Long island boiler market

jonny88

A quick ?
Any suggestions on how to crack into the boiler market on Long Island.Very small company and I find it impossible to compete against the Series 2 and hot water heater installers who do it for such a low cost.If I am trying to sell a quality product professionally designed etc with quality products how do you get work or is it a case of lowering your standards and do what the others do.Homeowners please chime in would love feedback.What are the selling points that make you go this way.Many thanks.

Rich_49

Jonny . Never lower your standards . You will not be pleased with yourself . When you bid against these others show the customer value , the others won't be able to . Spend the appropriate amount of time asking them what they want and need and design for that . just give them the facts and refer them to sites like this where they can clearly see what happens . Finally , make sure they know that when it goes wrong with another contractor that you'll be more than happy to diagnose and repair what went wrong if at all possible . Math and truth never lie .

jonny88

Thanks Rich.Getting a little disheartening.How much goes into your preparation when you visit a potential customer.From the fortunate experience I had working with you on a project I can see it is quite labor intensive.Also is there a reason why Burnham is the choice of Nat Grid.And how come if a customer uses a Value plus Nat Grid installer they (national Grid) never check the work.Note to homeowners it is not difficult to get on that list just as long as you are willing to pay for a share of the market.
I really hope you can achieve your goals in setting the standard a little higher.Thanks Rich.

Robert O'Brien

".Also is there a reason why Burnham is the choice of Nat Grid"
Take a wild guess!

Robert O'Brien

Rich is correct about value,but it's not his,mine or your idea of value but the consumers!
!

jonny88

but is it not our job to point consumers in the right way or at least inform them what they get from the one day wonders.

Rich_49

The cheaper the units they approve and install , the more money stays within their accounts my friend . plain and simple . John and I fought this for a long time where none of our installs qualified for anything even though they were much better than what was being installed .
One ploy is to tell you your choice is not a registered as Energy Star on the website . Savvy contractors will then send them the certification that is current and end the discussion right there . The less money they pay out , the more they get to keep , even if only for awhile . Interest on billions in your account over a year is quite a motivator . John and I still regularly have to tell the program administrators not to look up our stuff on the State level site they turn to but instead the National data base that is regularly updated .
took many years of frustration to figure it out but now we have it . this goes on everywhere where there are programs , it is not just New York . Mass , Vermont and NJ happen to be the worst offenders though .
you have to be in tune also just as with equipment . When someone says , " Up to 5,460.00 Rebate " you can bet not many of that amount get paid .

Rich_49

Robert O'Brien said:

Rich is correct about value,but it's not his,mine or your idea of value but the consumers!
!

Robert , Value and perceived value are 2 completely different things .
A thing that costs 1,000.00 dollars more but uses 10% less energy to do the same job is easily shown in a math equation . For those who cannot determine the difference there is no help .

Robert O'Brien

Perception is reality

josieT

I'll give you the homeowner's take. I think the unfortunate reality is that these systems are too complex for the average Joe to understand. We're making a best guess on what to do. Unfortunately, we're all price conscious. Being honest, I think more than a 10% premium is hard to swallow for the average homeowner.

If you're coming in with a better quality product & install, then you really have to be able defend the extra price. Is one boiler more reliable than the other? Is one easier to service? If so, why? Why are the other products less reliable? What's the higher price going to get me?

I remember I got sold on my mod/con for both heating and hot water because the contractors (who are good sales guys) talked up the efficiency, size, the 2 in 1, no chimney liner.. they had plenty of good reasons. What I failed to see was what they weren't telling me. The limited hot water, more costly yearly servicing, irrelevant efficiency numbers e.g. '92%' because my house is so old. Heck what does '92%' efficient mean? 92% of what?

