Performance-based codes

SWEI

Robert O'Brien posted this in another, unrelated discussion and I thought it really deserved its own post.

I am a huge fan of performance-based standards and would welcome this (loudly.) Giving the architect, the engineer/designer, and the contractor(s) the freedom to meet those standards using their choice of materials and techniques would be a breath of fresh air to the entire industry.

Jamie Hall

Indeed the devil is in the details, as Hatterasguy said.

That apart, in my humble (?) opinion, performance based codes are the way to go, with the only condition to my enthusiasm being that the performance standard is reasonably achievable.

Tinman

I don't know much about the topic but is sounds like it would require the people enforcing codes to know as much, or more, about the systems than the people designing them? If that's the case, I see egos getting in the way.

In a perfect world, it would seem to be the best way to go.

SWEI

Obviously this would require some coordinated code making effort, but the result ought to be a lot less complex than the current hairball of prescriptive language we have to deal with.

Robert O'Brien

It's the way to go,set a reasonable target and how you hit it is up to you. Makes life easier for everybody

Rich_49

Variable flow , variable velocity , outdoor reset and modulation would all be accepted in the code they speak of , the low end will become even more important now .
The architects however will now have to watch the size of windows , cut down on nonsense details that are a **** to heat and cool and all the trades that just slap it together will have to do performance based work with air sealing and insulation . Altogether , not a bad thing .

SWEI

An incentive for architects to collaborate with others in the design process? Might just offend a few of the higher and mightier crowd, but if we really want to have better buildings long term it really is the answer.

Rich_49

Ah Hah ! Integrated Project Design & Delivery .I have had conversations with a few from the site about just such a thing .

Here is the other end of the problem that far too few seem to envision . New buildings are getting tighter and older stock is being torn down or undergoing Deep Energy Retrofit . We are positioned to rule this market and make a lion's share of the money if we are willing to perform the work necessary to insure we install the systems that heat and cool the buildings . I fear that dumb things will continue to be done by those in the hydronic and ducted segments though that will have our piece of the pie being enjoyed by Home performance guys who really don't get what we know save for a select few .

Time to really pay attention is here , who recognizes this within this group ? Maybe we could have a civilized discussion about how to move forward , share ideas and develop stuff that is simple yet not been done and find some manufacturing partners for the ideas .
Anyone who does not want to be part of the solution , please decline from commenting , your input is not needed .

Robert O'Brien

Rich said:

Ah Hah ! Integrated Project Design & Delivery .I have had conversations with a few from the site about just such a thing .

Here is the other end of the problem that far too few seem to envision . New buildings are getting tighter and older stock is being torn down or undergoing Deep Energy Retrofit . We are positioned to rule this market and make a lion's share of the money if we are willing to perform the work necessary to insure we install the systems that heat and cool the buildings . I fear that dumb things will continue to be done by those in the hydronic and ducted segments though that will have our piece of the pie being enjoyed by Home performance guys who really don't get what we know save for a select few .

Time to really pay attention is here , who recognizes this within this group ? Maybe we could have a civilized discussion about how to move forward , share ideas and develop stuff that is simple yet not been done and find some manufacturing partners for the ideas .
Anyone who does not want to be part of the solution , please declone from commenting , your input is not needed .

By civilized you mean only people who agree with you? I'm not going to declone (sic) from commenting, I wasn't aware you decided whose input was needed or not!

4Johnpipe

It is an interesting idea...I can see the building departments liking this simple code because they will have a concrete pass or fail condition. The equipment is either as specified or not period. I do see a period of bumps and bruises along the way. It would be wonderful to say to the client "my equipment is exactly as specified you have to go bother the architect and the general contractor as they did not build proper wall systems and made the windows too big or too many of them undersized insulation etc...". If we are talking bout achieving a number it is one thing...If the building doesn't heat in the winter that is another thing entirely...

Rich_49

Robert O'Brien said:

Rich said:

Ah Hah ! Integrated Project Design & Delivery .I have had conversations with a few from the site about just such a thing .

Here is the other end of the problem that far too few seem to envision . New buildings are getting tighter and older stock is being torn down or undergoing Deep Energy Retrofit . We are positioned to rule this market and make a lion's share of the money if we are willing to perform the work necessary to insure we install the systems that heat and cool the buildings . I fear that dumb things will continue to be done by those in the hydronic and ducted segments though that will have our piece of the pie being enjoyed by Home performance guys who really don't get what we know save for a select few .

Time to really pay attention is here , who recognizes this within this group ? Maybe we could have a civilized discussion about how to move forward , share ideas and develop stuff that is simple yet not been done and find some manufacturing partners for the ideas .
Anyone who does not want to be part of the solution , please declone from commenting , your input is not needed .

