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Circ Flange Types - Which do You Prefer?

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OK folks - asking your opinion on Circ Flange Types.

Currently there is the "Taco" type (flange bolt plane parallel to the motor shaft) and a reverse type (flange bolt plane perpendicular to the motor shaft). Plus a "universal" 4 bolt and a spinney rotating flange type.

We did a fairly extensive survey about the spinney flange and as much as this was a great idea most installers wouldn't pay the extra $15 to $20 bucks (sorry guys - reality sucks). Plus a lot of the isolation valves have this feature in the valve flange (hence we killed the idea).

Considering cosmetics (I really don't like the "look" of a 4 bolt universal flange), and install space limitations (circs mounted close to a wall), you like the two separate Taco and reverse Taco flange types or do you prefer the 4 bolt universal?
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Comments

  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    I never used the 4 bolt because of the aesthetics. I've never had the need either.
    Steve Minnich
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,379
    edited February 2015
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    I prefer the flange to be perpendicular to the shaft: it allows the circ to be mounted closer to the wall.

    Interesting, Taco calls this reversed flanged, but Grundfos calls the opposite reversed flanged. This is probably the reason the rotating flange is desirable: when replacing one brand with another, the flanges are reversed and the supplier house usually only stocks them in what the manufacturer terms their "standard" flange. During a service call that requires pump replacement, we usually only have one circ on the truck and have to make that work. It would be nice if all the circ manufacturers would agree upon what is standard or reversed flange, but that probably ain't gonna happen.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    SWEIRobG
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    I also prefer the flange perpendicular to the shaft. Not only can you mount closer to the wall, but also, in some of the larger circs that still have the same flange spacing, it's easier to get the bolts in and mount them. Also gives a horizontal piping run more strength.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,703
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    Yes, Taco, the motor is in line with the flange bolts, Grunfos is 90 degrees to the bolts. I was bit by that bug several years ago

    We use Watts ball valved flanges, we were using Webstone but we changed up local vendors.

    We used Taco shut off flanges long ago, they seem to leak when we close them about 50% of the time.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    Ironman said:

    I prefer the flange to be perpendicular to the shaft: it allows the circ to be mounted closer to the wall.

    Interesting, Taco calls this reversed flanged, but Grundfos calls the opposite reversed flanged. This is probably the reason the rotating flange is desirable: when replacing one brand with another, the flanges are reversed and the supplier house usually only stocks them in what the manufacturer terms their "standard" flange. During a service call that requires pump replacement, we usually only have on circ on the truck and have to make that work. It would be nice if all the circ manufacturers would agree upon what is standard or reversed flange, but that probably ain't gonna happen.

    The Supply House Company with 17 stores I traded with always stocked Taco and Wilo circulators with perpendicular and parallel flanges. Most popular were parallel flanges. If doing replacements, you has to buy the proper flange pattern.

    I personally care more about that POS square cut O-Ring flange gasket that some replace with red rubber 1940- red rubber gaskets that dry out and leak. With great big wide fat ones like Wilo uses, there is no way to not use the proper gasket AND THEY DON'T LEAK.

  • Steve Thompson (Taco)
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    Let me do a little research about the gasket thing. I don't know why or when this was changed - now I'm curious...
  • ced48
    ced48 Member Posts: 469
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    Which ever way you decide to go, please keep the nut capture feature the new Viridian's have, it's makes life much easier-
    SWEIkcopp
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    Let me do a little research about the gasket thing. I don't know why or when this was changed - now I'm curious...



    You don't need to do much research. In 1950, all circulators had flat face flange surfaces that took a flat gasket the shape of the flange. It might have been Taco, that with the 110 "Red Baron" circulator, they started cutting a square groove in the pump body for the square cut round O-Ring gasket they supplied. After a while, by the 1970's all circulator manufacturers had switched to the grooved bodies. The problem occurred with some old installers who were incapable of reading instructions or notice that things were different, and trained all their potentials to follow the error of their ways.