If you come in as knowledgeable, and explain the pros and cons of different options as objectively as possible, you'll gain the trust of the buyer,

The main things in my mind are 1) come across as sincere skilled contractor (which you do) not an sales guy 2) Really be able to back up your recommendation without sounding arrogant, tactfully suggest why other options 3) Be as detailed as you can in the proposal. it shows that you are thorough. Hopefully a lot of the proposal can be boilerplate. 4) try to get on social media, things like Angies List if you're targeting the mid-market homeowner. I know this last suggestion may sound beneath highly qualified contractors. But nothing speaks to a homeowner more than reviews and references.

Anyway my 2 cents.

josieT

@Hatterasguy Great point. If you're putting in a radiant floor and designing a system for that, it's a 'luxury' item and probably can be priced as such. For something like a boiler replacement, there has to be justification to make it worthwhile to pick a high end boiler and heater vs another well-known brand but lower cost. A lot heating systems that are not 'state of the art' work beautifully. I recall looking at my mother-in-laws boiler room (good grief... I never imagined myself to be interested in looking at people's heating systems -- now everywhere I go, I'm studying it!) ... it was a burnham, with a couple of circulators... filled up a relatively small closet ) ... works like a champ. She gets it serviced every year and never had issues. Again it's simple, not a lot of parts.

Now in a house like mine, that's very leaky, it's different, the design is much more critical. But again, I had no idea that I needed a better design until I was educated by a good designer.

Having the justification is really important. People can relate to picking a BMW vs a Yugo (was that the name of the clunker in the 80's?) But heating systems, most folks will have no idea. To whatever degree you can help educate people, that will help win them over. (although for folks like me, I can wear people down wanting to understand everything.)

jonny88

I get your point Mr H.An ES2 with odr is a great compromise which i can attest to.But where the hell is the market for Veissmann,Lochinvar etc.Ever cut open a 15yr old water heater.Yuk.I agree with JosieT a combi has no place in a house with more than one bathroom and unfortunatly she is a real victim of the worst of what is out there.But she got sold on it.I guess that is my main ? can a good salesman sell you anything.Then thinking out loud who am I to the next customer.Maybe they are looking at me as being a salesman.Problem is as you know a reputable mod con install is quite a lot of money.Doesn't mean contractor makes more on install.I am rambling,just a little frustrated.By the way if I do an oil to gas conversion for some reason it takes me more than a day.New gas line,reline chimney.Boiler removal.Boiler install.Wiring of boiler and inspection.Good days work.

jonny88

BTW I haven't used the Burnham ODR yet I use the Taco ODr.You Make some great points.But on the other side when I was on the Nat Grid plan I was installing ES2 quite a lot.Burnham never told us about a recall on the pilot assembly.I personally had about a 60% failure rate.This made for quite a few interesting phone calls from the customers.

Robert O'Brien

Hatterasguy said:

jonny88 said:

I get your point Mr H.An ES2 with odr is a great compromise which i can attest to.But where the hell is the market for Veissmann,Lochinvar etc.

ODR is an interesting discussion on the ES2. It's a $450 addition to the price for the board alone. Can you put an amount on the savings generated from ODR? Can you save 5%? A grand total of $70. per year? You still have to sell this as an option. This one part could put you out of the game if you include it in the price.

Viessmann has a place. It's generally in larger houses where cost isn't a major issue. HOWEVER, it still must be sold. When the customer asks why he should spend another $6K for the Viessmann, what do you tell him? The warranty on the boiler is no better and the durability hasn't shown itself to be any better. Customer support is most certainly no better. And the comfort level in the building is no better. So, what exactly is he buying? Until you can deliver a good answer beside the fancy cabinet, you cannot sell such a unit.

What do you think you're getting when you buy a Mercedes-Benz? 30 years ago, when the car cost $85,000, you had a product that was legendary for quality and durability. Today, you get the star on the hood and the capability to brag to your friends.

The Mercedes has no better warranty, no better durability, no better resale value, and no better capability to delivery transportation than most any other sedan on the market today.

