Another license on Long Island

jonny88

The joys of this place.NYC all 5 boroughs require 1 license.I got a chance to bid on a boiler job today in Long Island.Suffolk Co.I already have 5 licenses for areas I work in here.However this town requires a seperate license.So now if I have to take test same one I past before so I can bid on a job.Exam ,lead wipe ,written etc.I asked can I reciprocate but was told the Towns I hold licenses in stopped reciprocating with Suffolk Co so in turn they stopped reciprocating with them.Why cant we just pay you your fee and quit the games.It adds up having to renew these licenses.Very frustrating.

BobC

At this point it's all about generating revenue, safety is very important but money pays the bills (so they think). I'll bet by the time it;s all said and done it actually costs the the jurisdiction money out of pocket.

Bob

wogpa67

This is what drives the cost up to the customer. then they give it a go(the customer). good or bad; and we lose or win on making it right.

Larry_52

Actually this kind of regulation creates the problems they are built to prevent. It breeds hacks and consumers whom wish to use them.

Danny Scully

What town Jonny?

Robert O'Connor_12

That's just stupid.
NJ did away with the individual license requirement almost 40 years ago!
Sucks you gotta go through this mess.
Most people won't know how to wipe a joint if there lives depended on it.
If you hear any banjo's playing, lock your door.

SWEI

Reminds me of what Texas used to be like.

jonny88

@Danny Scully ,Brookhaven,they said I need a Suffolk license even though Islip is in Suffolk.One more in Southampton.I jist figure on biting the bullet and taking exam and hopefully passing it.Got to brush up on the lead wipe.Thanks.

icesailor

Robert O'Connor said:

That's just stupid.
NJ did away with the individual license requirement almost 40 years ago!
Sucks you gotta go through this mess.
Most people won't know how to wipe a joint if there lives depended on it.
If you hear any banjo's playing, lock your door.

And Jurisdictions that require applicants to Wipe a lead joint probably have inspectors that can't wipe their @$$ with a rag. Let alone wiping a lead joint when the last time they did one was over 20 years ago when they sat for their license test.

If towns want more revenue, Inspectors should be standing outside of HD and Lowes, where all the underground plumbing & heating "contractors" get their materials to do all their un-permitted and illegal work. Most local town administrators, when looking for sources of revenue, couldn't find grass in a freshly mown hay field.

jonny88

Ice its great to have you back

Paul Pollets

Fortunately WA state has statewide licensing with 2 levels: Residential & Journey (Master) The license is statewide and also has reciprocity with Oregon, Montana and Alaska. 16hrs of CE required every 2 years for renewal. That's the easy way...

SWEI

NM is a mixed bag. We have state-based licensing (thankfully) but there are a number of incongruities in our classifications.

Electrical has residential and commercial license classes. To qualify for an EE-98 (commercial) license your experience must include commercial work.

Mechanical has four classifications (plumbing, gas, HVAC, and process piping) but no real distinction is made between commercial and residential (other than needing the MM-4 process piping license to install or service a boiler over 400,000 BTU/hr, a hydronic system over 30 PSI, or a steam system over 15 PSI.) Four years' experience crimping PEX and gluing PVC in tract houses qualifies you to take the plumbing test. Assuming they pass, the MM-1 license allows them to pull a permit for plumbing a hospital or a high-rise.

EBEBRATT-Ed

MA has separate licenses for oil burners, gas (although plumbers can do gas), plumbing, refrigeration, electrical
,pipefitting and sheet metal. With MA, CT & VT I have 10 licenses and don't have enough but not getting any more. Never mind all the code update classes we have to go to. It's a money maker for the state that's for sure. CT is just as bad they license lawn sprinklers, tv antennas etc.

SWEI

Our CEU's are tied to journeyman cards instead of contractors' licenses. Most HVAC techs or plumbers hold at least two journeymen cards, and quite a few have 5+. Every one comes with a CEU requirement.

Charlie from wmass

Most trades are not even allowed to touch lead and here they are asking you to work with it. Just about egos more than money I would bet. Like kids on a playground fighting. The powers that be i am referring to. Call the EPA and ask them how much lead you are allowed to smelt in an exam room?

jonny88

Very good point Charlie but to be honest I really enjoyed learning how to do a lead wipe.It was a real old timer who gave the class and was nice to see.Funny thing there was a kid in the class who was there on some grant,a golf trainer in the summer and unemployed in winter so he qualified for tech schools and choose this class I dont know why.Anyhow he had zero hours in the field and he had the best joint in the class.There was 2 NYC Lic plumbers there also,goes to show but the kid had a beautiful touch.
For contractors all they have to do is pay a fee and off they go.Bear in mind they are building a house,no exams nada just pay the fee load up truck and away he goes.Electricians and plumbers get the **** end of it.