    You can buy circulator flanges sized from 3/4" pipe to 1 1/2" pipe. The square cut O-Ring mounted in the provided groove will fit all those sizes. Without the groove, you needed to use the rubber flange shaped gaskets. The most popular were the red rubber ones that were provided as tankless coil gaskets. Which dried out and leaked, causing premature boiler failure. If Taco was the first (and I remember that it was), the idea was that you only needed one gasket to fit all circulators. The first ones were cork. They sucked. When B&G et al switched to grooved bodies, they went to black rubber. For ease of supply, the rubber ones could be substituted for the cork ones. But the Neanderthals held sway. A really good supplier would stock flange gaskets from 3/4" to 1 1/2" IPS. With the 3/4" usually drying out in the box and being useless, Of course, the supply houses stock only what is asked for, and they don't stock the proper round gaskets. Unless you special order them. 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" are the most popular sizes and most stocked. I promise you that a 1 1/2" red rubber flange gasket will NOT completely cover the groove and at some point the gasket will leak. Because the groove will fill up with water, turn to steam and evaporate. Leaving white scuzz behind to rust. Taco even says to not over tighten flanges. But many tighten them down with a 3' pipe wrench for fear they might leak.

    As far as the flange orientation, you need both. Because so many purchase on the Internet, and only have some salesperson sitting in front of a VDT and a keyboard. They have no idea that those numbers after "007" mean something. So they get the wrong circulators. When Taco first came out with the 110, it had perpendicular flanges. If you wanted to replace a B&G, you had to either turn the flanges 90 degrees or mount the circulator 90 degrees from its installed orientation. Some wise person on the higher pay grade finally listened to some slug like me, complaining about how they couldn't swap out a Series 100 with a 110. Unless it was an issue of Wholesalers not knowing that Taco offered Parallel flange circulators as a direct replacement for Series 100's. Which becomes my point.

    In the case of flange orientation, Wilo only makes their ECM circulators with parallel flanges. I'm sure that Taco does too with their high tech circulators. When I swapped out my 007 for Wilo ECM, it was a straight and easy swap. Especially with that big fat wide gasket that will never leak.

    IMO.
    DaimonVilppu
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited February 2015
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    Like this one:
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    Comcast is angry with me for saying unkind things about them so they won't let me load pictures without
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    This would be so much easier if we just used the standard "G union" like they do in most of the rest of the world.

    Perpendicular is easier to assemble in tight quarters. It seems there's always one that's "wrong" when you get down to the last bits on a tight install.
  • Steve Thompson (Taco)
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    Here's what George Taber from Tech Services says about gaskets(4 decades with Taco)...

    The cheap red rubber is not good for hot systems or higher pressures that we see now especially with domestic water recirculation applications. They blow out. I have a 2 million dollar law suit where a contractor used a red rubber on a 2400 pump in a domestic water recirculation system and it blew out soaking medical center and equipment. An O-ring does not blow out in the groove and now we have a good elastomer we do not have problems. The red rubber is a carry-over from the old timers when the flanges were flat and lower pressure systems.

    There you have it folks... There's a reason for everything...
    Bob Bona_4
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    icesailor said:

    But the Neanderthals held sway. A really good supplier would stock flange gaskets from 3/4" to 1 1/2" IPS. With the 3/4" usually drying out in the box and being useless, Of course, the supply houses stock only what is asked for, and they don't stock the proper round gaskets.

    Personally, I do not see how you can expect any durability with a flat gasket when placed on a surface that has a huge groove for an "o-ring". That flange was designed to use the "o-ring". It does not have sufficient surface area near the two bolt holes to work over the long term with a flat gasket.

    I'm curious if Taco even supports the use of a flat gasket for such an application on this flange.
    Which is my point. If you think that that is the only red rubber gasket I ever saw, you'd be wrong. Notice the modern/new aftermarket flanges with ball valves. There were 6 on that installation that was less than 10 years old. Every one was leaking. I'm not making it up that I had to special order the correct gaskets if I needed to replace a leaker. It was replace the whole circulator, or replace the gasket. I'd be standing at the counter and some guy would have a box with 6 circulators and two boxes of aftermarket red rubber gaskets. No one gave a crap. I once saw a place where someone replaced a 4 bolt flange circulator, left the factory black one in the box, and made a new gasket out of red rubber, hole punch and all.