By civilized you mean only people who agree with you? I'm not going to declone (sic) from commenting, I wasn't aware you decided whose input was needed or not!

No Robert , not only people that agree with me . People , whomever they may be who have something of value to offer . If that is you welcome . I was referring to anyone who believes that all is just fine and there is no work to do .

You take things too personally , case in point , I do very detailed heat loss calcs where as you do not and when I pointed out that the way you perform your sizing for replacement equipment may be flawed , all your estrogen came flowing right out . I am guessing you are the one whom has a problem with difference of opinion . You knew that was gonna be frowned upon and opened up posting on Mechanical Hub based upon that premise . Feel free to join any discussion I am involved in whether you agree or not , the only way progress is made is through debate . Again , welcome .

Robert O'Brien

Your condescension is immeasurable! As much a treat to read as the ad hominem attacks you engage in here as well as through PM's! I'm glad you give me permission to post! Got a nice jab in at Mechanical Hub as well,touche! You're a real class act!

Rich_49

I did not see a jab at MH . I know Eric and have lots of respect for John also .
Very kind of you to point out to everyone that my finger was one inch to the right and hit the o as opposed to the i . You are quite the Mensch !

4Johnpipe

Performance based codes...these are a reality. Maybe not everywhere yet however they are coming. This needs and will be the natural evolution of our industry. If not I am afraid we will simply pass off the scene...
We (Hydronics) as an industry tout efficiency. Well now we are seeing this coming to the codes.
@Robert O'Brien Rich has an unequalled passion for the industry as a whole. We have talked privately at great lengths on this over the years. He as well as I have evolved on how we design and implement systems and will continue to do so until some form of an even playing field is realized. I see an invitation here to all concerned with bettering the industry. Did not see condescension as mentioned.
Perhaps we all suffer from a touch of Irish Guilt in knowing that systems installed in years passed could have been better. I know I did. The best way to overcome this is to have a forum where all methods are discussed and the best parts can be highlighted and put into practice at once!
If we are presented with a "performance" based code I would offer that only knowing the performance of a system through a detailed heat loss can be of any benefit...
Just a thought...

Jamie Hall

Only comment I would make... and I've hit it before. I much prefer performance based codes (and other regulations). They are much superior to any of the prescriptive types. In our heating and cooling field, provided the code figures are reasonable they should be much much easier to work with -- although I anticipate considerable finger pointing when a building doesn't perform as wanted (it's the architect's fault. No, it's the building contractor. No, it's the company who didn't rate the boiler right. No, it's...)

The pitfall will come in application to historic buildings, and is the same pitfall which occurs with such widely varied things as disability access and plumbing codes and fire codes and... just how is the code to be applied? This is not a problem for a full rebuild or remodel, although if that is the objective it is often simpler and cheaper to push the old building in a build new (which is wasteful in itself, but that's not usually considered) -- where it comes in is where one is attempting a true historical renovation. Granted, a very small field -- but, in my somewhat biased view, an important one.

Gordy

This would be awesome. lets face it the real variables are envelope design, and construction. The real constants are heating, and cooling that envelope. The math does not lie for conditioning a space. What does lie is the condition/parameters of the envelopes to condition.

This throws variables to be more tightly controlled into the architects, and builders court. Wouldn't it be nice to do a project where you are told the conditioning SF requirement, and that is what it will be. If not it's not on the hvac installers design so long as their end is properly done.

I see muddy waters in coming up with btu, and watts per SF. For given regions, climates, and types of buildings. Who will decide that? Who will have input? What entity will take responsibility if that number is to low, and the owner runs into unseasonable climate conditions?

I see equipment manufactors having to get down low with equipment modulation in smaller homes.

As been said I also see historical projects, and meager renovations exempt from, or having different thresholds for this.

SWEI

Agreed - rehabs will be a challenge, especially for historical buildings. OTOH, we have been able to achieve some pretty impressive performance from some pretty old buildings and I for one would welcome the challenge.

Just forcing the conversation about what really needs to be done on a remodel would be quite a change. How much overt idiocy have all of us seen over the years (particularly with house flippers and near-slumlords)?

BobC

They have to do something to make sure systems are installed correctly, there is too much shoddy work

Two houses on my block sold recently and they ripped out the near 100 year old FHW, scrapped the radiators and installed the cheapest possible forced hot air. One of the houses has the sidewall vents 2 ft off the ground and we often get 4 to 6 foot drifts in bad storms in this area.

I told the new owner to have that venting redone, with the language barrier I don't know if he really understood me.

Bob