You're correct except for two items,price and durability. Contrary to popular opinion they are no more expensive than the competition,at least here. As the person who has to fix the broken ones and listen to the ensuing complaints, I feel they are better quality than the vast majority of the competition. Just based on my observations over many years.

jonny88

I am looking into the HTP and spoke with Rich on it.Would love to get the chance to put one in.I do try to use the chimney as often as possible as a chase for exhaust.Centrotherm makes a great product.I am not a fan of sidewall venting when it can be avoided.

Rich_49

US Boiler has no need to be interested in the end user . They have Nat'l Grid selling their equipment for them

josieT

@jonny88 what's the issue with side wall venting like what I have. Just curious. I actually wanted chimney too. The main issue was the venting was done through a window and then I had to hire a masonry guy to brick up the window to meet code. So it ended up being a pain as opposed to using the chimney. But other than that, it works fine.

jonny88

Just a preference.I like to exhaust from to of chimney as most people dont like to see exhaust "plume" coming from side of house.Also there is a lot of restrictions with side wall venting which can make it hard to find a convenient spot.Not saying I have never done it and have used concentric venting many times I just prefer the chimney .

Mad Dog_2

Jonny: my two cents. The Long Island boiler market WAS my hunting ground. In the early 2000s up until the crash of 2007-2008, to paraphrase FDR: "..there was a dumpster on EVERY Block (chicken in every pot)..in fact most blocks had 6-8 dumpsters! When the economy was relatively flush, selling Buderus GBS and radiant for the new kitchen or extension was a weekly occurence. We were good salesmen, but Folks had the disposable income for a good capital investment like that. My niche was The MegaSteam, Mod cons, Rinnai tanklesses and radiant. We didn't want to even bother with regular plumbing....when we could being to doing cool stuff like snowmelt and even a few Solar thermal jobs. Then, the well went dry. Don't kid yourself or sell your selling skills short. The economy still stinks. The Meat and Potato work horses like Burnham ES2 (sorry guys...Burnham is a solid American boiler Company that usually does the right thing) will pay the bills and keep your company above board. You have to work much harder to sell the more efficient stuff, you'll get a few, then build from their. Do u have a good website, Jonny? Mad Dog

jonny88

Hi Mad Dog a website I am working on.I was using a company to do it but they screwed everything up but someone on this site offered to help.Look forward to bumping heads at the picnic.Bring the rugby ball.

RobG

On the advertising side, does anyone actually pay for a yellow pages ad nowadays? I quit that about 15-20 years ago. I don't even get calls from their sales people anymore. Hell, I don't know if they even have a yellow page's. A couple of times a year some vandal tosses a small yellow book in my yard that goes directly into the trash. (sorry, don't want to hijack the thread).

Robert O'Brien

jonny88 said:

Just a preference.I like to exhaust from to of chimney as most people dont like to see exhaust "plume" coming from side of house.Also there is a lot of restrictions with side wall venting which can make it hard to find a convenient spot.Not saying I have never done it and have used concentric venting many times I just prefer the chimney .

Absolutely!

Mad Dog_2

Ha ha Ill bring a rugby ball, but you can ruck and maul with my Nephew Bart and his Stony Brook National Champ rugby mates....my Rugby, arm wrestling, and head-butting contest days are long over....unless I hit power Ball....then...Im goin in...Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

Yellow book was good when I first started up for name recognition and developing an after-hours emergency service business. After that, it just a VERY expensive way to advertise with minimal qua;ity returns. Mad Dog

Harvey Ramer

Quit trying to sell boilers and sell yourself. That should be your first priority from the very first contact with a customer. They have to like you first. After that is accomplished, their ear will be more attuned to what you are saying and less focused on the bottom line pricing. Once someone likes and trust you, find out what they are looking for and roll with it as long as its not compromising your standards. Also, inform them of all the solutions and products they probably haven't heard of. People like to shop. It's not always about what you want to install, sometimes it's about what they can afford. You cannot squeeze blood from a turnip. Never try to sell a customer ODR. They don't know what it is, don't understand it and they like simple. Sell them comfort and fix their temp fluctuations in their house.

