What else can I try!!!! UGH!!! LOCKOUT>

ffheat

Hi guys,
OK, we've got a Weil McLain Boiler that every few days (just around 3) goes into lockout. we hit the reset and it fires back up for another 3 days.
We cleaned it with proper spacing at the electrodes. Blew back the oil line just incase, changed the primary, changed the motor, changed the cad cell eye, checked tube in power vent and all connections.
EVERYTHING seems to be ok???
The new primary that we put on tells the reason for lockout unless it does not know. IE lockout, check cad cell.
When it does not know it just says No Ignition. That is the only code we get.

If you might have an idea for us to try PLEASE advise.
Thank You in advance!

GW

What's the draft like?

ffheat

I dont have a meter , the flame looks nice and clean.
I'll go get one.
What is your thought on that?
The fact that it lasts for 3 days everytime is killing me

Ironman

What's the model of the boiler? The make and model of the burner?

Were the nozzle and filter replaced? What size nozzle? What's your pump pressure and combustion readings? Draft has already been asked, but is needed.

It sounds as though you're a home owner whose attempted to repair this by changing out parts. Is that correct? If so, we'll try to help you, but the basic burner and combustion info was the place to start and that info is needed to attempt a diagnosis.

rick in Alaska

Could be transformer, pump coupler (not likely though), or even the solenoid on the fuel pump. My bet would be transformer though.
Rick

icesailor

Hatterasguy said:

I recently had a similar situation with a Beckett. Would randomly lockout every couple of weeks. Wasn't the cad cell. Turned out to be an intermittent transformer.

As long as it wasn't carbon buildup on the retention cone, it can be a transformer. But the carbon build up can do that. Especially if you have osculating wind and draft. It can suck the spark out and short out on the carbon deposits.

I've seen a lot of bad motors do that too. They don't start but the control drops it out on safety before the motor locks out. When you come to TS it, it starts right up.

ffheat

Transformer checks out 100 percent (screwdriver test)
When cleaned cone was checked and fine,
Filter, strainer and nozzel changed.
Yes just take care of mine and dads boiler.
I will hopefully be able to get those numbers out to you today.

Thanks guys!

ffheat

Ok,
Weil mclain gold pwtg0-4
It has ao smith power venter model f48r80c77
Has a small damper on front.
There is a fresh air intake (fresh air, air boot)

No damper on pipe due to space not being there
Nozzel is 1.00 80b
Draft was -7 over fire
-12 at damper in powerventer
If damper on venter (could) stay all the open it reads -2 over fire.
The primary reads running ohms at right around 900
Checked cone again and is fine.
Transformer again checks out 100percent.
It is an older model so I am going to change that in hopes.
And until anyone else has some ideas what we can do.

Marz

Is it a transformer or an Ignitor?

ffheat

Ignitor.
Cuts off after proven flame

Bob Bona_4

Check your pressure prover hose and tube in the power venter, if it has them. Crusties like to build up and cause intermittent lockouts.

ffheat

Tubes are clear

Bob Bona_4

Pressure switch hang up?

STEVEusaPA

I know it's a Power Venter, but -.07 over the fire? Way too much draft. Probably sucking the flame off the head. Combined with the fact that the spark from the ignitor isnt constant. Btw, screwdriver test doesn't 100% prove anything, and cant be done/used on some newer ignitors.
Can the damper be fixed/corrected to fix the draft? I personally feel you're changing too many parts and not using the proper diagnostic tools and methods.
You can also get some clues when you reset the burner. Run it for about 15 seconds, hold down the reset, take a look (carefully) into a partially opened inspection door. Still burning or cutting right off?
Also, double check all the wiring connections--tug on those wire nuts.
Which primary control is on there? Depending on the model, you should be able to scroll thru the last few cycles and see whats going on-ohms, volts, etc.

DZoro

What does the oil look like? Have you treated the tank?

ffheat

The oil looks nice and clear. We blew the tank back just incase.

