Anyone else find this challenging?

Steve Minnich

Replacing a B&G Series 60 pump in a horizontal position, 4' above the ground, by yourself, while trying to get (and keep) the pump gaskets in place? Because I sure the heck do! Any suggestions on keeping the gaskets in place would be awesome.

ChrisJ

I'm not a pro and have never done this, but when working on engines I often use RTV to keep gaskets in place. I've tried high tack but that failed me several times. Just a thin smear will hold it there including the next round.

hot_rod

I prefer the flat gaskets with two bolt holes. Hang both gaskets from the top holes slip then pump in and rotate the gaskets.

Sometimes a few wood blocks will help separate the piping to get room for the gaskets without binding.

A short ladder might help hold some of then pump weight to rotate it in, or remove the motor and put it in in two lighter pieces.

ChrisJ

I prefer steam.............

RobG

I prefer the flat gaskets and prying the pipes apart as HR does. It only takes a smidgen of a gap to get the gaskets in.

hot_rod

Hatterasguy said:

hot rod said:

I prefer the flat gaskets with two bolt holes. Hang both gaskets from the top holes slip then pump in and rotate the gaskets.

Yes, I can see the simplicity of that.

However, I can assure you, nothing beats the capability of those o-rings to seal properly with negligible force on the flanges.

Those flat gaskets suffer when mashed into the existing o-ring groove. If the pumps didn't have the groove, the flat gasket would be excellent.

Not sure what you mean by the flat gaskets "suffer"?

You will get a small imprint at the grooves, as long as you don't over torque the bolts the flat gaskets work fine.

Flat style gaskets are shipped with most of the flange and iso-flange valves that you buy. B&G, Grundfos brand iso valves ship with flat gaskets. Mainly because they are universal size and work all pumps. Tough to find those large OEM donuts, Armstrong for example.

With flat gaskets you can get a variety of materials also, EPDM, peroxide cured EPDM, and the red silicone for solar or other high temperature applications.

I sold close to 5000 flat gaskets when I had the MAXROHR flange business going, never had complaints.

Paul48

Just my thoughts........We seal hydraulic flanges, with a variation of an o-ring. It is basically a dual durometer, flattened o-ring. We're sealing against 3000 lbs of pressure. It might be worth looking into using hydraulic seals for circ flanges. They're not expensive.

hot_rod

Here is the issue with ring style gaskets, sometimes. The iso flange valves don't always have enough surface area for the ring to seal.

Here is a Taco, Armstrong and Grundfos ring style, shipped with the circ.

As you can see two of those slip right over the face of the flange, no seal at all on the Taco or Grundfos, the Armstrong just barely catches some brass. So for these style flanges, flat gaskets are a must. I believe the B&G is similar, maybe the same manufacturer?

Also notice how well the flat gasket I removed sealed. It actually has multiple sealing surfaces, the flat bottom portion of the pump end, and both sides of the groove in the pump body. The bolts prevent the gasket from "escaping" if it does get over tightened.

Unless the flange to pump dimension is off, or way mis-aligned, not much more than hand tightening is needed to seal a 30psi system with flat pump gaskets.

Paul48

You're right...O-rings will not work on swivel flanges.

Paul48

I'd use a straight-edge and a utility knife to cut slots in those flat gaskets, so they could be slid in with the circ in place.

hot_rod

don't care about the groove, I wish it wasn't even there
I have more flat sealing surface counting the surface area on either side of the groove. I don't know how well the pic shows up, but the gasket actually has sealing surface on both inside and outside the groove in the pump body. I tried to show that with the black marker on the pump volute here.
At least in the case of UP series Grundfos and 00 series Taco.

True, some pumps like the Armstrongs and some Wilos and the B&G's that Wilo builds, have that wide ring and groove. A flat gasket still seals those, but less surface area to grab.

If it is a plane, blank, non iso-valve flat flange I have a lot of sealing surface for a flat gasket, more than the ring gasket sees, actually.

If you use is a swivel flange like the Grundfos or popular Webstone, the ring gaskets are a non starter.

Guess my point is flat gaskets work in all cases and are often easier to slide into place. Ring gaskets do not work with many or most of the swivel flanges.

Good idea to have both in your tool box. Some installers like to use the ring and flat gasket, that way you " fill in all the blanks"

Steve Minnich

I ended replacing the Series 60 w/ a Wilo 2x3-35 and brought a second set of hands. It went smoothly.

Thanks for all the input.

Steve Minnich

One other thing, I used a B&G flange on the left hand side which bought me an extra 1/8" over the Wilo flange. Made a HUGE difference.

hot_rod

Better solution yet.

RobG

Why not just make them ALL with unions? I can't quite remember but I think the union issue has come up in the past? If the pump with unions were made to the same dimensions as a flanged circ, change outs would be pretty simple.

SWEI

IMO pump flanges should have been replaced with ISO standard unions years ago.

4Johnpipe

Pull the pump apart lessen the weight...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px6CUAqAN5k

Harvey Ramer

"John" Smart man.

Steve Minnich

It's really not so much the weight when replacing a pump in a horizontal line of pipe, but rather the lack of room between flanges and the fact that once you create the space the gaskets want to fall to the ground.

RobG

Try one of HR's flange tools.

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/141723/heavy-duty-pump-flange-tool#latest

RobG

First of all Hat, is there anything that you cannot be sarcastic about?
You will have to have a method of removing the old flange before replacing with the "Freedom Flange" no? As for cost being negligible, HR's tool is paid for one time, not every time you install a pump. As for quantity, I'm sure if you asked nicely HR would make one for you. He is a very nice man.

hot_rod

Hat, the Donald Trump of Heating Help

I have one flange tool left if you want it. I'll get an AutoFill valve to you also.

I've had limited success with the PM function here, send me your ship to info
bob.rohr@caleffi.com

RobG

Hatterasguy said:

They do make a device called a "vice" which is ideal for use when trying to remove such a flange.

..............now, there's some sarcasm for 'ya.

I think you are missing the point of the tool, no vise required. It is not a flange, it's a tool. By the way, I don't know how an ice cold beer (my vice) could help in removing or installing a flange.

Harvey Ramer

6?? You must be a lightweight Hat.

RobG

Hatterasguy said:

Well, 12 could possibly cause a failure in the process.

Only on an empty stomach.

Paul48

Twelve...hit it with your head, and it loosens right up.

bob_46

Put a couple bolts and nuts on that flange and use the handle of your pipe wrench

Charlie from wmass

Since I started only using the gaskets that come with the circulator I have had no issues with flange seals. I just make sure the flanges are clean and spread to allow for the circulator to slide in. I use and 18" or 14" to remove the old flanges. I am either really lucky or really strong, but that usually works for me. If flanges are that hard to remove I split them with a grinder and a 1/4" cold chisel.