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Need to build a SMALL steam system cheaply

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2

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  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited May 2015
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    Science Researcher said:

    It's a public school. None of this is relevant.


    You came here for guidance on your project correct? The number 1 goal for us is to make it a safe project for everyone involved.

    We as participants of this web site, and whom ever chooses to participate in helping you ( this web site, or else where) do not wish to be a part of a major law suit because wrong information was either given, or mistaken, and used in a manner not condusive to the saftey of all involved.

    Your posts seem to be of a mature nature. More so than an average High School level individual. Dont take that comment the wrong way. If indeed you are as you say then it is a compliment. If not then that goes with out saying.

    Just so you understand the danger potential a true story I personally witnessed about pressure cookers.

    My grandfather went through the pressure cooker craze. He had a kitchen in his basement in addition to his main kitchen.

    One day he was pressure cooking a chicken recipe in the basement. He for got about the cooker while it was on high fire, and he moved on to the outdoors to do some things. My cousin, and I were also outside when we heard a loud explosion that came from the basement..

    We all ran in the house to see what happend. Well the relief valve on the pressure cooker plugged with what ever was in it the lid blew off, and there were actually chicken bones stuck into the wooden floor joists above. The pressure cooker was a total loss, and that put an end to Gramps pressure cooker craze. Thank god no one was in the vicinity when it happend.

    So number one priority you have to control is stored energy!

  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,478
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    Back in the early 60's my sister was using a pressure cooker for something whenthe relief valve got plugged. She was in the Living room when it let go, the lid went through the plaster ceiling and wrapped itself around the 2X10 joist in the ceiling. It took some effort to peal that 1/8" thick aluminum cover off that joist.

    Pressurized steam has to be treated with a lot of respect, you need a pressure relief valve that can handle the latent energy and you should also have a pressure gauge so you can what is going on. If things get away from you there could be serious consequences.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    I think it would be "irresponsible" to not offer advice on the safest way for him to do his project. The project he will most likely do, with or without our help. I think, at this time, we need to have communications with his teacher. Jim_R.......There's a time in every kids life, that all you can do is hope they don't kill themselves, or someone else. If your kid comes to you and tells you about a dangerous plan (no matter what the plan),you offer advice. There's probably half-a -dozen other dangerous things they will do, and never tell you about them.
    RobG
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,677
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    Hatterasguy said:

    The other alternative is to perpetually tell the kid, "you can't do that...........you MIGHT get hurt".

    You end up with an adult that can't do anything because he took no risks as a child.

    Life is fraught with risk.............it needs to be weighed.

    Men have died from simply removing insulation from a high pressure steam pipe due to the cold triggering water hammer.

    Steam isn't something you play with and learn as you go, often you don't get the chance to learn.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    "You'll shoot your eye out"............Get my point? The better answer would be to have the kid take a course on gun safety. Maybe have them save and pay for the course, before getting that "Red Rider BeeBee gun.
    At 12 yrs old, I could have bought Thompson sub-machine guns for $100 each, and grenades for $50 each. We need to keep it real.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Paul I remember when we were kids in town we would go all over the neighborhood with BB guns shooting black birds etc. some times each other. No one said a word.

    Today is a different story the neighbors kid had a pellet gun out in the yard. someone drove by called the cops six of them showed up.

    The world has changed because of idiots ,and lawyers.
    RobG
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    That's all true.......Gun safety is a whole different topic. It's more about giving kids the tools they need to survive. Anyone that comes here, could sue someone that gave them advice. You can't live your life based on that. There is an unwritten disclaimer, that just getting out of bed in the morning has put your life at risk. I've had breakfast at some diners, where that becomes, all too evident.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,677
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    Oh good, we're talking politics again instead of steam safety.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Somehow, I think we need to validate that this actually is a"school Project". As I said earlier, it just doesn't feel right. I don't know of any high school that gives a kid $100.00 and tells them to go out and create something that can kill themselves, unsupervised, especially since he has to come here to figure out how to do it. Where is his teacher and why isn't he/she providing that guidance? It is true that you can't watch these kids all the time and that they do things that often hurt themselves and that is a risk they foolishly take when they do something silly. The other issue is who else gets hurt, not anticipating that foolishness?
    ChrisJ
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    ChrisJ.......who said anything about politics? As I said earlier, we need to have some communication with this persons teacher. This discussion, is clearly about safety.
    ChrisJ
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
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    RobG said:

