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formulas in the field

2

Comments

  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    I go to every PT night and it is a 150 mile drive for me. Parents need to be involved. My Ex wife has not gone to PT night is a few years, it is a 2 mile drive for her.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    rick in AlaskaSWEIGordy
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    I don't know what the answers are. I hope things work out for our kids and grandkids. God knows, we've left them a terrible mess. People argue that unions ruined this country, but as long as there was that guy sweeping the floor for $25/hr, we could all be certain we'd be payed a decent wage. It wasn't the unions, it was the "old money". It was the dozen, or so families that tell the governments of the world what they are going to do, or not do. They found a way to beat the unions, once and for all, and all of us are worse off for it.
    Charlie from wmassGordy
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Henry ford had the insight to pay his workers a decent wage so they could afford to buy his product.
    Charlie from wmass
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-story-of-henry-fords-5-a-day-wages-its-not-what-you-think/

    Still a smart businessman to recognize what high turnover rates do to a business. Still have companies to this day, that fail to understand the concept.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    While true I find that article a little one sided dont you Canucker? No where does it state how essentially doubling a workers pay benefits that worker, and the economy even if they had to do a few hurdles to get it. It only states how it benefited Henry Ford. Forbes Magazine hmmmm.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    Canucker........Here in the states there are now thousands of vacant manufacturing plants. They supported whole towns, with armies of workers coming and going with the changes of shifts. There are now, so few jobs that no one is leaving, because there is nowhere to go. These companies know this. They report huge earnings, and announce expansion. Then call the workers in and tell them what they're taking away from them. Race to the bottom.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    edited May 2015
    The days when the implied contract between labor and large businesses existed is gone. Management will replace people in a heartbeat if it's to their advantage - the only thing they consider is what will the numbers be at the end of the quarter. If you work for one of these big companies you do so at their mercy

    Your better off working for a small company. I started as a technician and worked my way up through engineering into management for a company that employed a little more than a hundred folks. Even then you have to watch out when the place gets taken over by new management.

    The company folded 28 years after I started there when new owners took over who wanted to make the place the next General Electric - the place was shuttered when the new "plan' didnt work out as planned. Not to worry the new folks managed to fleece almost a million dollars out of the state and feds for "preserving" jobs. They then tried the same shill game down in Pa. but some of the old creditors found them and closed it down. That forced another 80 folks out onto the streets.

    Last I heard these folks were trying the same game out on the west coast. An MBA is the gift that just never stops giving - or maybe I should have said taking.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    Canucker
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
    @Gordy :Not disagreeing, it is a little one sided, just wanted to point out that Henry Ford wasn't doubling the wage(as you noticed, with restrictions) so his employees could buy his product, it was the long term outlook of spending a little now(higher wages) to retain trained employees so production/quality wouldn't suffer from constant turnover, thus increasing his profit. That's pretty forward looking, even these days

    @Paul48 Definitely know where you're coming from, I work in an industry that is very susceptible to jobs going overseas in the name of "competition". The only reason I still have a job here is because no one can do what we do, as well as we do it. Part of that reason is training of the employees, something I try to push on my shift. Hopefully quality will always be the goal, because the minute standards are allowed to drop, my job will be gone too. The city I live in dealt with the gutting of the manufacturing sector all through the 80's/90's. Just starting to recover in the last 10 yrs or so, but from my vantage point, the well paying jobs that were lost, never came back.

