Customer wants new heater

Paul48

That's a "horse of a different color". If you charge, and are not licensed, you should get jail time. Those persons are presenting themselves as a professional. As for homeowners doing work within their own walls, if they were really concerned about public safety, the law would simply state that all plumbing must be permitted and inspected.

Charlie from wmass

If a diy fails inspection who fixes it?

BobC

I agree that people doing this work without a license is a bad idea. The problem is that many people simply don't have the money to pay the going rates of licensed contractors. A lot of these folks don't have an established relationship with a contractor. In some cases they are then in the position of deciding to buy food or get something fixed, this does not include those who squeak when they walk down the street.

We have to find a way to keep people safe, I don't know what the answer is but it does merit thought. maybe allowing knowledgeable homeowners to do their own work, with inspection, is the way to go.

I just had my electrical service upgraded to current standards (it was a fuses 60A and I wanted 100A) I asked the contractor if he saw anything that was improper, he told me anything done within the last 40 years was fine. All of that work was done by me and I tend to be conservative in such matters.

Safety is the over riding factor, it is important that we bring people doing their own work into the fold. The problem then would lie with the community inspectors who I have found to be seriously lacking.

Bob

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

If a diy fails inspection who fixes it?

Same thing as anyone else?
If you fail inspection, you have to fix what the inspector wants fixed. Same goes for a DIY.

I was able to call the inspectors while I was doing the work to confirm things. They were more than happy to answer questions on the phone. One of my issues were my neutrals were all doubled up in my electrical panel. Modern code says 1 neutral per screw and the electrical inspector confirmed this on the phone and told me the best way to fix it. I made the changes and when he came out for the final inspection everything passed.

ChrisJ

My my boiler has two large stickers on it, one says approval for plumbing, the other approval for electrical.

I hate having them on it, but know they are required.




Also, anyone that does their own work here without permits will pay for it big time when they try to sell their house.

SWEI

Here in NM, we have what I believe to be an interesting twist on the owner-builder thing. Anyone can act as a GC when building their own house, but the building will forever be marked in the tax records and MLS as "owner built." In order to do your own plumbing or electrical work when building that house, you must pass both written and practical "journeyman lite" tests administered by the Construction Industries Division.

BobC

Tha'ts a good way to handle this kind of situation.

Bob

ChrisJ

I'd be willing to take tests.

Charlie from wmass

Small town part time inspectors don't have resources or time to answer questions for every job aspect. There are many programs to help those without the means to get the repairs they need, at least in my liberal state. People need to be able to find these programs. I am in the business of cleaning up after bad jobs by both pros and non pros. I am bias.

unclejohn

I have seen tanks rust through from leaks above them. Foam insulation will trap the moisture and that's what was on this particular tank. That job leaked for almost a year. No I didn't install the original just the replacement. I would rather have a happy customer, so I would replace it and use it your own home or sell to someone else at a discount.

SWEI

I left out: No DIY gas piping, period. LP is even tighter.

jonny88

@ChrisJ how many boilers do we see here with inspection certs on them.Kudos.

Rich_49

People should be able to do their own work . States that do not allow this put the same residents they are trying to protect at risk . Only if the homeowner is able to do his own work will he then file a permit and allow an inspector to view the job . Many more jobs would get inspected this way , IMO .
Maybe not all of those will apply for a permit , but many more than at present . NJ allows this DIY permitting and after the first failure and then a second we get the call to get it done right . Some get it right on the second try and that's OK too .

j a_2

null
In my area its called inspectional services not instructional lol

j a_2

License or no license if you don't know what you are doing. Don't do it...

bmwpowere36m3

ChrisJ said:

Charlie from wmass said:

If a diy fails inspection who fixes it?

Same thing as anyone else?
If you fail inspection, you have to fix what the inspector wants fixed. Same goes for a DIY.

I was able to call the inspectors while I was doing the work to confirm things. They were more than happy to answer questions on the phone. One of my issues were my neutrals were all doubled up in my electrical panel. Modern code says 1 neutral per screw and the electrical inspector confirmed this on the phone and told me the best way to fix it. I made the changes and when he came out for the final inspection everything passed.

Same here in my part of CT. The town will let the homeowner act as the GC and you can do it all yourself... obviously permits need to be pulled for certain tasks and the inspector will inspect once work has been done.

