Undersized Boiler/Hammer/Boiler Replacement Questions – One-pipe Steam

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

Do you have king valves? Maybe that is my trick. I install them and return valves , run the boiler to 10 psi, and blow it down.

Have you even looked at a picture of my work? Jeez.

Here's an old one before I got rid of the pigtail for my low psi gauges and insulated everything and converted it from an EG-45 to an EG-40.

Charlie from wmass

I'm wondering if there is something under the insulation at the header we can't see, like a horizontal diameter reduction or water pocket due to bad pitch.

Fred

Charlie from wmass said:

I'm wondering if there is something under the insulation at the header we can't see, like a horizontal diameter reduction or water pocket due to bad pitch.

There is an area on that 6 ft. runout from the Header (if you look at his initial pictures, it's right where that 45 is located that ties into that Bull Tee) that he says he believes is pitched in the wrong direction. That's where he hears the hammer and I have advised him he needs to correct that. He does not want to do that work right now because of cost so he is working on the water level issue first.

Charlie from wmass

No need for low volume. As you release the pressure it turns to steam. I usually tend to have the water level high. I also open the return valve and back flush the wet return.

Charlie from wmass

Then he is working on the wrong thing Fred.

Fred

Charlie from wmass said:

Then he is working on the wrong thing Fred.

I know but if he can address his low water problem he may believe we know what we are talking about and he may do something about that pipe before next heating season. One step at a time.

KevinK

Fred said:

Charlie from wmass said:

Then he is working on the wrong thing Fred.

I know but if he can address his low water problem he may believe we know what we are talking about and he may do something about that pipe before next heating season.

One step at a time.

Response to Charlie (and Fred): To clarify: the issue is not about belief, you guys are great. The issue is about difficulty, expense, and, as Fred notes, about "one step at a time." Am I incorrect in believing that revising 90 year old 4-inch and 2-inch iron piping is a major and expensive operation? And bear in mind, Charlie, the boiler and "vicinity" cleaning clearly needs to be performed in any event.

Now, back to the near-boiler issues: gotta go to Harbor Freight and buy 24" and 36" pipe wrenches. My 12" and 14" wrenches are not cutting it. Even with cheater bars.

Charlie from wmass

The pocket in the supply looks like you just need to reduce the height of the riser from the header.

KevinK

Charlie from wmass said:

The pocket in the supply looks like you just need to reduce the height of the riser from the header.

Response:
1. Thanks for the clarification;
2. Remember, when you say "just need to ... " you are talking to a lay person. No matter how simple in concept (or to a person with tools/experience) "accessing"/shortening/reconnecting a length of 4" iron pipe (or, an alternative approach) seems to me like a major operation.
3. In addition, keep in mind that others had suggested removing the bull tee at the connection to the main. So I was acknowledging this reco as well.

Fred

If you are going to break that piping loose to get rid of that low spot, you are right to get that Bull Tee out at the same time. It may be a job for a Pro as it will take some large wrenches, changing some of the Header to allow for each Main to be tied into it individually and quite possibly some pipe threading as you don't have the luxury of moving anything to adjust for standard, off the shelf fittings. It's not going to cost a fortune but there will be some work there. If you believe that Bull Tee is original to the house and it hasn't been a problem, having someone add a drip leg at that low spot and dropping it to a wet return is still an option that will get rid of the Hammer and will work fine, at probably a lot less cost, until the next time the boiler has to be replaced, then you can deal with the Bull Tee at that time.

KevinK

Response to Fred: Thanks for the reminder. W/ all I have been working on, I forgot that you had previously mentioned this approach as an alt.

Don_197

Kevin.............while at Harbor Freight.......check out their electric impact wrench......I think its like 30 bucks..............I use mine all the time 8-)

Jamie Hall

A minor thought on cleaning wet returns -- should they need it. If it is possible to run the water from the end of the return towards an outlet at the boiler it's going to be far more effective rather than simply filling the boiler (and returns) and emptying...

Often much more easily said than done.

KevinK

Don said:

Kevin.............while at Harbor Freight.......check out their electric impact wrench......I think its like 30 bucks..............I use mine all the time 8-)

Response to Don (and others): I gave up on the impact wrench because the "nut" on my skim plug requires a 1-3/4" socket. I have not been able to locate a socket that big (nix the big box stores, H.Freight, Sears, auto parts stores. ... I'm pretty sure I even struck out at Graingers). Any thoughts?

BobC

If a 6 point will work try this -

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200639490_200639490

KevinK

Jamie Hall said:

A minor thought on cleaning wet returns -- should they need it. If it is possible to run the water from the end of the return towards an outlet at the boiler it's going to be far more effective rather than simply filling the boiler (and returns) and emptying...

Often much more easily said than done.

Response: For once I'm ahead of someone. ... When I had the work done in Sept '14, I had the contractor add a 3-way valve on each CR drop and shut offs on each CR leg just upstream of the CR tee. So I can isolate each CR leg and run water through each leg using a garden hose.