    Even easier, use a standard pot of whatever size you require and drill a hole in the lid and a hole in the side below the water line, braze soft copper tubing to the lid and the side, the lid will act as your pressure relief, attach a pressure gauge with a pigtail to the side of the pot above the water line. Weight the top of the pot until you get the pressure you want. Just be careful, steam is nothing to be trifled with. You can then adjust the flame to maintain the pressure you desire.

    This is a post that I made earlier. Other than brazing in some soft copper and adding a pressure gauge it is no more dangerous than making a pot of chicken soup.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,677
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    RobG said:

    RobG said:

    Even easier, use a standard pot of whatever size you require and drill a hole in the lid and a hole in the side below the water line, braze soft copper tubing to the lid and the side, the lid will act as your pressure relief, attach a pressure gauge with a pigtail to the side of the pot above the water line. Weight the top of the pot until you get the pressure you want. Just be careful, steam is nothing to be trifled with. You can then adjust the flame to maintain the pressure you desire.

    This is a post that I made earlier. Other than brazing in some soft copper and adding a pressure gauge it is no more dangerous than making a pot of chicken soup.
    Out of everything, besides my awesome idea, of course, ;) I think yours is probably the simplest and safest.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,677
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    Hatterasguy said:

    ChrisJ said:



    Men have died from simply removing insulation from a high pressure steam pipe due to the cold triggering water hammer.

    Steam isn't something you play with and learn as you go, often you don't get the chance to learn.

    Men have died simply crossing the road.

    Vehicles are not something you play with and learn as you go, often you don't get the chance to learn.



    Men have died fixing the antenna on their roof.

    Houses are not something you play with and learn as you go, often you don't get the chance to learn.


    Men have died repairing a vehicle.

    Vehicles are not something you play with and learn as you go, often you don't get the chance to learn.


    Men have died driving to work in the morning.

    Vehicles are not something you play with and learn as you go, often you don't get the chance to learn.



    Men have died repairing their electric service.

    Electricity is not something you play with and learn as you go, often you don't get the chance to learn.


    Men have died installing their own steam boiler. The boiler tipped over on them. Boilers are not something you play with and learn as you go, often you don't get the chance to learn.


    You didn't install your own boiler, did you? No, I'm sure you would not do that with the risks involved.

    Seriously?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
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    Hatterasguy said:

    Life is a series of risks every day you get up on the sunny side.

    You must weigh them all.

    Obviously you have weighed the risk of installing the steam boiler and discounted it.

    Therefore, you should reserve judgment against someone else who has discounted the risk of working on a steam system. You don't even know their risk.

    I think ChrisJ did install his own steam boiler. If I am remembering correctly he did a better Job than a lot of "pro" work that we see on the site.
    ChrisJ
  • Science Researcher
    Science Researcher Member Posts: 17
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    Thanks, I've added that to my materials list.
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
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    Science Researcher said:

    Thanks, I've added that to my materials list.

    What is it that you added and which scenario are you planning on using?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Science Researcher said:

    Thanks, I've added that to my materials list.

