Undersized Boiler/Hammer/Boiler Replacement Questions – One-pipe Steam

Jamie Hall

Sounds at least vaguely plausible -- plausible enough, anyway, to have a go at going after it. Which is going to be fun... but at least it's warm weather now! Part of the reason I say it's plausible is that it doesn't take much of a clog to give real problems, as the pressure differences are so low that it won't purge itself, or at least won't purge easily.

KevinK

Jamie Hall said:

Sounds at least vaguely plausible -- plausible enough, anyway, to have a go at going after it. Which is going to be fun... but at least it's warm weather now! Part of the reason I say it's plausible is that it doesn't take much of a clog to give real problems, as the pressure differences are so low that it won't purge itself, or at least won't purge easily.

Response: My thinking exactly. Plus, as I said, I know that I got a LOT of gunk out of the post-Equalizer clean-out, and only AFTER the hammer started.

Fred

Squick will help to disperse the oils into the water but it will eventually find the surface again.

vaporvac

There is no way Squick cleans a boiler and new piping of oils all on its own. I've wanded and skimmed multiple times, hot & cold, slow & fast. I still could do more. The difference in water level is amazing. However, you should still clean out that bit of wet return. I couldn't believe the sludge when I opened mine up. Yuck.

KevinK

vaporvac said:

There is no way Squick cleans a boiler and new piping of oils all on its own. I've wanded and skimmed multiple times, hot & cold, slow & fast. I still could do more. The difference in water level is amazing. However, you should still clean out that bit of wet return. I couldn't believe the sludge when I opened mine up. Yuck.

1. Understood. 2. Very helpful "fleshing out" since I am new to skimming.

KevinK

Question: In the interim, while I arrange to have the skim port opened, can I skim the boiler via the upper sight glass port?

vaporvac

Search "skim" and you should see a few posts with alternate p;aces to skim. I think some folks have used the pressure relief port. Help me out here guys.

Charlie from wmass

Squick is used as triage if used according to directions it can get the bulk out, especially since the skim port is being difficult to remove. I am not advocating it instead of a proper skim.

KevinK

1. Vaporvac: Thanks. I will search "skim" as you suggest.
2. Charlie: Understood. Thanks for the clarification.

Fred

KevinK said:

Question: In the interim, while I arrange to have the skim port opened, can I skim the boiler via the upper sight glass port?

Ideally you want at minimum 3/4" skim port. That upper sight glass tapping is only 1/2" but I would say i you skim very very slowly, you might be able to skim from there. Not ideal but better than no skim at all.
If the Pressure relief valve were mounted on the side of the boiler, you could use that 3/4" tapping, which is what I use but in your case, the Pressure Relief valve is mounted on top of the boiler and not usable for skimming.

KevinK

Response to Fred: thanks.

Charlie from wmass

The fitting to the right as you look at the pressuretrol is that a tee or 90? I can not see as I am looking at it on my phone. If it is a tee you can skim it there if it is a 90 replace it with a tee And skim it there.

KevinK

"Blowing off steam": my contractor has struck again. During the boiler replacement, the contractor installed an auto water feed (electric). The installation manual calls for a manual water feed bypass loop. As I read up on skimming, I find that having the manual bypass is essential. The contractor did not install such. Unbelievable. I think a conversation with Better Business Bureau is long overdue.

Charlie from wmass

Piece of tape on the feed switch for now and save your blood pressure. Kind of like a bad divorce, you need to pick your battles and move forward. Jmho

KevinK

Charlie from wmass said:

The fitting to the right as you look at the pressuretrol is that a tee or 90? I can not see as I am looking at it on my phone. If it is a tee you can skim it there if it is a 90 replace it with a tee And skim it there.

Response: it is a tee/it is the skim port. The problem is that I cannot get the plug out (see other, above, posts in this regard).

RobG

KevinK said:

"Blowing off steam": my contractor has struck again. During the boiler replacement, the contractor installed an auto water feed (electric). The installation manual calls for a manual water feed bypass loop. As I read up on skimming, I find that having the manual bypass is essential. The contractor did not install such. Unbelievable. I think a conversation with Better Business Bureau is long overdue.

Don't bother with the BBB they are not a government agency and are no better than contractor extortionists. If the job was done so poorly the only recourse is small claims court.

Charlie from wmass

Oh I thought you were trying to get a plug out of the block. Do you have a 4 pound hammer? If so try to tighten the plug with your largest wrench then put it on to loosen it and tap the wrench firmly as you press on the wrench. Hold the far end of the handle and tap up near the adjusting nut.

