New steam for small home?

JStar

ChrisJ said:

gerry gill said:

Igor is a great guy, i met him in Chicago once at a steamjunkie meeting..he has some cool ideas..i prefer to use flare fittings, although the original systems were soldered back in the 50's & 60's.

If I had money, and time, and another house,
I'd like to make a hermetically sealed steam system that runs at around 140F. I think it would work beautifully but have no way to prove it. All connections would be silver soldered of course.

Pull a deep vacuum, fill with water and then whatever amount of nitrogen you need to bring up to the right level of vacuum.

No rust, no vents, no problems. No moving parts at all.

The only problem would be establishing a pressure difference to make the steam move. You would need a gas pump to push or vacuum pump to pull.

ChrisJ

JStar said:

ChrisJ said:

gerry gill said:

Igor is a great guy, i met him in Chicago once at a steamjunkie meeting..he has some cool ideas..i prefer to use flare fittings, although the original systems were soldered back in the 50's & 60's.

If I had money, and time, and another house,
I'd like to make a hermetically sealed steam system that runs at around 140F. I think it would work beautifully but have no way to prove it. All connections would be silver soldered of course.

Pull a deep vacuum, fill with water and then whatever amount of nitrogen you need to bring up to the right level of vacuum.

No rust, no vents, no problems. No moving parts at all.

The only problem would be establishing a pressure difference to make the steam move. You would need a gas pump to push or vacuum pump to pull.

The pressure differential would be created by the heat. The radiators are all cold and therefore have a lower pressure than the boiler.

It should, work identical to a heat pipe. I just don't know if it would go to all of the radiators, or choose one.


Heat pipe article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

ttekushan_3

I agree with @ChrisJ that the heat will make the steam move. Expanding steam will still increase the pressure on the supply side even at subatmospheric pressures. Once steam commences to condense at the radiator the delta P will be greater still.
As long as there's separate supply and return and no non-condensibles in the way, it should work swimmingly.

JStar

Interesting idea. Forgot about that boiler-makes-heat part!

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

I'd love to try that on a complete system. But, the work necessary to ensure no vacuum leaks is significant Every threaded joint would be a potential culprit unless you welded it.

Every valve is a problem, by definition.

Threaded joint?
I said silver soldered! Get your nasty questionable threads out of my design. Thread the nipples into the boiler and solder them. Then go from that to a brass nipple like Gerry Gill did and then to copper.

Sure, its a lot of work and you'll probably spend a small fortune on brazing rods, but I bet the system would last a long long long long time including the boiler. You don't even have to use water, pick something else. Fill the system with pressure using nitrogen and then use some refrigerant that you can get to boil at the temperature you want.

What about steam radiant? 80F boiling point?

ttekushan_3

@ChrisJ, do you think the noncondensible nitrogen would cause vapor propagation problems? I'm thinking so. Howzabout a big expansion tank at the end of the return, hooked up backwards with a partial nitrogen charge and then the end capped. The nitrogen would still be the only agent of expansion but would be sequestered by the diaphragm. That way the working fluid and its vapor would be the only thing in the system. Just a thought.

jumper

I don't understand the nitrogen part? In process work we're always trying to eliminate non-condensibles.

For circulation I've seen domestic hot water pre-heater to be the condenser for steam heating. You need a big B dimension.

Sealing against air is much easier than sealing freon in. And it's no big deal to periodically expel non-condensible gas mechanically.

j a_2

Do yourself a huge favor…Stick with a conventional system…Be it steam, or hot water…Me I love steam..Have done several complete rip outs and replaced with all new steam system..Just never posted much about it…Steam is very common here in the Boston area…Good luck

bob_46

How about a steam fired Crosley Icy Ball refrigerator. I would have suggested a Servel but they are too modern .

RobG

I guess the main question is what are you intending to do? We are all giving opinions without knowing all the details. Is it a full renovation of the home or just additions? What are YOUR wishes for the system? Does the old steam system work correctly? What is the EDR of the rads? What size is the boiler? There are allot of questions that need answered before recommendations can be made.

vaporvac

These were the details he posted in the first page: House details:
Current heat -DMO oil hot air furnace, electric DHW.
Small cape, 884 sq ft, full basement. 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, open kitchen / living room area.

So he's really starting from scratch. It sounds like it's one floor with good access from the basement.

RobG

vaporvac said:

These were the details he posted in the first page: House details:
Current heat -DMO oil hot air furnace, electric DHW.
Small cape, 884 sq ft, full basement. 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, open kitchen / living room area.

So he's really starting from scratch. It sounds like it's one floor with good access from the basement.

Thanks, I have a bad habit of not going back and re-reading posts.

smp74

That's right. Pretty much a clean slate. Existing system will be ripped out entirely including the old side-draw tank. Electric water heater bye bye.

Basement is wide open. No walls. There is a beam and 3 columns that runs lengthwise. I'll see if I have any pictures from when I viewed it.

The "vision" of sorts that I have had for a while is what I think is called a one pipe counterflow system. Where the one pipe pitches toward the boiler and is also the return.

Boiler looks like the smallest Burnham MST288 could possibly work, maybe down fired slightly. I would plan to use a tankless coil for the DHW.

For radiators I like the look and feel of the "slenderized" 4 column units. The bathroom may require some creativity locating a radiator in there. Kitchen / living room is open and plenty of room to work with.

Some of the fun with this is going to be sourcing the radiators. If I can find some old units to refinish that could potentially save quite a bit that could be put to other parts. At this time I have no idea on how to go about sizing the radiation for the different rooms. If I'm going to go with refurbishing some older rads I'd like to possibly get that project underway ahead of time. Any advice on sizing the radiators?

smp74

Another aspect of this that is rather important is whether or not this project or any part of it qualifies for the MassSave HEAT loan program. I'm reading through that stuff now and it's a bit confusing on what is and is not qualified when you're switching systems entirely.

Does anyone know if this project qualifies? The boiler mentioned above is listed as having 86% AFUE, hopefully that helps.

j a_2

I will try to copy and post of a chart as to how to size for steam…seriously its very basic and simple…There are many many radiators for steam out here…Stay away from the so called new ones by a local company here in the Boston area…They are not even close to the quality of the older ones….

Charlie from wmass

Simple is best. An indirect water heater would be best for hot water as a tankless that small will have issues Keeping up with demand.

RobG

Keep an eye on Cragslist for rads.

Fred

Also look at the "Buy, Sell, Barter" tab on this site. Sometimes there are steam rads on there for free.

RobG

Fred said:

Also look at the "Buy, Sell, Barter" tab on this site. Sometimes there are steam rads on there for free.

With Craigslist you can search locally, CI rads are expensive to ship.

ChrisJ

I think Charlies Garrity said he has radiators that will work for this.

Charlie from wmass

I have a few houses worth of radiation. When the heat loss is done I will know what would work.