Steve, All I can do is change parts, no one is able to give me a diagnosis. I am taking all suggestions and doing anything that will help.
Ive been doing what my local guys are suggesting as well as anyone else that has been in the heating business.
Parts are not that expensive And the info I am getting is from the very guys that would come here for a much bigger price then the parts.
Now my one friend in the business loaned me his diagnostic kit so I can answer all questions from this forum.

The Draft is very high I admit but the only way to get it down to that -2 would be to hang a fishing weight from the damper. (Now I know that is not the right thing to do.

The flame shuts right down when interrupted.
The ohms were running about 8-900 ohms, I changed the cad eye and it is down to 400.
Been over the wiring 10 times thing was loose.

Yesterday It happened to go into lockout while I was sitting right in front of it (Great right????)
Was not prepared for it for I was just wondering what was wrong. but
I heard the thermostat click through the aquastat,,,,,,,,
I am not sure if I heard the primary do anything or not as of clicks,
it went into lockout.
Any Ideas. (all wires are tight) And nothing wired differently then the past 10 years it has been running.
So we are trying to do any research we can at this point.

Once again to summarize babble,
It locked out after click of thermostat.-
Not sure if Box did anything but it is a new box. I am assuming last box locked out same time.

Any Ideas???

ffheat

PS, Steve,
It is a Honeywell primary.
tell omhs wile running.
if it was a voltage thing, I know the box would display lockout voltage.
It just says no ignition and that means the box does not know what went wrong. (Straight from the Honeywell guys)

Biggest clue we have now is when it locked out.

icesailor

You CAN'T have that kind of draft over the fire with a Beckett AFG.

It MUST be operated with a draft control. The PV'er may be too big, and you have no draft control. If it is a Honeywell electronic control. it can drop out just by the flame pulling away from the end of the burner.

You need to wire a Mult-tester into the FF circuit and watch the Ohms to see if they are going up and down.

Weil-McLains don't use the FF on the burner controller. They are jumped out. The thermostat is wired into the control on the burner. Is it wired as per the I/O manual?

I also don't think that it is acceptable to run that or any other oil boiler without a draft control. You have to have a way to control the draft od the Power Venter (PV). I've had them where I had to install two Barometric's to control high draft.

IMO, draft for you has become a major issue and the I/O manuals for the PV'er and the boiler weren't followed.

As far as the "Screwdriver Test", as close as that one comes is that when new, out of the box, you should be able to almost draw a spark to the other terminal. After that, it's all downhill. How far you can draw a spark before it breaks away is a matter of conjecture. It has more to do with experience than set rules.

And a Beckett under those high draft conditions without a Barometric, needs the ignition running all the time.

IMO.

JStar

Draft control. Combustion test. That would be the minimal starting point.

Ironman

Listen to what Ice and Steve have said: way too much draft. It needs a barometric damper that's properly set.

ffheat

Yes I get all that and agree. I didn't install it.
Space limited in a crawl space is why there is no damper I would assume.

Here is the big issue ,
It has been this way for 10 years,
So it is not going to all of a sudden be this huge draft problem. (I could be wrong)
Bigger issue,
If it goes into lockout like it did yesterday in front of me,
It is before any flame in turn draft is no issue.

We are leaning towards some sort of saftey mechanism maybe?
Could it be aquastat?
Some sensor in power venter going every now and then??

Please keep trying guys.
Thank you

JStar

What are your combustion numbers?

ffheat

Without proper draft,
What is that going to tell ya?
Just asking?

JStar

If the nozzle, pump pressure, and air band is set close to correct. And if the boiler sections are clean.

icesailor

@ffheat:

I feel your pain. I felt that pain on a similar job with a PV. I felt it for years. Your story made me feel that Deja Vu (SP) all over again. Right up to it finally going off on me while I was standing there. That was the key to resolution.

What REALLY frigs them up if you have a modern control that will recycle is that it might be in the post purge cycle when it drops out and re-tries. Because it can't restart until Post Purge ends, you get a hard lock out. And you need a lot of make up air if you are running .07 draft over the fire. A peculiar thing that can happen if you don't have enough draft and no Barometric is that the PV'er tries to get make up air through the burner while running and sucks the flame back and forth. Especially on a cold and windy day.