Charlie from wmass

My Da has the touch with wiping a joint. When he started the trade they were still wiping lead for water meters and other domestic water.

icesailor

Charlie from wmass said:

Most trades are not even allowed to touch lead and here they are asking you to work with it. Just about egos more than money I would bet. Like kids on a playground fighting. The powers that be i am referring to. Call the EPA and ask them how much lead you are allowed to smelt in an exam room?

Or are lead water services with wiped connections are still allowed under EPA Clean Water Regs. And what does EPA and the AHJ say about high lead levels in a domestic home with high lead levels in a water sample. Especially in low PH water?

I don't know about other states, but in Massachusetts, you have to get a permit from God and take all kinds of special precautions just to grind old lead containing paint off of your house. With road bridges, you have to follow special procedures to keep the old lead paint chips away from the public.

And NYC wants you to be able to prepare and wipe a lead joint? That's a requirement? Don't they have lead abatement laws in NYC and NY State? Like you can't rent to families with children if the paint tests positive because lead tastes sweet, and little children like the taste of it. I had a customer/friend who was a Pediatric Neurologist, specializing in developmental delay issues in children. She spent so much time in court testifying as an expert witness that she became a Lawyer too. To give herself better expert witness standing. Plus, she was a brilliant woman. She told me once over 20 years ago that there was NO safe lead level in the human body.

If you think it is a fine idea in NYC to be exposed to lead, I'll watch from a distance. Protected.

Want to see a municipal water provider squirm? Tell them that you have a house that has no lead piping in the system from the curb stop in because it was all replaced with plastic 10 years ago, but you get high lead levels on first draw in the morning, so it must be a lead service in the street from the corporation cock at the main to the curb stop. And there are little children living in the house.

Harvey Ramer

Lead is a Neurotoxin.

icesailor

Harvey Ramer said:

Lead is a Neurotoxin.

Easily absorbed into the human body.

jonny88

We all agree on the lead issue.In NYC however in a high rise if doing an apartment reno we go back to starter fitting.I will 100% of the time caulk my first piece into that fitting rather than use a gasket.I enjoyed wiping lead for experience and also it gave an insight into how hard the old timers had it.I fully agree and believe we all do it has no place in a water system I think was Charlie was getting at was the respect he had for his father.Some have that touch some dont.I dont believe he was advocating for using lead on new services.

Charlie from wmass

Yes @jonny88 it was about the skill he has. I have respect for those who can wipe a joint for a ferrule.

Charlie from wmass

Probably shouldn't have taken all those sinkers off my fishing line with my teeth then. Thanks for telling me now. Not discounting the danger of lead,just wondering why my levels are so low.

icesailor

Charlie from wmass said:

Probably shouldn't have taken all those sinkers off my fishing line with my teeth then. Thanks for telling me now. Not discounting the danger of lead,just wondering why my levels are so low.

Charlie:

Those old "lead: sinkers might have been made from Junk Lead, and not 100% Virgin lead. Lead contaminated with tin from salvaging old lead pipe might have some tin in it. You can tell if you can scratch the lead with your fingernail. If you can't scratch it and leave a mark, it isn't pure lead. Did your dad pass that factoid on to you?

The problem with using reclaimed lead on cast iron lead and oakum fittings is that once the solder/tin gets into the lead, the melting point goes down and the lead can't be compressed. If the lead joint weeps under a water test, you can't really use a caulking iron and compress the lead and oakum. You might split the hub.

And how easy is it for a rookie to just melt that solder wipe blister and let it fsll

j a_2

Not thats totally relevant, but I once had a customer that when I first went in to price a whole house gut job,she told me she wanted all cast iron/no hub and copper for the d w v system…I said sure but why…answer was she insisted on being green and very environmentally friendly…Long story short, when i gave her the price, the look I got was, omg that much…P V C it was, but not by me…Most times but maybe not always it comes down to the almighty dollar…

jonny88

Sad but true.But thats the way the industry has gone in my opinion.Wouldn't it be better if we just went back to cast iron and copper.I did an apt in NYC and the super would only let us use brass on water lines.Anyhow I have my application in for exam.Step 1 I have to meet before the board and pass initial interview to deem myself worthy of taking their exam.Have a feeling I might get thrown out........

icesailor

Remember.

They're smart. You're not. It is in YOUR best interest to make them think that you actually think that way.

Then, if they ask you some question that sounds simple to them, but from your personal experiences, know that it is far more complicated than the simple question, you can answer with something that even they can't comprehend.

When we were in school, there were those that couldn't keep their mouths shut and needed a beating or tune up on a regular basis, just to keep them in line. Those folks grow up to be inspectors, LE Officers, or Mall Cops where they have legal authority to make your life miserable. If some of those inspectors had the organizational skills to run a business with multiple employees and multiple complex jobs, they wouldn't be at a desk or table asking YOU questions that they expect you to be able to answer.

If you ever watch Caesar Milan, "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Wild, everything you want to know about dealing with people is explained by Caesar in a pack of dogs. A new dog to a pack must show a certain element of submission. Or they get rejected by the pack. Every dog has a role in the pack. If you want to join the pack, you have to follow their unwritten rules.