    If you see a Weil-Mclain boiler from *66 on to a WGO, the plate is leaking, and there is a red rubber gasket showing, they didn't use the supplied black O-Ring gasket.

    Now that I am retired, I won't get to point out that Taco has an issue with that red rubber for gaskets on heat. "But EVERYONE does it like that". Just because "everyone else" does it wrong, doesn't mean that everyone else needs to do it wrong.

    I was in Webb one morning. There was a guy that does a lot of work. Buying 6- 007's. And a box of 1 1/4" red rubber gaskets. So, I asked him what he was going to do with the proper black O-Rings seeing as how he wasn't going to be using them. He said that he always used the red ones but I couldn't have the black ones because he was saving them. For what? Until they dry out and crack?

    Like Steamhead says, you can't fix stupid. Or is it ignorance.
    Aaron_in_Mainekcopp
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    SWEI said:

    This would be so much easier if we just used the standard "G union" like they do in most of the rest of the world.

    Perpendicular is easier to assemble in tight quarters. It seems there's always one that's "wrong" when you get down to the last bits on a tight install.

    What is a "Standard G Union"?
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    The threaded fittings you see on many internal boiler pumps and solar pumping stations. They're also used on manifolds, 4-way valves and hydro separators over there. Truly a beautiful thing, since you can mate any manufacturer's half union to another half union -- and they seal properly.

    Unlike here where every manufacturer has their own special thread so nothing fits.
    RobG
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    SWEI said:

    The threaded fittings you see on many internal boiler pumps and solar pumping stations. They're also used on manifolds, 4-way valves and hydro separators over there. Truly a beautiful thing, since you can mate any manufacturer's half union to another half union -- and they seal properly.

    Unlike here where every manufacturer has their own special thread so nothing fits.

    Can you show a picture of an example? I can't envision it. Unless you are talking about how you connect manifolds together.

  • Steve_210
    Steve_210 Member Posts: 646
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    Perpendicular I could never understand why they were Perlow but I started my working life in Europe where we have the unions. I think this is what SWIE is referring to
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    I'd still like to see a photo of one.
  • wogpa67
    wogpa67 Member Posts: 238
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    I believe this is what SWEI is talking about.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,266
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    Union style pump bodies are much easier to work with, a nice clean look, and any any mounting orientation possible. It really solves a lot of issues and crossing of brands for replacement work. It simplifies fitting connections also, sweat, press, threaded.

    I suspect changing the US market to union bodied circs would be a lot like getting the US to go to the metric system.

    There are a few different union sizes, keep in mind.

    I've used flat EPDM gaskets on all my flanged circ installs, regardless of the brand, for at least 20 years now, never any issues. It needs to be quality EPDM, and care not to over tighten.

    I bought around 5000 of them back in 94 when I had the MAXROHR brass flange business, still using up that batch :)

    My suggestion for the Viridian would be a brighter or different color display. Compared to the competitors it's much harder to read.




    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    kcopp
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    @Hot rod:

    Those gaskets are better than the red ones, but if that gasket has been installed on a US circulator with the O-Ring groove, if you look just right, you can see where the channel is for the O-Ring. If you are going to use that black flange gasket, you should also use the O-Ring gasket. Because it fills the channel with a gasket so it doesn't fill with water and leak out the other the other side by the bolt holes. You need something to fill up that channel.

    If you have a Weil-McLain WTGO boiler (tankless) and you don't properly prepare the plate when you install it, and it leaks, you will probably have to replace the entire coil. If you buy a replacement coil from Everhot in Boston, they send you a new coil with a red rubber gasket. Which will leak, pronto when it dries out. The blacl O-Ring gasket is the same as the one that seals the sections in the block. Of you buy a WTGO, they come with the plate only. Sometimes, they send you a heater without the ring. You can not purchase the ring gasket from Weil-McLain without purchasing a new plate and new bolts. - than $100. I owned a lot of plates. I used to put the O-Ring gasket in place to fill the void, bed it in high temp. RTV and use a black rubber gasket. It would still leak. Not as quickly as a red rubber one.