Try this.

Loosen the screws on the FF terminals on the burner control. Remove one yellow wire On the other yellow terminal, put one test lead on your Ohm Meter under the screw and tighten with the yellow wire still attached. You then have to hold the other yellow wire on the screw to get the burner to start and immediately, slip the other lead under the screw and tighten it up. If it is a modern electronic control, you only have 15 seconds to do it. Once you have the two all connected, you can read the ohms off the meter when it is running. Any changes should show.

After writing all of the above, it is easier if you take the two yellow leads off the FF terminals and wire them directly to your Multi-meter. Leave one side of a jumper wire on one FF terminal, and as soon as it starts, connect the jumper to the other FF terminal. The burner will NOT start if the FF terminals are jumped before you turn on the power. As soon as the burner starts and gets flame, connect the other side of the jumper. The control thinks it is "seeing" a flame. If the burner stops, it will not start as long as the jumper is in place. That's a built in safety in the control. If the "eye" thinks it is seeing a flame before start up, and it isn't, its a bad eye or something in that circuit. So it has to either not start or would stop normally if a flame was lost. If it didn't, and there was no flame when the eye thought there was one, it would pump the oil tank dry.

If you understand what I am suggesting, there are all kinds or ways to do this and get information. Like connect the Ohm Meter to the FF terminals when the burner is running with the eye connected and measure how high you can go before it locks out.

Is this a Scorched Air furnace? Check to see if you have a cracked HX.

This didn't start just before you got there. This is a long, on-going problem that no one else could figure out. The first clue of the bad installation is the lack of a Barometric. You HAVE to have one. No exceptions.

Is the galvanizing all melted off the Smoke pipe? How hot is the exhaust temperature?

rick in Alaska

You can put a "neutral point adjuster"on the power venter, per Firedragons site, to get draft closer. Still need the barometric damper to fine tune it though.
Does your cad cell wiring go directly to the cad cell, or through the power venter? Have you checked the socket for the cad cell? Sometimes the cell is a little loose in the socket, causing lockouts.
Igniters can read good one second, and then be dead just as fast. Usually related to temperature around it. As soon as it cools down, it works fine again.
The fact that you say it locked out when you heard the aquastat "click", but no burner came on, makes me think either the primary control did not send out the proper firing signal to the motor and igniter, or the cad cell circuit is messed up. Could be you have a bad primary, even if it is new.
How exactly it the power venter wired in to the system?
I would think if it is the cad cell circuit, the burner still should have started and then cut out.
A little rambling here, but things to look for. I guess we need to know if it actually did get a thermostat call, the aquastat did get it, if the primary control did get the signal to come on, and if it did send power to burner.
As they say; need more info.
Rick

Patchogue Phil_2

Just throwing it out there..... is there a low water cutoff in the mix? Possibility that the lwco is flakey.

ffheat

No low water cut off.
It has not gone off again since we changed out the cad cell assembly with new cad eye.
if it does again the powerventer is coming off for a really deep clean of all parts.
Could be the reason for the bad draft too.
fan not might be able to reach full speed.
Thanks guys

Unknown

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ffheat

that's funny, But I blew it back 4 times and nothing is in filter.
But still funny. HAAA

Unknown

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billtwocase

great advice, and so eloquently administered

ffheat

yes mr. sludge.
That's been covered.

billtwocase

He's a troll ff. Probably never seen a filter or strainer in his lifetime

ffheat

Now that's funny!

billtwocase

What brand power vent do you have? I have only worked on 2, one would be Field, other is Side Shot. Both have draft adjustments

billtwocase

You mentioned an AO Smith earlier

Unknown

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DZoro

Firefox jacket. Is it clean and sound? It must have good reflection

DZoro

I had something similar a few years back. Changed the chamber and issue solved

ffheat

Its s side shot,
Has a small damper on front.
While it's running if I force the damper all the way open. I get my-2 over the fire.
That's why if it goes out again we are ripping that thing apart for a deep clean.
We are just doing one thing at a time to see what the problem was.

It is still running as of now