New steam for small home?

smp74

Hi all,

I've been away from here for many years. Some new opportunities have brought me back.

I am purchasing a home shortly and I would like to get some advice on the feasibility of a new steam system. I have always liked the design and the feel of steam radiation and now is an opportunity to have that for myself.

House details:
Current heat -DMO oil hot air furnace, electric DHW.
Small cape, 884 sq ft, full basement. 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, open kitchen / living room area.

Would it be possible to heat this size home with a new steam system? I figured I'd start with that question and go from there.

Cheers and thanks for your help.

Sean

ChrisJ

I think it's an awesome idea.

A Burnham IN3 or similar would likely do very nicely. 51,000 btu output with good, well insulated piping would work beautifully. If you're using oil I'm sure you can get an oil setup to produce similar results.

Have you done a heatloss on the building yet? You'll need that to size your radiation.

Steamhead

Especially in an existing small house, a mini-tube steam system is a good way to go. Thanks, Gerry Gill:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/131555/new-steam-mini-tube-system-installed-in-my-own-house-iron-fireman-style/p1

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/151994/new-steam-mini-tube-installation-in-ohio/p1

Where are you located?

smp74

Thanks so much for the info. I'll read through it as soon as I get a chance.

Oops, I forgot to add the location. The home is in southeastern MA. (near New Bedford)

ChrisJ

smp74 said:

Thanks so much for the info. I'll read through it as soon as I get a chance.

Oops, I forgot to add the location. The home is in southeastern MA. (near New Bedford)

Do you have anyone in mind to do the work?

smp74

Nobody in mind yet for a contractor.

ChrisJ

smp74 said:

Nobody in mind yet for a contractor.

Only one in Mass that I can think of right now would be Charles Garrity. He's on the forum and may respond.

He does good work, but I'm not sure how far he is from you or if He'd be interested in a new install.

smp74

It looks like Garrity is quite a distance from my location. 165 miles according to google maps. I made a few calls and came up with Sojka's out of Acushnet MA. Apparently they do steam. I've had a good experience with them in the past on hot water systems.

In any case, the entire current system will be totally ripped out so there will be a clean slate for a new install.

I'm glad to hear that this combination of a smaller home and steam heat isn't a no-fly zone.

RobG

I know that this going to upset some folks but if you don't have a steam pro near you, you may just want to look into hot water heat. It can be done with copper or PEX and will have a much lesser up front cost. (sorry Steamhead)

ChrisJ

RobG said:

I know that this going to upset some folks but if you don't have a steam pro near you, you may just want to look into hot water heat. It can be done with copper or PEX and will have a much lesser up front cost. (sorry Steamhead)

Minitube steam is done mostly in copper.


Sorry RobG.

RobG

ChrisJ said:

RobG said:

I know that this going to upset some folks but if you don't have a steam pro near you, you may just want to look into hot water heat. It can be done with copper or PEX and will have a much lesser up front cost. (sorry Steamhead)

Minitube steam is done mostly in copper.


Sorry RobG.

How many people do you know who have installed, or even understand a mini-tube system.

ChrisJ

RobG said:

ChrisJ said:

RobG said:

I know that this going to upset some folks but if you don't have a steam pro near you, you may just want to look into hot water heat. It can be done with copper or PEX and will have a much lesser up front cost. (sorry Steamhead)

Minitube steam is done mostly in copper.


Sorry RobG.

How many people do you know who have installed, or even understand a mini-tube system.

One, Gerry Gill.
But I bet Charles can handle it no problem.

Fact is, I don't trust most guys that claim they know steam, most don't and it seems like the ones that do are all on this site.

smp74

The installer's experience with steam is the biggest concern that I have. Not sure how I am going to go about gauging that. Maybe I will call Garrity and see if he is willing to travel.

ChrisJ

smp74 said:

The installer's experience with steam is the biggest concern that I have. Not sure how I am going to go about gauging that. Maybe I will call Garrity and see if he is willing to travel.

Please call him, it could save you a whole lot of trouble if he is willing to travel.

Charlie from wmass

Call me 413-841-6726 I go to Provicetown to NY . 165 miles sounds like you are outside of Massachusetts.

ttekushan_3

I strongly concur with others that minitube for steam is the way to go. But make sure you don't oversize the radiators. Cast iron radiators work exceptionally well with a minitube arrangement.

I did some btu/square foot/heating degree day calculations on Gerry's house and they are quite good, especially since Gerry keeps their house at 78 degrees and there's no insulation. Amazingly, it's about half of what it was with the old '60's era forced air furnace.

I'm going to catch up with Gerry regarding the new minitube installation they did last summer. I'm hoping the owners can produce previous years' and this season's gas bills so I can do the net heating gas use per square foot/HDD. 100K btu F.A. (complete with cold 70 and rooms that wouldn't heat) conversion to balmy steam 100K btu.

You will not be disappointed with a minitube steam heating system in any aspect of its performance.

gerry gill

You would be crazy not to put steam in. Whether it's mini tube or conventional you will love it.