    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    When doing screw pipe, I always use 1.41. If I have to roll 45 or 22.5 offsets I look up that formula (can't memorize all.that crap). In an average PVC or no hub bathroom rough...I'm a cheatin'! On commercial work and anything above 2" I'm doing my math. The more you do it, the better you retain it. A few years ago, I had to 45 offset, 9 - 2" no hub vents on an overhead rack. I wanted it to all look equi-distant, and I just figured it out instinctively. It came out nice. Last year I took a class with and they gave us THAT formula too. Ahh! It woulda been nice to have that when I needed it. Now I do. Mad Dog
  • Jack
    Jack Member Posts: 1,047
    I started working with piping in about '67 and started my apprenticeship in the UA in '70. I had a chance to work with the Deadmen that we talk about, and I've seen some really neat things. I am still amazed at the very idea that Blackie was able to make that 55' rolling offset with 6" pipe and the fit-up on each end was...PERFECT. There was a fellow named George Cunningham. He was a crusty old timer when I started, but the journeyman I was working with pulled me aside and said, "watch this" George was working on a lay-out of a rack of 45* offsets. He swept the floor, actually he allowed me to sweep the floor, and with a plumb-bob, string line, and tape laid it all out on the floor, cut it and it too was perfect. I haven't worked with the tools in a long time, and have to really pay attention on offsets when I get the chance. Show me a trig table today and I'm, unfortunately, heading the other way. My UA training was so poor I thought my head was going to explode. What I learned, I learned on the job. Being in a small joint local I got into the welding classes as soon as I could. After all, you can only read the plumbing code book so many times on Tues & Thurs nights. I guess my point is, even today, you build journeymen on the job. Yes you need a kid willing to learn. From there it takes a journeyman willing to teach and able to have the time to do so.
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    edited May 2015
    Paul48 said:

    Hat....If you want to talk about the race to the bottom....Look at the educational system in the U.S.

    And the financial and government systems!
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Is anyone still using a wood plumbers rule?
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    I am
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    RobGRobert O'Connor_12Zman
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    I have my uncles old Lufkin X46 rule that has a 5" brass extension in the first section.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    KC_Jones
  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    I wonder how many plumbers know what a plumbers rule is ?
    bob
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    Better yet...How many would know how to use it properly?
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    edited May 2015
    It begins at home with the parents. Too many parents expect schools and teachers to work miracles with their kids while the parents don't hold them accountable at home.

    When I was a kid, we couldn't go outside after school until our homework was done and checked. Same thing applied to my daughters when they were young. The other thing we did was started buying the girls books at a very early age and we never stopped buying them books so long as they read them. And they did because they enjoyed it. It was fun for them to go to Barnes & Noble or the library and get more.

    With that said, there isn't nearly enough money being directed toward education...especially in lower income areas. The Chicago Public School systems are still using 25 year old text books as I understand it while affluent suburbs supply state of the art computers for students and we wonder why things are the way they are.

    Give kids responsibility at an early age and hold them accountable and they won't grow up thinking they're entitled.
    Steve Minnich
    BobC
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    I tell my boys I am their father not their friend. I also expect them to hate me on occasion or I am not being a good parent.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    RobGKC_JonesZman
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    Charlie ... I like to be both but I have no problem playing the "bad" guy.
    Steve Minnich
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    When I started out as a helper my boss always wore a welders cap with a carpenters pencil tucked in it and a plumbers rule in his back pocket. He never wrote on paper, there was always a scrap of wood or a piece of drywall around. (I'm sure he did) But I don't remember him ever getting an angle wrong, if it was wrong I'm sure it was because I cut it wrong. I thought he was a God. He is what made me what I am today and I thank him for It.
    TinmanCharlie from wmassjonny88Gordy
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
    That stuff can't be overrated. Hopefully you will be able to pass that on as well
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    j a said:

    That stuff can't be overrated. Hopefully you will be able to pass that on as well

    The trouble is finding kids to pass it on to! The only kids I ever find anymore are only working because their parents finally kicked them out of the basement. Their only interest is the paycheck, not the trade. I used to anticipate what my boss would need next so that all he had to do was hold his hand out behind him and the tool would appear in his hand. I can't get kids nowadays to take their eyes off their phones long enough to learn anything.
    Gordy
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
    No phones for helpers.
    SWEIRobGjonny88
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    j a said:

    No phones for helpers.