KevinK

Charlie from wmass said:

Piece of tape on the feed switch for now and save your blood pressure. Kind of like a bad divorce, you need to pick your battles and move forward. Jmho

Response: Good suggestion. I'll try the tape.
Add'l Response: I just tested this manually. When I hold the manual fill button down, the unit generates an electronic hum. Raises the question: any adverse effect to the unit if the manual fill button is taped down for hours on end?

Fred

You can't just tape that button down. The flow of water will be way too fast for a proper skim. Once you fill the boiler enough that water starts to flow out of the skim port, you will need to somehow position that button down enough to allow just a trickle of water into the boiler during the entire skim. It must be a very slow trickle. Is there any shut off valve in the water line between the water feeder and the boiler that you can throttle down? Will the manual button still pass water if you turn power off to the boiler (which should shut power off to the feeder as well) so that there is no hum? I wouldn't want any relay or switch to run constantly for several hours everytime you need to skim. They aren't designed for that.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

You can't just tape that button down. The flow of water will be way too fast for a proper skim. Once you fill the boiler enough that water starts to flow out of the skim port, you will need to somehow position that button down enough to allow just a trickle of water into the boiler during the entire skim. It must be a very slow trickle. Is there any shut off valve in the water line between the water feeder and the boiler that you can throttle down? Will the manual button still pass water if you disconnect a wire to the feeder so that there is no hum? I wouldn't want any relay or switch to run constantly for several hours everytime you need to skim. They aren't designed for that.

Some guys feel a fast skim works better. By fast, I mean quite a bit faster than the autofeeder can do.

Personally, I found the wand works best, but still follow it with a fast skim.

Fred

A fast skim on my Burnham has little to no effect at removing the oils. It may have something to do with the Boiler capacity. Mine is about 25 gallons and I think the turbulence created by a faster skim just doen't get the oils out. Slow is always a safe way to go to get the results you want. JMHO

Charlie from wmass

The VXT has a 1 gpm restrictor. If that is too fast throttle it with the manual valve supplying it. Why would you skim for hours? 30 minutes gets the majority out. Then you need to boil it again to drive our O2 and loosen things up.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

The VXT has a 1 gpm restrictor. If that is too fast throttle it with the manual valve supplying it. Why would you skim for hours? 30 minutes gets the majority out. Then you need to boil it again to drive our O2 and loosen things up.

I skimmed my boiler for hours multiple times and couldn't get it all out. I believe I skimmed 15 gallons at a time, 6 times and finally gave up and used the wand. One of times, I fell asleep and had a small mess to clean up because I was skimming very slow. I would fire up the boiler occasionally to keep the water very hot. Though honestly, I can't see how heating the water could not cause turbulence. It must.

After the wand all the oil was finally gone.

Charlie from wmass

How much oil are you guys getting into your systems? I have never had to skim a boiler that much. Even ones other people have installed. Hatterasguy I will be stealing the cap idea.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

How much oil are you guys getting into your systems? I have never had to skim a boiler that much. Even ones other people have installed. Hatterasguy I will be stealing the cap idea.

I got a little in it from my new oily piping, but the block it self must have been unbelievably oily.

Maybe you don't get your water as clean as I keep mine. That's the only thing I can think of honestly.

STEAM DOCTOR

Run an hose to the boiler drain. Connect supply side of hose to water heater or any available hose spigot. Throttle the supply to suit your needs

Jamie Hall

Charlie from wmass said:

How much oil are you guys getting into your systems? I have never had to skim a boiler that much. Even ones other people have installed. Hatterasguy I will be stealing the cap idea.

Did we even skim Cedric at all? I don't remember...

Charlie from wmass

Yes I did. For about 20 minutes after the first firing.

Jamie Hall

Well, it worked!

Fred

I had to skim mine for hours as well and multiple times (3) before the water stabalized.

Charlie from wmass

Just lucky I guess.

ChrisJ

I don't know what the deal is, but I do know I can run two Steamaster tablets in my boiler and the water line is very stable.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

I also know that the Steammaster tablets did NOTHING for stability on the ECR. Wouldn't have believed it myself but all it did was change the color of the water.

If anything, they will make it more unstable if the water is dirty.
They don't help in that sense.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

You'd need to explain why the water is dirty after 15 skims and running nearly 1000 gallons of water through this boiler.

Believe me, I don't understand it.

Because you're trying to wash oil out of a boiler with no pressure, no brushes and no soap? Also good chance oil was trapped on the other side of the hartford loop as well as in other drops down from the dry returns. The oil sits on the surface in those areas and takes forever to come back.

