load of any house they are in unless they are more connected to outdoors and then they WILL use more gas .

Bob Bona_4

I love how I can create more room in the folks basement with a wall hung, and they love it even more. When they learn that combustion air is direct fed, and not coming in from fenestrations that in turn increases thier fuel bills...

Rebates...

IMO, mod con's shine in so many ways.

JStar

And we barely talk about the difference in environmental impact.

j a_2

Honestly, I leave the environment stuff to the environment people..I am a heating guy...Not that I don't care, but not my thing...safety and comfort are my thing...The do gooders got that covered, at least that's what they say..

ChrisJ

ChrisJ said:

The objective is to help people and share information.

I guess I should've finished this.

The objective is to help people and share information. Not to always be right. This doesn't mean share wrong information, it means you don't have to always prove you're right and other's opinions are wrong.

I may be guilty of this, I don't know but I try not to be.

j a_2

That's all well and sounds good..And I have no reason to.not believe you, so I do...believe you...But there are very few for profit business that there first concern is not the bottom line.
We chose,like it or not a very personal business, I was lucky enough to have awesome customers. Some better than others...The small local.mom and pop shop owners know of what I speak...When a local utility guy goes to dinner the people across from him have not a clue that's the guy that never showed up at there home,on time,or ever...and he could care less as he stuffs his face with there monies...We the small personall guy CARE...

Gordy

Environmental impact should be a concern for everyone consumers, and installers. One boiler at a time, one car at a time etc. We as an American society are gluttons in so many ways with all our resources compared to other geographical areas of the world.

Rich_49

Everyone , please remember that we are all professionals and all have similar ideas . Some of us speak our opinions with great conviction as we should when we believe in what we are saying . We have all learned one thing or another from the others on this site . Along the way we have helped many folks whom were about to or already made poor decisions based on bad information from the unknowing . How we get there needs to be a process that is what it is . The baiting and nonsense commenting about the others knowledge is all part of the game . I see several folks lately offering nothing except insults and combative behavior at certain individuals . Those individuals are here to help everyone whether they be homeowner or peer member . Conviction in ones statements and sarcasm are all traits some people possess and shame on you for pointing it out or being offended .
Different folks communicate in different ways , none of us should get offended or cry to the others about it .

I have butted heads with many here but at the end of the day we are for the most part a team . A Team that works and anyone whom tries to effect that mechanism should stop and think for a minute if they think they are a greater or better part of the team .

The worst thing that could happen here is folks commenting on others behavior just because their opinions vary . Comment on the topics being discussed and leave the personal attacks off the forum . As someone else suggested , use the PM feature . this is not to say that differing opinions based on the subject of the discussion should not be openly discussed within the thread .

Like S Minnich said, it is beginning to grate on many's nerves . Just like in life , there are many things you may disagree with but openly stating them may not always be acceptable . I speak my mind and listen to everyone's opinions and would never attack them personally , as others seem not to have a problem doing . These types of exchanges are contained right here in this discussion .

if DC took a look at what we do here this whole country would be better off . Speak your mind , fly your confederate flag , shoot off at the mouth constructively , just don't assault anyone on theri beliefs, demeanor and the way they put that forth .

Paul48

How many contractors, spend the extra money to drive nothing but enviromentally friendly vehicles? How many "walk the walk"? That's not directed at anyone in particular. For most consumers, it's an economic issue too.

Gordy

Paul the walk needs to be enforced shame on our government. The way I see it the worlds natural resources are for all. Just because it so happens to be under our soil, or who Evers does not mean it should be abused.

I can own a Tahoe, and not drive it much, or own a Prius, and drive the **** out of it. Owning a Tahoe does not make one a gluten. It's how it's used. With human comfort most people have a tolerable range no matter who they are in comfort. So why not be comfortable, and save money, and natural resources.

ROI is always part of choices we make.

I rather enjoy the debates. I think it teaches much more to the crowd when tastefully done. Being insightful should be the goal.

Paul48

When you're not drivin' the Tahoe, what are ya drivin'? Mama's Escalade? lol

ChrisJ

I drive a Chevy Sonic 1.4 turbo with 6 speed manual and my wife drives a Chevy Cruze 1.4 turbo with 6 speed manual.

We're an automatic free family.
We're also a gas hog free family.