    LOL! Everybody is crazy!!!
  • Science Researcher
    Science Researcher Member Posts: 17
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    Rob, sorry, I didn't see that there was a second page of comments and was replying to the comments about a steam relief valve on the first page.
  • Science Researcher
    Science Researcher Member Posts: 17
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    As it happened, the second page is almost entirely a debate on parenting tactics and whether or not I'm a high school student. As I've said before, I am well aware of the dangers of steam and the dangers of steam under pressure. As I've said before, I am part of a science research class at a public high school. I even posted my design schematic and general location. If you don't believe that I'm a real student, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's no reason to turn this thread into a politics club. I came here looking for help on building this schematic and frankly it's kind of insulting that everyone here thinks I'm a terrorist or going to get myself killed. I intend to take every precaution necessary to make this project a reality, and I'd like to reiterate that I am very thankful to anyone that has already provided advice.
    RobG
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,478
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    IMHO most are just trying to make sure you understand what can happen if something goes wrong. We really want you to be carefull, if things go south they usually go south VERY fast.

    stay safe,

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    Provided that you do not allow any isolation valves on this project that could allow the significant accumulation of steam energy, you should not have any cataclysmic steam explosions, but also need to be aware that live steam can take flesh off like washing dirt off with soap and water. Be very aware as you move forward. Also be aware that certain pipes (rubber hoses) are not rated for the temperatures you will be exposing them to. With that said, your secondary post cooler could be as simple as a tube in tube heat exchanger made by using a 1" piece of copper pipe with a 1 x 3/4 x 3/4" tee on both ends. Drill the stop out of the run of the tee to allow a piece of copper pipe to be inserted through the 1" pipe. Steam runs through the center 3/4" pipe and water through the annulus between the 1" & 3/4" pipes. Everything will need to be silver soldered or brazed together due to the temperature potential it is being exposed to.

    Choke flow of water going IN to the heat exchanger only. Length of this assembly will be dictated by the wattage being being applied. My guess is that for each foot of tube and tube exchanger you should be able to handle 300 btuH, which would equate to 1,000 watts.

    Not sure why you are trying to use steam to cool the flow through the device, but I think the tube and tube exchanger I described can be used more efficiently to cool the steam being generated, but that is just my humble opinion, and you know better what it is that you are trying to accomplish.

    I would HOPE that your school still has a trade class, and if so, one of the shop instructors may be able to assist you on the brazing aspect of the project, if they don't have one, they should have one. College degrees are nice, but getting it paid for by your employer is really much better. Worse case, you may have to ask a plumber for assistance.

    I'd generate you a drawing but am working from the airport in Rome Italy and have no drawing capabilities.

    To the worry warts of the bunch, if this kid was hell bent on destruction, he can find all he needs under his moms kitchen sink and instructions on line and do a lot more damage than he can with this small steam project. Caution is definitely warranted, but I think we have that covered .

    Buon Viaggio!

    And arrivaderci Roma.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    ZmanRobG
  • Kakashi
    Kakashi Member Posts: 88
    edited May 2015
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    Moonshine. If you need a relief valve just use a tea kettle as the "boiler". Two drilled holes on the top, one pipe stays on the top and the other goes almost all the bottom. Put the "boiler" under your doohickey and use gravity to your advantage.

    I wouldn't use rubber hose on this.
  • Science Researcher
    Science Researcher Member Posts: 17
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    Thank you Mark. Someone else had suggested copper tubing before, which is much cheaper than rubber and is probably the best option. I also found this guide on brazing/soldering the copper to the pot. I have no experience with a soldering iron and my school has no trade class, but I have friends in my neighborhood that will be able to help me with this.

    Also, what do you mean by "stop out of the run of the tee?" What is a tee?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    "Also, what do you mean by "stop out of the run of the tee?" What is a tee? "

    OK, this thread, and this poster isn't real. I don't care what anyone else says! No high school student who has supposedly done ths kind of research and has/is pulling his/her materials list together wouldn't know what a Tee is by now.
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
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    Science Researcher said:

    Thank you Mark. Someone else had suggested copper tubing before, which is much cheaper than rubber and is probably the best option. I also found this guide on brazing/soldering the copper to the pot. I have no experience with a soldering iron and my school has no trade class, but I have friends in my neighborhood that will be able to help me with this.

    Also, what do you mean by "stop out of the run of the tee?" What is a tee?