    There's always an excuse, girlfriend pregnant, mom sick, grandma on her deathbed, ect... Then when you try and take their phone they quit and move back into their parents basement. I prefer to work with adults. There are still a few around (most of them over forty).
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
    It does sux because young men just don't seem to have the passion... They have been poorly guided.
    RobG
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    Had a guy or two when I was crew leader that couldn't put down the phone. I started keeping track of the time they spent doing that and deducted it from their time sheet. That took care of that problem in short order.

    Don't know how well that would be looked upon by the powers that be, in today's world?
    GordyRobG
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited May 2015
    Steven Hawkins made a considered bold statement not so long ago that the human race will be slaves to artificial intelligence in the next 100 years. I dont think that statement was bold, and I think its already happening.


    I find the cell phone on the job is a distraction, and thus a saftey hazard. That sticks.

    I describe the kids who are really considered to be adults today as baby birds waiting for the next worm to drop in their mouth.
    Harvey Ramerjonny88RobG
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    If by slaves, he meant that we couldn't do without, I would heartily agree.

    This is my personal opinion of what is occurring now and will continue in the future. Currently, the generation most populous on this wall, holds in their head a wealth of knowledge and formulas and a whole bunch of common sense to boot. In their eyes the younger generation looks like a failing grade. One has to realize though, the knowledge (not the common sense) and formulas have been logged into artificial intelligence already. In the future and to some degree currently, everything will be about knowing how to access the proper information at a moments notice. If someone is adept at this, it cannot really be said that they are not smart, if you will, because they can have the answer to nearly any question at a moments notice from literally anywhere in the world. This will free up more brain capacity for other things. Some will fill it up with gaming and TV rubbish, some won't.

    I cannot see that human intelligence as a whole, will ever get less.

    So anyway, that's how I see it.
    Canucker
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239

    One has to realize though, the knowledge (not the common sense) and formulas have been logged into artificial intelligence already. In the future and to some degree currently, everything will be about knowing how to access the proper information at a moments notice. If someone is adept at this, it cannot really be said that they are not smart, if you will, because they can have the answer to nearly any question at a moments notice from literally anywhere in the world. This will free up more brain capacity for other things. Some will fill it up with gaming and TV rubbish, some won't.

    They most certainly can access all kinds of information..........and do it much faster and more efficiently than we can.

    Let's say that they have obtained every last tidbit necessary to build a steam system with a new boiler and all new near boiler piping.

    Now, after they have that, the rubber has to meet the road. They have no understanding of the time and effort necessary to achieve a functional mechanical solution and they most certainly have no desire to actually perform that task. That's real work............they prefer the keyboard............and let others do the heavy lifting.
    There is that too. Some can read and apply, some can't.
    Canucker
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    That's what will make our method of making a living increasingly more valuable. It will do so until a balance is reached between the profits that can be earned and the next generation's willingness to do manual labor.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    By the way, I am of the younger generation and I know quite a few others of like mind, in the trades and doing their own bit.

    All is not lost.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    If history were to present itself, I could see the dead men saying the same thing.
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    Hatt you are spot on in my opinion.I went to a multi million dollar house the other night for whatever reason builder put in a combi,Baxi which is a very well made product.& years the boiler has never been looked at.No primary loop etc just a complete shitshow.Anyhow homeowne gets home complaining about this piece of junk on the wall.I ask him how many times he services his luxury car in driveway per year to which he replies at least once.I tell him his boiler did great,to be ignored for 7 years wrongly piped but he got a great price.Even on the high end market it comes to nickles and dimes.I have not heard from him and figure he will get another great offer.
    Take care.
    RobGSWEI
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    I love that Race to the Bottom.My wife is a frustrated teacher .She has to teach kids how to pass an exam that is the extent of it for get about teaching a cirriculum she would like to.Test scores show how a school is doing.Good results good school.Wait till these kids go to university.Teachers are evaluated on scores and it all comes down to politics from superintendent to principal and so forth.
    Her best students are Asian,Indian and ESL students who actually want to learn.
    Throwaway society hits it on the head.Could not agree more,we all have our stories but very sad for the future.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    I guess at the end of the day, the world for each of us, is what we perceive it to be.
    Canucker
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    edited May 2015
    Have you noticed how on job sites the majority of workers were not born in America? Parents say they want their kids to work, and then they support them through the six years college it takes them so that they don't have work as a lowly tradesman.