Rich_49

One person in that room needed to tell the others in an eloquent fashion why their ideas suck . Unfortunately as we witness everywhere throughout everyday life this is getting much more difficult to do for fear someone may well up with tears and cry to someone who can silence the guy with actual vision .
Such is how schools and society operate . Those who speak the loudest and may be the thinkers and exercise their voice are placed in special classes so as not to influence the SHEEP wandering through the halls . Those sheep are the chosen useful idiots that will receive an industry or private education to further the perpetuation of nonsense and to defend Caitlyn , the government , private industry and the like .
The problem is when we grow up we still cling to that same , you are a trouble maker attitude and take offense to anything that is said that goes against what we learned in the institute of lower education as it has become .
Very Un American . I fear the last generation was truly the greatest as we have forgotten how to communicate or ostrasize those who are not afraid to .
Yes , the lighting in that room is quite dim .

ChrisJ

Rich said:

One person in that room needed to tell the others in an eloquent fashion why their ideas suck . Unfortunately as we witness everywhere throughout everyday life this is getting much more difficult to do for fear someone may well up with tears and cry to someone who can silence the guy with actual vision .
Such is how schools and society operate . Those who speak the loudest and may be the thinkers and exercise their voice are placed in special classes so as not to influence the SHEEP wandering through the halls . Those sheep are the chosen useful idiots that will receive an industry or private education to further the perpetuation of nonsense and to defend Caitlyn , the government , private industry and the like .
The problem is when we grow up we still cling to that same , you are a trouble maker attitude and take offense to anything that is said that goes against what we learned in the institute of lower education as it has become .
Very Un American . I fear the last generation was truly the greatest as we have forgotten how to communicate or ostrasize those who are not afraid to .
Yes , the lighting in that room is quite dim .

@Rich
You lost me here, what was the point you were trying to make?

Rich_49

Chris

the point was that nobody should be telling others how to act or communicate in our discussions with each other and homeowners . People communicate their ideas in different ways but that does not mean their ideas do not have value . People need to get over themselves and quit whining . Rule #1 shoul state that nice is subjective and does not include pointing out what you may believe is not nice to others .

SWEI

Hatterasguy said:

The question that continues to beg is "What's the difference in SYSTEM EFFICIENCY in percent?

If the mod-con can achieve 91% on baseboard, what do you believe the CI boiler (ES-2 as an example) can achieve in the same building?

At design conditions, or during the other 97.5% of the time?

ChrisJ

Rich said:

Chris

the point was that nobody should be telling others how to act or communicate in our discussions with each other and homeowners . People communicate their ideas in different ways but that does not mean their ideas do not have value . People need to get over themselves and quit whining . Rule #1 shoul state that nice is subjective and does not include pointing out what you may believe is not nice to others .

Ok, my mistake.
Argue away.....

hot_rod

Rich said:

Chris
Rich said:
the point was that nobody should be telling others how to act or communicate in our discussions with each other and homeowners . People communicate their ideas in different ways but that does not mean their ideas do not have value . People need to get over themselves and quit whining . Rule #1 shoul state that nice is subjective and does not include pointing out what you may believe is not nice to others .

I think this is a call then owner/ moderator of heating help.com gets to, and should make.

If the posts get into too much bickering and name calling, and the OP leaves and doesn't return. Not great for business.

There is a great bunch of regulars here with a wealth of knowledge, it's not a competition.

I would suggest if 4, 5, or more suggest someone is being rude, or coming across the airwaves as sounding rude, then...

4Johnpipe

It is, at times, difficult to transmit the exact ideas on a forum like this. We deal with so many variables in a new construction design. Those variables are amplified when we are called in for a retrofit situation. I can say this for fact as we just commissioned a swap out. Took out 1- 225K BTU CI boiler and 1-75K CI boiler in a tight boiler room. The existing equipment also made hot water via an indirect. The boiler room used to hover around 125 degrees just to maintain hot water for the residence. The owner purchased a small portable AC unit for the gym next to the boiler room. The other side was the TV room. Both areas were unreasonably uncomfortable in the summer when they use the space most. They also had a thermostatic wall fan to remove some of the heat to the outdoors. As of today the fans are off, the boiler room as it 72 degrees along with the adjoining rooms. Reasons for getting rid of the CI boilers are numerous and sometimes outside of the scope of pure cost or ROI notions. Perhaps we really need to focus on our customers comfort as a primary driver then cost savings secondary. As this example tells...