Recently had a person in Illinois thinking about putting mini tube steam in his house, and he had only steam only radiators. The
original style with no upper nipple port. So I did an experiment
at my house on my system by taking out a copper convector in
my bedroom and installing a steam only radiator in what was
to be a temporary position just to see how a steam only radiator
would heat on a mini tube system. OMG, it worked so well the copper convector is in the scrapyard, and I just left the steam
only radiator there after the experiment.

Put the steam in!

ChrisJ

I really need to get a FLIR.

Posts are much more impressive when you can show actual results.

Gerry, how did you size your boiler? Did you match it to your radiation, or oversize it which is commonly done on older systems?

Charlie from wmass

Now that opens up a lot of opportunities as Steam only radiators I have a couple houses worth.

ChrisJ

There you have it.

smp74

I had a very informative conversation with Charlie this afternoon. I am really looking forward to working with him once all the purchase and closing stuff is completed in a few weeks.

Thanks for the references. I will definitely keep in contact with this forum as things progress.

gerry gill

ChrisJ said:

Gerry, how did you size your boiler? Did you match it to your radiation, or oversize it which is commonly done on older systems?

Its actually sized to the heat loss like one would do with hot water..thats what the manual says to do..but with iron rads i would add a little..the original design was for turbines.

gerry gill

Charlie from wmass said:

Now that opens up a lot of opportunities as Steam only radiators I have a couple houses worth.

yeah, its hard to find homes for original style rads.

ChrisJ said:

There you have it.

now thats funny, i dont care who you are

Charlie from wmass

now to invent a vacuum pump for the mini split.

jonny88

I tell you this is why I come here.Every day is a school day.Looked at a thread posted by Steamhead that showed a job done by gerry gill showing a minitube installation.Very humbling and makes you want to learn so much more.Thanks for sharing guys.

ChrisJ

I'm not sure if these are in the threads Steamhead posted, but here are direct links to two of Gerry's mini-tube videos.


https://youtu.be/U_wLnyul-S0


https://youtu.be/d6BHXov_BW0

RobG

No insult intended, but I would do hot water. OAR and modulation seem like the way to go IMHO.

Charlie from wmass

He wants a system that is not as prone to freezing during a power outage.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

He wants a system that is not as prone to freezing during a power outage.

Not to mention pump failures, expansion tank failures, possibility of doing serious flood damage, having to bleed it anytime you work on it etc.

RobG

ChrisJ said:

Charlie from wmass said:

He wants a system that is not as prone to freezing during a power outage.

Not to mention pump failures, expansion tank failures, possibility of doing serious flood damage, having to bleed it anytime you work on it etc.

It is a pointless argument Chris. There are pros and cons to both systems. I am just voicing my opinion. We could argue about this for days and neither of us would win.

ChrisJ

RobG said:

ChrisJ said:

Charlie from wmass said:

He wants a system that is not as prone to freezing during a power outage.

Not to mention pump failures, expansion tank failures, possibility of doing serious flood damage, having to bleed it anytime you work on it etc.

It is a pointless argument Chris. There are pros and cons to both systems. I am just voicing my opinion. We could argue about this for days and neither of us would win.

Agreed on all points.
I was voicing mine as well, not trying to argue.

jumper

What kind of system do you have in mind? I'd look at the article on this site by Igor Zhadanovsky. He advocates using flexible preinsulated tubing instead of threaded pipe. The latter is nineteenth century technology. With flexible tubing it's much easier to build proper run outs.

I've been meaning to ask here the following. Do steam heated homes in general have compliant swing joint run outs?

jumper

Check out the article on this site by Igor Zhadanovsky. Preinsulated flexible tubing is easier and will work better.

jumper

Read the article by Igor Zhadanovsky on this site for some ideas.

Question for Mr. Gill. What sort of connections are on the copper parts?

jumper

See the article by Igor Zhadanovsky on this site for some ideas for modern steam heating.

Question for Mr.Gill. What sort of connections are on the copper parts of your mintube?

jumper

See article by Igor Zhadanovsky for ideas about modern steam heating.
Question for Mr.Gill. What sort of connections do you use on copper parts?

jumper

I suggest the article here by Igor Zhadanovsky or ideas about modern steam heat. Question or Mr.Gill. What sort of connections do you use on copper parts of steam systems?

Fred

OMG @jumper , we understand you point about reading Igor and your question to Mr. Gill (clearly something has gone awrye with your postings)

gerry gill

Igor is a great guy, i met him in Chicago once at a steamjunkie meeting..he has some cool ideas..i prefer to use flare fittings, although the original systems were soldered back in the 50's & 60's.

ChrisJ

gerry gill said:

Igor is a great guy, i met him in Chicago once at a steamjunkie meeting..he has some cool ideas..i prefer to use flare fittings, although the original systems were soldered back in the 50's & 60's.

If I had money, and time, and another house,
I'd like to make a hermetically sealed steam system that runs at around 140F. I think it would work beautifully but have no way to prove it. All connections would be silver soldered of course.

Pull a deep vacuum, fill with water and then whatever amount of nitrogen you need to bring up to the right level of vacuum.

No rust, no vents, no problems. No moving parts at all.

jumper

Sorry about repeating. My posts didn't register??