Mad Dog_2

The Nassau PHCC has been lobbying for many years for a countywide license based on the Westchester County Model. They've made some progress, but it's an extremely difficult political minefield of red tape and competitive interests. It would behoove you to join to get involved: Very professional contractors in the cutting edge of industry trends. Political action, money and hardwork is the only way it will happen. When I was starting out in business, they got me on the right track. Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

Nassau County alone has 64 towns and villages, many with their own license and permit fees. Suffolk probably has close to that, but not sure. Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

I'm glad I wiped lead for my license. It's becoming a lost art and shows a high degree of competency. As long as your not eating fried chicken with your hands after handling plumbum, I believe the benefits of lead FAR outweigh perceived risks....remember. .just don't ingest it...and You'll be fine. Some of those towns have done away with leadwiping and that MAY be one reason other towns that still use it dont reciprocate and I dont blame them. Some of those practical tests are a joke and really don't show any high degree of mechanical competence. Gluing PVC together shouldn't qualify ANY ONE for a master plumbers license. Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

Jonny. Get the General Suffolk County Plumbing lic. Thru Consumer affairs, then one from a major township like Huntington, which is a highly regarded lic. That almost all Nassau Townships and villages will reciprocate as well as most Suffolk towns. Then you shoukd be good to go from the Nassau/Queens border to The Lighthouse. Not to say some pencil pusher in East Cupcake wont give u a hard time pulling a permit from time to time. Like Icesailer says: smile like an idiot and dont walk away from the permit counter till you get it. Mad Dog

icesailor

In 1974, when I took my Massachusetts Master Plumbers License exam, there were 20 questions on the written test. The first one was to draw a school with 1200 students, equal boys and girls, show how many fixtures needed and make a single line drawing of the drain wastes and vents of the restrooms. Size all water piping for said properly allocated fixtures.

Make a single line sketch of the required fixtures in the schools kitchen all sized and connected.

Draw a chemistry lab with all applicable fixtures and their connections.

They gave you the water supply distribution tables to use.

PVC was in use at that time. There were no practical questions about connecting PVC. The Practical question could be anything. I was handed a device/fitting and asked what it was and how did it work. It was a Hydraulic Ram, used to move water from one hill to another without a pump.

You could use a calculator, but only to prove your work. You had to show how you arrived at the answer.

I passed.

Some years later, they went to Multiple Choice, open book machine scored tests.

One of my favorites on my Journeyman's Test: "How can you properly bend gas pipe?

Answer: You can't.

jonny88

@Mad Dog if you dont mind me asking what happened to your company or are you still operational.Ii have Huntington,Oyster bay ,Hempstead,North Hempstead,Islip.
I do agree the lead wipe was nice and required a lot of practice.
Exams should not be easy,I worked with my friend for 10 years who has a NYC license which he has not used yet.Now that is a real exam and for one to pass that you gotta be on your game.
Enjoy the weekend guys

Mad Dog_2

Jonny: I closed the doors in 2011 after 12 yrs and went to work for others. Between the BAD economy, a big mortgage, and three kids in Catholic school, the money just wasn't cutting it. I am very happy and fulfilled, and, with the much-less-pressure, I finally have time to learn new things and bone up on the math and science behind our trade. I'm even learning the air-side these days. I do some consulting when time allows. Shoot me an email : plumbing3c@gmail.com. or call anytime. 516.322.2881 . Matt Mad Dog Sweeney

icesailor

@Mad Dog:

"" Icesailer says: smile like an idiot and dont walk away from the permit counter till you get it. Mad Dog ""

I don't ever remember saying that, but I wish I had.

What I might say is to remember that they are smart, and we're not. We know otherwise, but make them think they are still smart.

jonny88

Thanks Mad Dog.I can certainly equate.I will get in touch.thanks

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Mad DOg Running your own business isn't much fun. I tried it for 5-6 years until the economy went bad in 91'. You sit there and watch the money you made get gobbled up by insurance and taxes--They don't care if you don't have much work.

Get up early load the truck, work all day, come home, send out the bills, pay bills and estimate jobs. Get up the next day and do it all over again.

Life has to have a balance, I still work way too much, but at least we can have a vacation once in a while without feeling guilty.
Works for some people, not for me.

Patchogue Phil_2

j a said:

she wanted all cast iron/no hub and copper

Made me think of this movie scene ....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-8lGyWPZn8g

Mad Dog_2

Icesailor, I was paraphrasing and expounding on your theme. I wholeheartedly agree.
Ed: yep, very tough for very small and mom & pop businesses to make it anymore and you will spend much of your potential "free time," giving free estimates, aka, them picking your hydronically-educated brain and using your design ideas and use the low bidder. Glad I'm out of that! Mad Dog

j a_2

Mad dog it was tuff....part of me loved it...but you know the rest...

Mad Dog_2

I only miss the complete "freedom" steering your own ship. A steady check and bennies hold a certain calm that you can't beat. Mad,Dog