The homeowner being the GC has no bearing on the house, listing or MLS as far as I know in my area.

I'm lucky and my two town inspectors are very knowledge, professional and helpful. They always tell not to hesitate and ask questions if I don't know. I've even been given praise on my boiler install.

So far in my remodel, I've pulled just about every permit: structural, electrical, plumbing, gas... all work done by myself and father. The only thing I had done was the electrical service: drop, meter and panel (only mounted and service line connected, I wired the circuits myself).

I get that certain towns want to protect themselves... but I'd hate living in MA if I needed to hire a licensed professional to do everything... especially when I know I can do sometimes myself.

Paul48

Don't do it....Until you learn how to do it correctly. During my life, I have worked with many licensed, skilled tradesman, across many different trades. I have had to stop them, and correct them on many occasions, regarding things they should have been very well versed on. No one is perfect. A license does not make you perfect either.

j a_2

Yup. Clearly if its leagel.its perfectly OK...as said my areaa has different laws. And that is what I go by...I have a no choice

Charlie from wmass

I have installed a few boilers in CT and had to explain the installation to them. CT inspectors are not trade specific. What passes for a good install for many inspectors is not what people on the wall would like.

Paul48

Charlie......That's a problem across the country. We just had some postings, attempting to compile a list of questions for potential contractors, and that's a good idea. But, there is no protection for the homeowner. Inspectors make sure you wont die from CO, but you might freeze to death.If you want to put an addition on your house, you have to submit plans. Why don't they require a heat loss and plans, to pull a permit for a boiler replacement? Many aspects of residential plumbing codes don't necessarily protect the public in general. They simply ensure that the plumbing will work correctly.

bmwpowere36m3

Charlie from wmass said:

I have installed a few boilers in CT and had to explain the installation to them. CT inspectors are not trade specific. What passes for a good install for many inspectors is not what people on the wall would like.

And... what you getting at?

Inspector only cares about CODE, right? Who says the pipes have to be straight, solder joints clean/shiny, general "neatness", PONPC pump away, primary/secondary piping, etc... Inspector isn't there to critique your system, only insure it meets code minimums and any obvious safety issues. I don’t think an inspection will guarantee a working heating system…

Paul48

I think the permitting and inspection process should guarantee a working system. What Charlie was getting at...is the very heart of the problem. Folks believe that they have done everything correctly, and the system as it is now, fails them.

j a_2

We are required null
Here in my town you are required to present a heat loss, or J curve for any additions...that's the issue with blanket statements....

Charlie from wmass

This boiler was inspected two times. Once as an oil boiler then as a gas burner.

4Johnpipe

Its perfectly legal for a homeowner to perform just about any work to their own home here in NJ. I always caution if anyone does this to absolutely get inspections where required. most homeowners insurance will drop a claim or not cover it if work is performed by the homeowner and not inspected. This is also why inspectors are more stringent when homeowners perform work. The other side to this is if a licensed trade does it and it is inspected and something goes wrong, breaks or catastrophic failure occurs the insurance companies know they can go after the licensed contractor to recoup losses.

Paul48

ja.............How does that translate to boiler replacement? A permit for an addition was just used as an example, to illustrate how screwed up the system is in regards to boiler installations.

ChrisJ

j a said:

null

In my area its called inspectional services not instructional lol

Things are being taken way out of context now.

I never said our inspectors offered training. But when you aren't 100% sure of something and need to ask they don't mind.

For example, are controls with mercury switches allowed in our town?

He would match rather answer a few quick questions over the phone than fail the inspection and have to come back out.

As far as small towns not having the resources, our town has 6000 people in it. I realize my parents live in a town with only 300 people, but in my book 6000 is pretty small and if the inspectors don't have the time what am I paying for a permit for?

That said, when the inspectors came for my final inspection they didn't even know a homeowner did the work until I told them afterwards. This was because I followed the rules and if I wasn't sure I found out before doing anything.

Just because some homeowners mess things up doesn't mean everyone should be punished. Plenty of "pros" completely botch the installation of steam boilers and I don't see anything happening there. As I've said before, a so called "pro" almost killed me and my family with CO poisoning.

Yes, this is personal to me. I'm getting told by certain people I shouldn't do my own work because I'm not licensed, meanwhile a licensed person almost killed my family.

I've heard stories on the wall about a professional forgetting to tighten the union on a gas line to a waterheater. That doesn't sound dangerous at all.