    If you look to the left side of the gasket you posted, you can see how close to the bolt hole the outside edge of the shoulder is.

    You posted a 1" or 1 1/4" gasket. Compare that to a standard OTC red gasket. The black hole might be slightly. But if you use a 1 1/2? gasket, it won't cover the channel.

    I posted a leaker I replaced and you can see visually how the gasket doesn't cover. I had to cut the bolts off, clean the rust and debris off the old flange, and replace the circulator.

    Look at a Wilo. All Califfi flanges fit Wilo's. And every other circulator that is using O-Ring gaskets. All circulators with O-Rings don't accept flat gaskets. If the only sixe you used were 1", you can get away with it. That's what you are doing. Getting away with it.

    Not that you and anyone else that is aware, you will notice how many circulator flanges are coupled with red rubber gaskets. And most of them leak. Wilo's don't leak because the gaskets are over 1/2" wide from the hole to the end.

    That's all. I could give one now. I'll never have to fix another one that was installed by another.

  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
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    Personally like the taco isolation flanges but please trry and hide the made in china.Anyway you can erase it or make it here
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,833
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    I like the swivel flange like Wilo has and maybe I got it on sale at RE. Michel cause it was priced the same or a bit lower then the Grundfos.
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
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    The flat red gaskets are sold at home depot….Me I never liked them…Taco who I like, sends gaskets with there residintual circs, crazy not to use them…You can’t go wrong following the manf specs….
    icesailor
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
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    Thrush was using unions decades ago. They were nice to work with.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
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    I have switched to the full flange black "Gator" gaskets years ago with zero problems. The orange gaskets have clay in their make up, so no wonder why the don't last, unless it's the old school gaskets that had cheese cloth inside
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    I have switched to the full flange black "Gator" gaskets years ago with zero problems. The orange gaskets have clay in their make up, so no wonder why the don't last, unless it's the old school gaskets that had cheese cloth inside

    There you go. Using something that the designers, engineers and manufacturers never intended to be used. But some know better. Some may have found that if you use the manufacturers supplied gasket AND the unsupported flat gasket, they don't leak. Why not just use the provided gasket? Because it works better.

    So, Steve from Taco, there's my point. All those leaking Taco gaskets with the red rubber gaskets that leak, are being installed on your products that are causing premature pump failures.

    Once you realize it is being done, you will notice it wherever you go. Those that use HD & Lowes as their supply house, get them from there. If Taco, B&G, Grundfos and all the other pump manufacturers wanted you to use those unsupplied flat gaskets, they wouldn't go to the expense of milling those grooves in the circulator body and supplying a O-Ring.

    Wilo is way ahead because the gasket face is cast. There is no machining of the face. And that big wide gasket precludes "Experts" from deciding they know better than the manufacturers.

    Wilo comes with a gasket in the pump box. If you buy their specialty flanges, you get more. So you get a Two-fer. Spares. You don't have to special order their standard gaskets. You want installers using 1940's technology on your 2015 technology equipment?

    Hatterasguykcopp
  • AlCorelliNY
    AlCorelliNY Member Posts: 63
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    Perpendicular.
    But I like the spinners on the Bumblebees.
    Al Corelli

  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
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    Wilo makes a great gasket. The thickness may also be the key to longevity
    kcopp
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
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    Taco "O" rings whether they were cork or rubber were the pits Ice, that is why many resorted to using both ring and flange gaskets
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,266
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    There is no way the ring gasket that ships with the Grundfos circs works with the Iso-flanges Grundfos sells. You must use the flat gasket included in the box and they seal just fine.

    The flat gaskets actually provide more sealing surface to the flanges than the ring gasket when you look at the imprint.

    The seal is between the pump and the groove, I don't see how water gets into the groove if the ring gasket is eliminated?