The social aspect of making sales is horribly neglected by many. And it is quite important. When I started my business, I was 23 years old. I got some BS jobs but not really what I wanted. The solution, I grew a beard. It made me look 10 years older and my sales improved dramatically. Now at 31, I shaved my beard off again and here we go. New customers comment and question my youth and ability to accomplish their projects. I just pretend I didn't hear it and lower my voice 2 octaves and proceed with business.

Robert O'Brien

http://enewspro.penton.com/preview/contractingbusiness/CB-01/20150612_CB-01_85/display?elqTrack=true

Mad Dog_2

Good advice, Harvey...OR if you have employees sell the whole crew. That was always an interesting transition, when you added employees. ...people still wanted YOU:
"Where's Matt...is he coming? We want matt here". MAD DOG

jonny88

Double the price for the liner.How is 100k oversized.I was in a 2000sqft home yesterday and thats even if it was that size and boiler was 165000.Plus a hot water heater.I am going to get something made up showing your idea Mr H.Fantastic.
One ? do you have any issue with the heat xchanger.

jonny88

GPM are main concern.I get a lot of requests 2 showers running together etc.Can you match it.I love the idea and appreciate the time you put into it.

jonny88

@4johnpipe ,please if you will,walk me through the operation of that unit.Is there an internal heat exchanger ?Or give me model# and I will go to site thanks.

RobG

I must be missing something. If you are maintaining a tank at 160 degrees or higher to make hot water, what is the point in using a condensing boiler? I understand that modulation comes into play to help with short cycling but that seems about it to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the product nor have I studied the literature.

Paul Pollets

I've always wondered about the LI boiler market. A lot of the choices are determined by "others" rather than the sales skills and expertise of the heating contractor. Those skills are in very short supply these days. It's too bad Viessmann doesn't seem to have a very large presence in LI or the Hudson Valley. It seems they could afford the marketing costs, but aren't connecting with the major players or reps. I remember hearing from a well known radiant guy from the area 10 years ago who commented "the largest local oil supplier had great fears of teaching his techs any other burner but a Beckett". Sounds like missed opportunities. Everybody buys a Ford or a Chevy.

jonny88

@RobG ,Hatterasguy is giving an alternative so WE can compete with the HWH crew.He is pulling the rabbit out of the hat,I am certainly going to use this approach on my next customer.Everything has their limitations and he is designing something in the same price range as Series 2 HWH.I say great job and thanks.Very interesting product.

RobG

I believe that Hot Rod uses a Munchkin and a brazed plate and it goes into high fire when domestic is called for. That way he has no standby losses and will still condense in heating mode. Those Gianoni heat exchangers heat up quick! I think it would be cheaper than the Pioneer.

RobG

@Hatterasguy HR's system is a hybrid, wood, solar and LP. Storage is necessary. On a standard heating system why not just use a combi or flat plate for domestic? Why keep a tank of hot water in a high efficiency unit that will not operate at it's peak performance? It just seems to me to be pointless. I would not have a problem using it for space heating as it would cut down cycling as it would operate on OAR , but as a combi it just seems pointless.

Rich_49

RobG said:

I believe that Hot Rod uses a Munchkin and a brazed plate and it goes into high fire when domestic is called for. That way he has no standby losses and will still condense in heating mode. Those Gianoni heat exchangers heat up quick! I think it would be cheaper than the Pioneer.