KevinK

BobC said:

If a 6 point will work try this -

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200639490_200639490

I definitely need some input on this. I have no working knowledge re impact wrenches. And limited knowledge re sockets other than how to pick them out of my socket sets.
1. The nut is square (1-1/4" on each side). I assumed that I would need a ~ 12-point socket?? And I assumed that the socket size would be determined by the largest (ie, diagonal) measurement?? I can tell you for sure that a 12-point 1-1/4" socket (largest I could locate) is way too small.
2. Can a cheapo version of impact wrench accommodate a 3/4" drive??

Fred

That's a 2" Tee with a plug in it. Go to home Depot and buy a 2" plug with a square head on it (you mayneed it when you get this one out anyway). They have a tool rental right there in the store (at least te ones here do). Tell them you need to rent an impact wrench and socket that fits the head on the plug you bought (it should match the one on your skim port). If they don't have an impact wrench to rent, take the plug to a tool rental and get one. At least you won't be guessing about size socket you need.

KevinK

Response to Fred: Thanks. Unfortunately, my Home Depot rents neither impact wrenches nor sockets. ... However, ... see my to-follow post.

Paul48

You need 8-point. McMaster-Carr has them. I'd call them, just to verify sizing though. Three quarter inch impact wrench won't be cheap, but you can get 1/2" drive and use an adapter. McMaster #'s 5549A161, 5549A169....you need both.

KevinK

Hold the Presses, vers 2

I need to verify the following w/ further testing tomorrow, etc; however, I just had a cold-start, 35 min boiler run w/ minimal water level variation and w/ absolutely zero hammer.

Here’s the short version. This afternoon, I did some “limited-access” but still significant cleaning of the near-boiler condensate return piping and the boiler water tank. Summary results are as follows:
1. It appears that the near-boiler CR piping was not clogged;
2. The boiler water did not appear to be particularly nasty; however,
3. I refilled the boiler; relit the pilot. An hour later, I ran the boiler and had the results noted above.

If the initial results hold, then it would appear that the “we think the problem is boiler water quality” camp wins out (at least as a/the main issue).

I will provide more detail, if and when it becomes clear that a firm conclusion is warranted.

KevinK

Brief Update

Status: I was able to remove the skim port plug yesterday. I will update further after cleaning, reassembly, testing.

Fred

Great News! Persistence wins out again!

j a_2

When I was doing a lot of steam boiler installs I had all the common size lengths of pipe and a pretty good amount of nipples all precut in my shop. I had a 55 gallon drum of pure MEK.and cleaned them all. I even had most of them wickened... Ready to go...I always found skimming to be based on individual basis... Some a lot some a little....skim ports are important and should be used...Hot skim,warm skim,cool skim, whatever worked. Was what I did....Truly don't like so called auto feeds... Used only on occasions... Gave owners specific instructions and warnings about the use and trust in them,...Don't be going on a winter trip to Florida putting your trust in them....they can cause in some cases under fill,over fill, flooding. All not good....If you do use one at min. Install one with a meter...vtx for one type....Some boilers are 24 volt some 120 volt... Anyways Mr O P good luck with Mr. Installer...Is he a full fledged steam guy or a wannabe. Stealing your monies
.

j a_2

Had a nosey H O bird dogging me one day, really bad...to boot asking question after question, then argued my answers... I was doing a boiler repair of sorts...I pumped the boiler down did my thing and repumped the boiler water back in...He thought I was a nut....I thought he was a nut... Funny thing is the nut called back for more and more plumbing work...Priced it accordingly.

ChrisJ

j a said:

When I was doing a lot of steam boiler installs I had all the common size lengths of pipe and a pretty good amount of nipples all precut in my shop. I had a 55 gallon drum of pure MEK.and cleaned them all. I even had most of them wickened... Ready to go...I always found skimming to be based on individual basis... Some a lot some a little....skim ports are important and should be used...Hot skim,warm skim,cool skim, whatever worked. Was what I did....Truly don't like so called auto feeds... Used only on occasions... Gave owners specific instructions and warnings about the use and trust in them,...Don't be going on a winter trip to Florida putting your trust in them....they can cause in some cases under fill,over fill, flooding. All not good....If you do use one at min. Install one with a meter...vtx for one type....Some boilers are 24 volt some 120 volt... Anyways Mr O P good luck with Mr. Installer...Is he a full fledged steam guy or a wannabe. Stealing your monies

.

Wicked?
Didn't realize you were that old.

KevinK

Update: SUCCESS!

Short Version

Wow. And thanks to all. You guys are great! The problem, at least the major one, was clearly dirty boiler water. The short version is that once I was able to thoroughly clean the boiler tank, the water level stopped dropping to -4” (and hence “exposing the Hartford Loop connection”) and the hammer stopped occurring.