    Use the ring gasket and flat gasket, but it does increase the overall length and it's not easy to get into a replacement application.

    The bolts position and hold the flat gaskets centered just fine, I have had no leaks or gasket failure with flat gaskets on Grundfos.

    Now Armstrong and Wilo have a much larger groove and gasket, flat gaskets are not so good on those.

    If you stick with what the manufacturers ship and include in the box, you should be fine.

    The red flat gaskets I remember, like the ones Clean Burn ships had a much larger hole and did not offer much sealing surface, wrong gasket for the pump, besides being really soft and easy to distort when tightening.







    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    billtwocase
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    edited March 2015
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    Ok , this is not likely to make me any more "points" with Taco ,

    Buh how about sending HV gaskets with the HV Flanges and take the hassle out of finding material to make flange to flange "Unions" . I like the flange that fits the pump and the gaskets.
    I like the bumblbees go any where dial-able flange and rocky mounts sweat flange that does the same.
    I admit , ice, i too have used the red and black gaskets that fit the groves of the circ . one thing that i do also is , i coat one side of a gasket with teflon paste or industrial blue magic or this blue mega lock , that way when you break a flange set one side will always stick to something and allow you to put the flanges back together without having to re invent the wheel.
    Union fittings are great when they happen to match what you are doing. far as i know one size does not fit all applications.
    Weezbo.
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
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    I have attended several classes at the taco factory and was extremely impressed withe there dedication to help make this a better industry...john barber is a great instructor...the employees seemed happy. Besides I like like fact they are an American company
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
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    I also like Boeing as to opposed to airbus. Flown by ex. Military pilots.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    Wilo makes a great gasket. The thickness may also be the key to longevity


    You didn't notice how wide they are in relation to all the other square O-Ring circulator gaskets? That's the secret of any longevity.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited March 2015
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    j a said:

    I have attended several classes at the taco factory and was extremely impressed withe there dedication to help make this a better industry...john barber is a great instructor...the employees seemed happy. Besides I like like fact they are an American company

    I've never said a bad word about Taco. I used their products/circulators for years. Almost exclusively. My gripe isn't with them, its people that still buy red rubber gaskets and leave the round gasket out. Which then often leaks. The black runner flange shaped gaskets will work fine if you also fill the groove with the round gasket. That's how they leak. Water getting in the groove and rusting out the space, causing a leak. Why doesn't someone post a photo of a Wilo?

    The photo posted by HR shows the problem when you don't use the round ring. You can see the protrusion in the gasket where the channel was.

    http://s3.supplyhouse.com/manuals/1262965172825/23303_PROD_FILE.pdf

    Just think how much Taco could save by eliminating the machining process on their pumps by eliminating that groove. The inside wall is only to support the ring from falling in when under too much pressure.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
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    Here ya go Ice. I have also included a pic of B&G 100 flange gaskets that are almost identical to Taco, yet lasted much longer, so the width really doesn't have much to do with longevity.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited March 2015
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    Here ya go Ice. I have also included a pic of B&G 100 flange gaskets that are almost identical to Taco, yet lasted much longer, so the width really doesn't have much to do with longevity.

    Bill, you completely miss my point altogether. 100%.

    Try putting that red rubber flange gasket that you can purchase by the box fill down the road at Webb or SNE. Fit either one to that WILO circulator. You CAN'T. Put that same POS gasket on any other grooved face circulator. It fits fine. Except that it might leak.

    In your travel around the land of the Cod, you must see a lot of leaking circulators. If you see ones with a gasket showing between flange surfaces, it has the wrong gasket in it. Like in the photo I posted earlier.

    You sure that the gasket on the floor beside the Wilo pump is the correct one? Unless it is a photo lens issue, it looks a little short in the OD width department. The normally go to the shoulder cast into the circulator. Where they don't roll up or slide out when the pump is being hateful while you connect the bolts.

  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
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    Are these the ones you're talking about, @icesailor ?
    The flanges and thick gaskets in the pic are from Wilo and the thinner gaskets are the ones that came with the grundfos pump.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two