    When you are using copper pipe the stop is the a ridge in the fitting to only let the pipe insert to a prerequisite depth. If you have friends who can help you with the brazing they will be able to show you what to do. Where are you located?
  • Kakashi
    Kakashi Member Posts: 88
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    If you don't understand steam it's best you stay away from it. Have someone with common sense who is 18+ years old with you if you attempt this. A few people have posted how to do it and if you can't grasp that then it's time to walk away from your project.
    I am not trying to be mean.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Gal-Alcohol-Water-Distiller-Moonshine-Ethanol-Copper-Still-Stainless-Boiler-/121359757258?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c419aefca
  • Science Researcher
    Science Researcher Member Posts: 17
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    Going back to the mathematics, a pressure cooker is probably far too big. I don't foresee needing more than 2 liters of steam, so 1.2 - 1.4 grams of water in a 2L aluminum kitchen pot container should do the job. This will give the 2L of steam pressurized to 1.5 atm which may be more than enough. The lid of the kitchen pot could be welded/brazed/soldered to the pot and holes drilled where necessary. The question then becomes one of heat capacity, that is, how much steam is necessary to cut the heat of the metal by a sizable amount, and how hot will the steam become during the cooling process.
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
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    Can you explain to us what the project is? There are some very great minds here willing to help but we don't know exactly what you are trying to accomplish. You said you were using it for cooling, but cooling what? What is the solenoid for? What is the microprocessor doing? Why are their two hotplates? We can help, but we need the details.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    bob said:

    Steam is not the best at moving heat it's specific heat is .48 . He doesn't mention a condenser ? I would think he would be better off using forced air (specific heat .24) to cool his pipe . Yes he would have to move twice as much air as steam but I think it would be safer and easier to handle .

    I keep coming back to this.
  • Larry_52
    Larry_52 Member Posts: 182
    edited May 2015
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    Why not use dry N2 purge for cooling. Bottle and a regulator. Or if you have an auto shop use argon/co2 from a welder. Ideally the best gas to use is H2, but that comes with a whole slew of exlosive issues.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,677
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    Jim_R said:

    You guys/gals are being so played...and it's almost humorous other that..as long you play so will they..until they get bored..

    I'd check their IP address ...could be anyone , anywhere on the planet posting..but then again I could work around that also and look like i'm in New York..

    Truth is ..YOU HAVE NO IDEA who you're really talking/posting to..could some smart **** making you look like fools...whats a tee ? LOL ..

    For those that don't get it LOOK and see what members you'd expect to reply to this thread NOT..

    That's All ..Carry On..maybe someone can post a picture of a tee or a pigtail for them or show them that page 2 usually follows page 1 ....lmfao ...JMHO...

    (who knows it's not me posting? ) Seriously

    That's facinating @Jim_R

    Can you tell all of us where you got the crystal ball from that you are able to see all of this?

    Clearly, none of us know who we're talking but you do.

    That's all .. Carry On.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    HatterasguyRobG
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    @Jim_R , I'm with you on this one!
  • Science Researcher
    Science Researcher Member Posts: 17
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    Thanks Mark. I have a strong chem background so I understand the temperature/pressure relations. My teacher and I are working on keeping the temperature constant, because we do have 2 constant heat sources in the schematic, and so far a sand bath is what we've come up with. I think a more robust cooling system will be necessary, but we're not really there yet, and the cooling materials can be easily acquired.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Mark is right. The collective body can help in a productive way once the goals, and details are put forward. Participation is always voluntary.


  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
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    @Science Researcher , the more details you can give us the better. What is the water content of the vessel what size piping and how much of it? I understand that you might not want to post your entire theory but we do need more info to help. I'm glad you didn't get scared off by the naysayers.
  • Science Researcher
    Science Researcher Member Posts: 17
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    The project is on hold for the moment, the metal guys came back to me and said the fabrication would cost several thousand dollars, as it's a custom job. We are examining funding options.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Oookayyy?.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    We'll still be here if you gather necessary funding. Persistance is a virtue.
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
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    When you say "'the metal guys" are you talking about the steam vessel or another part of the apparatus?

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