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Anyone else find this challenging?

Steve Minnich
Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,642
Replacing a B&G Series 60 pump in a horizontal position, 4' above the ground, by yourself, while trying to get (and keep) the pump gaskets in place? Because I sure the heck do! Any suggestions on keeping the gaskets in place would be awesome.
Author - Hard Knocks: My Life Inside Boiler Rooms
PHC News Columnist
Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/minnich-hydronic-consulting-and-design

Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,492
    I'm not a pro and have never done this, but when working on engines I often use RTV to keep gaskets in place. I've tried high tack but that failed me several times. Just a thin smear will hold it there including the next round.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Steve MinnichCanucker
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,552
    I prefer the flat gaskets with two bolt holes. Hang both gaskets from the top holes slip then pump in and rotate the gaskets.

    Sometimes a few wood blocks will help separate the piping to get room for the gaskets without binding.

    A short ladder might help hold some of then pump weight to rotate it in, or remove the motor and put it in in two lighter pieces.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,492
    I prefer steam............. :D>:)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    I prefer the flat gaskets and prying the pipes apart as HR does. It only takes a smidgen of a gap to get the gaskets in.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,552

    hot rod said:

    I prefer the flat gaskets with two bolt holes. Hang both gaskets from the top holes slip then pump in and rotate the gaskets.

    Yes, I can see the simplicity of that.

    However, I can assure you, nothing beats the capability of those o-rings to seal properly with negligible force on the flanges.

    Those flat gaskets suffer when mashed into the existing o-ring groove. If the pumps didn't have the groove, the flat gasket would be excellent.
    Not sure what you mean by the flat gaskets "suffer"?

    You will get a small imprint at the grooves, as long as you don't over torque the bolts the flat gaskets work fine.

    Flat style gaskets are shipped with most of the flange and iso-flange valves that you buy. B&G, Grundfos brand iso valves ship with flat gaskets. Mainly because they are universal size and work all pumps. Tough to find those large OEM donuts, Armstrong for example.

    With flat gaskets you can get a variety of materials also, EPDM, peroxide cured EPDM, and the red silicone for solar or other high temperature applications.

    I sold close to 5000 flat gaskets when I had the MAXROHR flange business going, never had complaints.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,492
    Just my thoughts........We seal hydraulic flanges, with a variation of an o-ring. It is basically a dual durometer, flattened o-ring. We're sealing against 3000 lbs of pressure. It might be worth looking into using hydraulic seals for circ flanges. They're not expensive.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,552
    Here is the issue with ring style gaskets, sometimes. The iso flange valves don't always have enough surface area for the ring to seal.

    Here is a Taco, Armstrong and Grundfos ring style, shipped with the circ.

    As you can see two of those slip right over the face of the flange, no seal at all on the Taco or Grundfos, the Armstrong just barely catches some brass. So for these style flanges, flat gaskets are a must. I believe the B&G is similar, maybe the same manufacturer?

    Also notice how well the flat gasket I removed sealed. It actually has multiple sealing surfaces, the flat bottom portion of the pump end, and both sides of the groove in the pump body. The bolts prevent the gasket from "escaping" if it does get over tightened.

    Unless the flange to pump dimension is off, or way mis-aligned, not much more than hand tightening is needed to seal a 30psi system with flat pump gaskets.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    RobG
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,492
    You're right...O-rings will not work on swivel flanges.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,492
    I'd use a straight-edge and a utility knife to cut slots in those flat gaskets, so they could be slid in with the circ in place.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,552
    don't care about the groove, I wish it wasn't even there :)
    I have more flat sealing surface counting the surface area on either side of the groove. I don't know how well the pic shows up, but the gasket actually has sealing surface on both inside and outside the groove in the pump body. I tried to show that with the black marker on the pump volute here.
    At least in the case of UP series Grundfos and 00 series Taco.

    True, some pumps like the Armstrongs and some Wilos and the B&G's that Wilo builds, have that wide ring and groove. A flat gasket still seals those, but less surface area to grab.

    If it is a plane, blank, non iso-valve flat flange I have a lot of sealing surface for a flat gasket, more than the ring gasket sees, actually.

    If you use is a swivel flange like the Grundfos or popular Webstone, the ring gaskets are a non starter.

    Guess my point is flat gaskets work in all cases and are often easier to slide into place. Ring gaskets do not work with many or most of the swivel flanges.

    Good idea to have both in your tool box. Some installers like to use the ring and flat gasket, that way you " fill in all the blanks"
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,642
    I ended replacing the Series 60 w/ a Wilo 2x3-35 and brought a second set of hands. It went smoothly.

    Thanks for all the input.
    Author - Hard Knocks: My Life Inside Boiler Rooms
    PHC News Columnist
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/minnich-hydronic-consulting-and-design
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,642
    One other thing, I used a B&G flange on the left hand side which bought me an extra 1/8" over the Wilo flange. Made a HUGE difference.
    Author - Hard Knocks: My Life Inside Boiler Rooms
    PHC News Columnist
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/minnich-hydronic-consulting-and-design
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,552
    Better solution yet.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Why not just make them ALL with unions? I can't quite remember but I think the union issue has come up in the past? If the pump with unions were made to the same dimensions as a flanged circ, change outs would be pretty simple.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    IMO pump flanges should have been replaced with ISO standard unions years ago.
    RobG
  • 4Johnpipe
    4Johnpipe Member Posts: 479
    Pull the pump apart lessen the weight...
    LANGAN'S PLUMBING & HEATING LLC
    Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
    732-751-1560
    email: [email protected]
    www.langansplumbing.com
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,215
    "John" Smart man.
    Ramer Mechanical
    ramermechanical.com
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    4Johnpipe
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,642
    It's really not so much the weight when replacing a pump in a horizontal line of pipe, but rather the lack of room between flanges and the fact that once you create the space the gaskets want to fall to the ground.
    Author - Hard Knocks: My Life Inside Boiler Rooms
    PHC News Columnist
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/minnich-hydronic-consulting-and-design
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    First of all Hat, is there anything that you cannot be sarcastic about?
    You will have to have a method of removing the old flange before replacing with the "Freedom Flange" no? As for cost being negligible, HR's tool is paid for one time, not every time you install a pump. As for quantity, I'm sure if you asked nicely HR would make one for you. He is a very nice man.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,552
    Hat, the Donald Trump of Heating Help :)

    I have one flange tool left if you want it. I'll get an AutoFill valve to you also.

    I've had limited success with the PM function here, send me your ship to info
    [email protected]
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    RobG
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850

    They do make a device called a "vice" which is ideal for use when trying to remove such a flange.

    ..............now, there's some sarcasm for 'ya. ;)


    I think you are missing the point of the tool, no vise required. It is not a flange, it's a tool. By the way, I don't know how an ice cold beer (my vice) could help in removing or installing a flange. ;)
    SWEIZman
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,215
    6?? You must be a lightweight Hat.
    Ramer Mechanical
    ramermechanical.com
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    RobGZman
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850

    Well, 12 could possibly cause a failure in the process.

    Only on an empty stomach. :p
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,492
    Twelve...hit it with your head, and it loosens right up.
    jonny88RobG
  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    Put a couple bolts and nuts on that flange and use the handle of your pipe wrench
    bob
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,166
    Since I started only using the gaskets that come with the circulator I have had no issues with flange seals. I just make sure the flanges are clean and spread to allow for the circulator to slide in. I use and 18" or 14" to remove the old flanges. I am either really lucky or really strong, but that usually works for me. If flanges are that hard to remove I split them with a grinder and a 1/4" cold chisel.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
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