Anyway, sorry for the rant. Dan asks us to play nice and we should.

Charlie from wmass

The issue is doing things right is the exception not the rule. I applaud the work you did, it is better than many professional installation I see.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

The issue is doing things right is the exception not the rule. I applaud the work you did, it is better than many professional installation I see.

Thank you Charlie.

Fred

After all the discussions, I think it boils down to a very basic principal. Those of us who are home owners and who feel we can do our own work will continue to do so. If you live in a municipality where code is available to ensure the homeowner or professional does the job to an acceptable standard, we don't need anyone's permission or approval to tackle the job ourselves. Many homeowners will do a better job than a Pro, simply because we have a vested interest in our home and our family. Why are we belaboring this issue?
I do my own gas lines, water heaters, furnaces (haven't had to do a boiler replacement yet), electrical work, plumbing, central air, whatever needs to be done. I have yet to have an inspection fail. I did have one plumbing job questioned by the inspector once because he thought I used a lead based solder but a quick lead test proved him wrong.
I will say I have a rental property that the utility company replaced the gas meters, as a matter of routine maintenance, and failed to tighten the unions on two of the four meters. When they got a call because the tenant smelled gas, they came back out (with me standing beside them and them being red faced) tightened those unions and apologizing for the inconvenience. LOL.
It's not who does the job, It's how the job is done!

EDIT: I will also be the first to acknowledge there are lazy slobs everywhere, both Homeowners and Pro's. How to fix that without unduly burdening the homeowner or the Pro is anyone's guess.

Charlie from wmass

I can sure make a thread explode. I started this because the OP said the customer would accept the heater if a plumber said it was going to be OK after getting wet from the leaking sharkbite fitting. I asked " If you are not a plumber why are you installing a water heater? " I am not sure how this became the beast of a thread it is. I have still not received an answer. Note It was a customer not himself and he was not a plumber or it would say if another plumber approved it.

Fred

Charlie from wmass said:

I can sure make a thread explode. I started this because the OP said the customer would accept the heater if a plumber said it was going to be OK after getting wet from the leaking sharkbite fitting. I asked " If you are not a plumber why are you installing a water heater? " I am not sure how this became the beast of a thread it is. I have still not received an answer. Note It was a customer not himself and he was not a plumber or it would say if another plumber approved it.

LOL. My comments were directed at the general direction this thread took. Your point about this particular situation is well taken.

John Mills_5

The outcome: she requested we hire a respected local plumbing firm to send a guy out for his opinion. His opinion was the unit was fine, no damage done. She's happy. Our rep left, the plumber went in to look at a toilet problem.

John Mills_5

As for why we put in a WH. 2 reasons. We only do it for our regulars. This lady put in new furnace & A/C with us and wanted us to do it so we did. 2nd reason, a lot of big HVAC contractors have gotten into plumbing and are doing the shifty stuff on customers you see in the stings. We hate to have one of our regulars go to one of them and get screwed or pressured into start using the other firm for their HVAC as well. Our county has no permits & inspections and those areas that do don't bother HVAC firms on a simple WH swap. We turn down any other plumbing and refer them to 2 local family businesses we trust. Yes, we had a flaw in our workmanship. Nobody on here can say they never do either.

Charlie from wmass

I am licensed to do both. If I wasn't I wouldn't.

Rich_49

Charlie , I know this may be hard to believe being from the liberal Utopia known as Massachusetts but there are still places in this country that do not require permits nor licensure . The guy gave a commendable response to why he did this and he should be commended on his integrity even if he did use a sharkbite fitting .
massachusetts has some great manufacturing , maybe you could tell me why their programs prefer cheap garbage made 2 states over as opposed to real good stuff made right there .

Charlie from wmass

The programs are being strangled by non liberal distopiates
So to meet unrealistic budgets they. Do what they need to to survive.

Charlie from wmass

I also work in New York even in the counties that have licenses it is simply revenue generation. I am referring to upstate NY.

Charlie from wmass

I am not special because all I do is a proper job. I would not trade this Liberal state for any other because even the hacks here are leagues above what I fix in the neighboring states. With out codes that are based on science we have nothing but glorified handy men. Plumbers protect the public and do more to keep a healthy populous then any other trade. At least the good ones do.

ChrisJ

Interesting.