With regard to the “undersized boiler” issue, thanks to your input I am no longer of the belief that I need to replace my boiler due to the fact that it is, “on paper,” undersized.

Details

A. Variation in the water level:
Pre-cleaning: + 1.5” to -4.5” (the hammer only occurred when the water level dropped to less than -4”, which, in turn only occurred at a cold start);
Post-cleaning: +1” to -1.5”

B. How I removed the skim plug: i. PB Blaster penetrant; ii. light percussion with hammer; iii. use of a “home owner” torch, but with an acetylene (yellow-colored) tank instead of propane (blue-colored tank); and, iv. 24” pipe wrench with 4’ cheater bar (I tried a 36” pipe wrench, but still not enough leverage).

C. Boiler cleaning
1. Flush from top: i. removed the pressure relief valve; ii. spray water via garden hose attached to my utility sink.
2. Skim via skim port: I skimmed for approx 2.5 hr.
3. “Flush wand” via the skim port: per a YouTube video by Gerry Gill I made a “flush wand” for my garden hose. Gerry used a port at the bottom of the boiler; I had the skim port open, so I used that. See attached picture.
4. I will do additional operate/clean, but, will probably wait until the fall heating season.

Questions

With regard to the “source” of the dirt in my boiler water, I am sure that some was due to recent piping modifications, but, I am guessing that the majority of the problem was due the 15 years of extremely excessive water input that I mentioned earlier in this post (i.e., solids and scale).
1. Does that make sense?
2. If so, any recommendations, over and above the basic boiler cleaning techniques id’d above, for removing years of built up scale?

KevinK

j a said:

... Truly don't like so called auto feeds... Don't be going on a winter trip to Florida putting your trust in them....they can cause in some cases under fill,over fill, flooding.

Response: Agreed. Mine once stuck open just as you said. Luckily I was home. The water got to the 1st floor radiator vents! I am planning to remove mine, assuming that it doesn't adversely affect the LWCO that it is attached to.



.

ChrisJ

KevinK said:

Update: SUCCESS!

Short Version

Wow. And thanks to all. You guys are great! The problem, at least the major one, was clearly dirty boiler water. The short version is that once I was able to thoroughly clean the boiler tank, the water level stopped dropping to -4” (and hence “exposing the Hartford Loop connection”) and the hammer stopped occurring.

With regard to the “undersized boiler” issue, thanks to your input I am no longer of the belief that I need to replace my boiler due to the fact that it is, “on paper,” undersized.

Details

A. Variation in the water level:
Pre-cleaning: + 1.5” to -4.5” (the hammer only occurred when the water level dropped to less than -4”, which, in turn only occurred at a cold start);
Post-cleaning: +1” to -1.5”

B. How I removed the skim plug: i. PB Blaster penetrant; ii. light percussion with hammer; iii. use of a “home owner” torch, but with an acetylene (yellow-colored) tank instead of propane (blue-colored tank); and, iv. 24” pipe wrench with 4’ cheater bar (I tried a 36” pipe wrench, but still not enough leverage).

C. Boiler cleaning
1. Flush from top: i. removed the pressure relief valve; ii. spray water via garden hose attached to my utility sink.
2. Skim via skim port: I skimmed for approx 2.5 hr.
3. “Flush wand” via the skim port: per a YouTube video by Gerry Gill I made a “flush wand” for my garden hose. Gerry used a port at the bottom of the boiler; I had the skim port open, so I used that. See attached picture.
4. I will do additional operate/clean, but, will probably wait until the fall heating season.

Questions

With regard to the “source” of the dirt in my boiler water, I am sure that some was due to recent piping modifications, but, I am guessing that the majority of the problem was due the 15 years of extremely excessive water input that I mentioned earlier in this post (i.e., solids and scale).
1. Does that make sense?
2. If so, any recommendations, over and above the basic boiler cleaning techniques id’d above, for removing years of built up scale?

Steamaster tablets will remove scale over time slowly, but you can use four of them to do it fast. With four tablets in you'll need to watch the boiler as it will likely keep puking all of it's water up into the mains and shutting down on low water. Don't worry, it'll come back and fire back up.

After the cleaning, I'd recommend rinsing the boiler out again with the wand and then refilling and using 1 steamaster tablet as treatment. I personally run two, but many have found that is too strong for their system / water.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Rectorseal-68732-Steamaster-Tablet

Fred

Glad to hear you've had success! Aside from using a Steamaster tablet or two, i wouldn't worry too much about the boiler water. Given it went so many years without a good skimming, You may well have to do it again at some point during the next heating season or whenever you have some pipe work done but that is normal until any oils/dirt that may be out in the system returns to the boiler. Just make sure that skim plug is always available to use. Now that you have also wand'ed the boiler out, I wouldn't be too concerned about having to do that again either.

SWEI

Nice wand.

RobG

SWEI said:

Nice wand.

That's what she said!