Rob , The munchkin is no longer available and you would be incorrect thinking it would be cheaper . We have to begin to think about solutions like this as a trade if we want to compete with and eliminate garbage . A 1/2* an hour standby loss is nothing to even consider , If one was to do their job and set the controls properly the boiler would only fire every day and consume 11K to get up to temp . If you go away you put it on a vacation type setting and there is less loss .
Adding a simple ISeries ODR valve for little additional cost allows the boiler to make the high temps Hatt is talking about and fire real low with STILL very low RWTs . Everyone has got to stop waiting for a manufacturer to solve their problems for them and put together packages that have the ability to do multiple tasks as efficiently as possible . And for Christ's sake stop questioning and looking for problems when a manufacturer does give us products that solve these issues . No wonder nobody will R & D new products for us . We have become a bunch of damned whiners . Many of these products were in fact built for us because some of us talked to mans and they addressed the need .
Hat , SWEI ,
HTP has only a couple combustion assemblies for many of their units . These are programmable in various ways . Although you can derate a product to a lower firing rate does not necessarily mean you should . The units are designed and programmed for the packages in which they are installed . The UFT is coming out in short order , it will be available at some point as a 100K and an 80K . The 120 is the start of the residential end , all will have 10:1 turndown capability .

Rich_49

Johnny ,

If you need more hot water for showers try turning down the temp at the unit . cooler water equals more GPM using the same energy . Most folks can hardly tolerate hotter than 106* anyway . HTp also already makes the unit Hat is talking about which makes install less complicated and again programming can enable fine tuning for your needs , it also comes with the Taco 5000 DHW mixing valve . Look up Versa Flame

jonny88

Thanks Rich,Again we are trying to compete with Series 2 +HWH.I really think this is a great solution.Going to look up Versa Flame.They sure do make a lot of products.I have to get Dominic onboard as he is a BPI contractor and can offer people loans through NYSERDA.We have done many jobs together this way.Interest rate is great.It was nice to see 4Johnpipe showing the unit,I will spend time today on their website.

Rich_49

All return water to the pioneer goes to the bottom of the tank similar to a water heater . No further investigation is required , it is covered in the I&L manual and has been for quite some time . Why would you deliver 130* to a shower that has a national high temp limit as per code of 120* ? You are raising the temp 10* more than allowed by law or necessary since it will be mixed down anyway . The other forgotten aspect is that a 2.75 GPM showerhead does not use 2.75 gpm of hot water , it mixes there also . Remember , because this is the most overlooked aspect of every discussion here and in the field . These are SYSTEMS . You cannot ignore how one system will counteract or interact and utilize the product given it by another system . This is very disturbing .
After measuring temps at bathing vessels and showers for 30+ years I can safely say that the vast majority of folks do not use hot water at a temp higher than 110* . One would have to familiarize themselves intimately with the numerous studies and research done on this subject as it pertains to the plumbing aspect and the effects of water temp , thermal shock and such on humans . There are already enough bad installs and overlooked stuff that the mere mortal with or w/o a license understands . What you are suggesting would just make the problem worse and increase the ignorant contractors exposure to litigation and the unsuspecting homeowners to a trip to the hospital . You need a solution that limits the temp able to be delivered , every home does not have single handled fixtures , as a matter of fact most high end homes have 2 handle faucets with an 8" spread . What happens when Little Brian turns on the hot handle only ? What happens when the trial lawyers get involved and the fingers start pointing ? Remember that in a court of law this was your idea . Welcome to the world of designing for the masses and limiting your exposure .

http://www.asse-plumbing.org/WaterHeaterScaldHazards.pdf

jonny88

This Rich is why I always use a mixing valve on i directs set for a max of 120.Recently installed a A.O.Smith on demand for a deli. Customer got unit.Anyhow I ste water for 120 as the use a 3 compartment sink for washing.2 days later I went back and unit was raised to 165.i got a letter from owner saying he raised it and would not let me keep it at 120. No dishwasher

4Johnpipe

@jonny88 check this out
http://www.htproducts.com/versaflame.html
This is the Pioneer with a flat plate HX, circulator for HX and a taco 5000 series thermostatic mixing valve all installed. Remeber the specifications for domestic hot water are per minute..heck a 75 gallon standard gas is only about 1.75 GPM's. The Pioneer large size is 288 GPH thats a lot of hot water...