    I'm done bashing kids. It's gonna be what it's gonna be.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    @Harvey this is the way I see it, and what scares me for up coming generations that become enslaved to the digital evolution.

    That is being able to function with digital disruption. I'm not talking a period of hours, or days, but weeks, months...or longer. We embrace the wealth of information at the stroke of a key board, or the convenience, and speed of emails, the conveniences the cell phone gives us to communicate all most anywhere at any time.

    The populous that has transitioned to the digital age,from analog still remember how to do things in the analog fashion. When the up coming generations become truly digital with no recollection of functioning in an analog society things could get ugly.

    I marvel at the leaps and bounds technology made in the 19th, and 20th centuries the people that lived in those eras long enough to witness the transitions to electricity, telephone, radio,television,automobile, aviation,man in space etc.

    Now it's digital leaps, and bounds which to me is starting to get a bit stale.
    RobG
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    There are exceptions.

    I hired my son-in-law, Tim, 5 months ago after going through a few of the type of young people described above.

    I laid down the ground rules early:

    No phone unless you're on break.

    Don't be late means you show up early every day.

    Suit up, show up. Every day.

    Attitude, Commitment, and Energy (ACE) mean every thing to me and that's my expectation.

    Tim has gone above and beyond my expectations and this is a guy who barely picked up tool before he started. Zero experience. Stole him from the corporate world where he was bored and unfulfilled.

    But I knew he was smart and teachable. I'm sure it didn't hurt for my daughter to be sharing with him how I won't tolerate not staying on the straight and narrow. : ) Tim already knows more about Hydronics than most forced air contractors ever will. He's always engaged and anticipating.

    I'm lucky to have him.
    Steve Minnich
    Harvey RamerRobGSWEIZman
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850

    There are exceptions.

    I hired my son-in-law, Tim, 5 months ago after going through a few of the type of young people described above.

    I laid down the ground rules early:

    No phone unless you're on break.

    Don't be late means you show up early every day.

    Suit up, show up. Every day.

    Attitude, Commitment, and Energy (ACE) mean every thing to me and that's my expectation.

    Tim has gone above and beyond my expectations and this is a guy who barely picked up tool before he started. Zero experience. Stole him from the corporate world where he was bored and unfulfilled.

    But I knew he was smart and teachable. I'm sure it didn't hurt for my daughter to be sharing with him how I won't tolerate not staying on the straight and narrow. : ) Tim already knows more about Hydronics than most forced air contractors ever will. He's always engaged and anticipating.

    I'm lucky to have him.

    They are few and far between, good for you!
    Tinman
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    @Gordy
    I hear what you are saying and your concerns are well warranted. Humanity is quite fragile, and we continue to place our fortunes in the functionality of the devices we create. We are, by the way, well past the point of no return. One good solar flare/EMF wave, to wipe out the grid, and millions would die within months. It will be the same with computers and the digital age.

    The same thing is taking place in the world of agriculture and DNA resequencing. Through the genetic modifications in our crop seed, we have been able to increase the crop yields per acre exponentially and feed the hungry mouths of an ever increasing populous. If we chose at this point to switch back to strictly organic, millions would have to die of starvation.

    In a way it is truly marvelous what humanity has accomplished. On the other hand, if one realizes how crucial our creations are to our current way of life, or the fact that if one element is removed, many people must die. That is the scary part.