Cast iron is porous. When it's soaked in oil it takes a long long time to get all of it out. Combine that with the fact you're just letting water rest against it, sometimes boiling to remove it and you're fighting an uphill battle.

Wand + hot water = fast, easy and effective.

KevinK

Status Update

A. Current Plan of Attack – To summarize, the following identifies the tasks/approach I am currently working on:
1. Skim boiler – will perform as soon as I get my skim port (or useable alternative) open;
2. Open and flush the near-boiler wet return – ie, the approx 4 ft of iron pipe section running from the elbow at the bottom of the Equalizer to the wet return boiler inlet; and,
3. Wash out the boiler via the wet return port (per the Gerry Gill video at:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=q1tw9rz-pUk ).

B. Use of Squick:
1. I added a container of Squick to the boiler on Saturday. Did an immediate cold fire. Result: no significant change in the water level variation/occurrence of hammer;
2. I drained ~ 3+ gal out of the mud leg over several days. Initially pretty dirty/murky. Now just rust brown colored, but “clear;”
3. Performed 2nd cold start on Monday. Still no significant change. … I drained some add’l water.

C. Additional Notes:
1. Note: if I “go silent” for a bit, it is because I am working on the task list noted above and have nothing new to report. As soon as I have news, I will post.
2. In particular, as soon as I get my cold-start video posted to YouTube, I will post a notice. I suspect that those of you with experience with multiple boilers will find it informative.
3. RE: water level in sight glass staying "stuck" when I add or remove water - this continues to occur, but only intermittently.
4. RE: several "between the header and the mains" piping issues identified by several commenters (eg, the bull tee to the main) - due to the cost/difficulty I will wait on addressing these until: i. the end of heating season; and, ii. I see what comes of addressing the three “plan of attack” items noted above.

Fred

@KevinK Add one more minor task to your list. The fact that the water level in the sight glass "stays stuck" is a good indicator that the ports that that sight glass are mounted to, top/bottom or both, are probably plugged with gunk (as long as you are sure that both the top and bottom valves are fully open). Take the sight glass and valves off and clean the valves and the tappings into the boiler.
While you are at it, take the Pressuretrol off and tale the pigtail (curled pipe) off and make sure it is clean and that the tapping into the boiler for it is also open. Might as well do these things while you have the boiler drained as they are part on any routine maintenance.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

You'd need to explain why the water is dirty after 15 skims and running nearly 1000 gallons of water through this boiler.

Believe me, I don't understand it.

Because you're trying to wash oil out of a boiler with no pressure, no brushes and no soap? Also good chance oil was trapped on the other side of the hartford loop as well as in other drops down from the dry returns. The oil sits on the surface in those areas and takes forever to come back.

Cast iron is porous. When it's soaked in oil it takes a long long time to get all of it out. Combine that with the fact you're just letting water rest against it, sometimes boiling to remove it and you're fighting an uphill battle.

Wand + hot water = fast, easy and effective.

The wand approach is great for the boiler itself but it still won't get any oils in the returns/before the Hartford loop. as a result of replaced piping. Only allowing enough time for it to work its way back to the boiler and skimming will fix that, unless you want to drain and wand the boiler every couple weeks for a few sessions.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

ChrisJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

You'd need to explain why the water is dirty after 15 skims and running nearly 1000 gallons of water through this boiler.

Believe me, I don't understand it.

Because you're trying to wash oil out of a boiler with no pressure, no brushes and no soap? Also good chance oil was trapped on the other side of the hartford loop as well as in other drops down from the dry returns. The oil sits on the surface in those areas and takes forever to come back.

Cast iron is porous. When it's soaked in oil it takes a long long time to get all of it out. Combine that with the fact you're just letting water rest against it, sometimes boiling to remove it and you're fighting an uphill battle.

Wand + hot water = fast, easy and effective.

The wand approach is great for the boiler itself but it still won't get any oils in the returns/before the Hartford loop. as a result of replaced piping. Only allowing enough time for it to work its way back to the boiler and skimming will fix that, unless you want to drain and wand the boiler every couple weeks for a few sessions.

It takes months to wash all of the oil out of pipes in my opinion. I'd say two washes, the initial to clean the boiler, and a second after everything else rinses down.

Charlie from wmass

Do you have king valves? Maybe that is my trick. I install them and return valves , run the boiler to 10 psi, and blow it down.

Paul48

Have "A" dimensions been verified? I understand a condensate tank and pump were removed, was a check valve left in place? Sorry if I'm covering old ground.