Opinions on Fixing the low bidders boiler...

Rich_49

JStar

Only half your business ? Would have figured a higher number , think ours is like 70% fixing others work , 23% repairs to old systems and 7% new work and replacement . Tough to convince anyone other than very smart individuals that you know what you are doing and are worth the extra .

KC_Jones

Just so you all know I am the type of homeowner that tries to educate my fellow homeowners about what is right....sometimes to the point of being a jerk about it. I can't stand cheap especially when it comes to a house. Next to my children this house is the most major investment of my life so why would I cheap out on it? I am on your side do it once do it right or pay the consequences. The true professionals that hang out around this site are the only type of pros any of us should be hiring period. Everyone keep up the great work!

ChrisJ

I always think of one of the guys on here that said he was working at a customer's house on the condensing units on a really hot day. The customer was doing laundry and her dryer's exhaust was blowing right on him so he asked her if she could shut it off until he was done because it was killing him. She told him he'd be ok and left it running.

Not only do the people not want to spend a dime on their HVAC systems, they often don't seem to give a crap about the person working on them either.

KC_Jones

That is generally because some people look down on blue collar people. Something else I hate. My own sister looks down on blue collar to the point of insulting me to my face on occasion. Some people just don't care.

icesailor

@chrisJ:

"" Not only do the people not want to spend a dime on their HVAC systems, they often don't seem to give a crap about the person working on them either. ""

A good plumber friend once said to me about people.

If you dropped dead in front of them and they were going to have Cocktails that Afternoon, they would step over your body to get to the phone to find someone else to come and finish up. Once they found someone and firmed it up that they would drop everything and come immediately, would they go back and check your condition.

Aaron_in_Maine

I don't install customer supplied equipment. But that's not to say I wouldn't make a buck after some knucklehead messed it up. I had one that after it was said and done said he would have paid less if he had hired me to begin with. That feeling can give you some satisfaction.

nicholas bonham-carter

I wonder if he will learn a lesson from this.--NBC

nicholas bonham-carter

KJ, I am sorry you have had problems with your sister, and her view of "blue collar" people. I view the situation as a sort of partnership between me and the person doing the work. I could admire that person, (no matter what his level of expertise was), for how well he did the work. It would also give the opportunity to meet a new person. Maybe I am being naive, but the experiences I have had in renting out apartments, and shops/restaurants/offices have given me the opportunity to meet many different sorts of people-(although, some I would not wish to meet again!). Most relationships have been very enjoyable.
Especially those with various tradesmen who have mastered their craft, from whom I have learned a great deal. The secret is to focus on the similarities between people, (which are many), instead of the differences, and find the common bond.
It's different when you are trained as an engineer, and you look beyond the oil spots on the sleeve..--NBC

j a_2

Me, I would have no problem ,blocking his phone number and email…Refer him to the moonlighters, and side workers…Third times a charm…Never ever install a boiler purchased by a customer….The real supply houses, will only sell to legit lic. people….If they do sell to Harry the homeowner shame on them….Tell that supply house you will now order via the internet and find a different supply house….Its sad there are so many that take this business lightly…..I would rather be an idol fool than a busy fool….

BobC

I started out working for the car wash in HS, I was a jr tech testing plug in boards after high school and then it was into the army and over to Korea where I ran a microwave relay site because i knew more about electronics than anybody else. I found the army a great place to work with people from all over and I found most people had different points of view and you could learn something from them.

After the army it was back to the power supply company where I worked myself up from technician to engineer and finally management. I again found I could learn just as much from the kid in the machine shop as I could the new engineer we just hired.

When my job went to china at the end of the last century, I ended up at the post office repairing mail sorting equipment as a technician, from manager back to the trades. The men I worked with were all very good at their trade and most were willing to show me the tricks of the trade. I was offered a route into management while there but I turned it down because I knew I was only going to be there a few years (8+ years). I started out my working life with a blue collar and finished with a blue collar and I don't regret it one bit.

The tradesmen I've worked with through the years have been knowledgeable and took pride in their work. Almost all of them did great work, they were well worth whatever they got paid.

This country was built on the backs of blue collar tradesmen, we owe them a debt of gratitude for what they do for us. Anybody who does not recognize their contribution is just flaunting their ignorance.

Bob

j a_2

Your never going to stop the moonlighters, side workers , non lic. and non insured, as well as union workers working on the cheap out here….Unless?????

ChrisJ

j a said:

Your never going to stop the moonlighters, side workers , non lic. and non insured, as well as union workers working on the cheap out here….Unless?????

I had someone come work on our steam system the week we bought the house. He was a licensed HVAC specialist and he was also a dangerous joke.

He charged us top dollar and didn't bother to clean the boiler or check the draft. Not to mention he claimed the block was like knew and it was actually rotted and leaking. Shortly after a CO alarm went off and I started doing my own work.

So, money aside, how can a homeowner know when they are getting someone that does quality work?

j a_2

The BBB offers a great checklist for homeowners….Get in writing exactly what he is going to do and hold him accountable for his actions….Request a copy if his insurance and his lic……Read up on your system and find 3 or 4 questions he should be able to answer on the spot….If he pull up in his POV send him down the road……If he rips you off, , become his worst enemy…..hold him accountable….

Mad Dog_2

Depends how bad you need the job. I'm with JohnnyNY, gary , Steamhead and the other wise men here. There is a BIG difference between a client that simply chooses another contractor and one that has a condensending attitude about it. If he is truly humbled now and "on-board," then give him a price to rip everything but the boiler out, sign off on the fact that the boiler is oversized and will waste fuel, and charge him a premium (for pain and suffering [yours] knuckleheadeness, and a bad attitude) You are NOT obligated to bail him out as many clients like this would guilt you in to feeling. noto bene! [latin. "Note well!"] you will now be MARRIED to this oversized monster....till death do we part......it could backfire on you down the road..... they tend to forget that YOU bailed THEM out and tried to save them money. After 30 years in this great trade, I have seen that you usually only screw yourself when you try to
"RESCUE" a bad job and save the client money......
Conversely, If you are NOT desperate, work for folks that actually appreciate your work. As JohnnyNy was implying: Any plumber worth his salt is throwing in boilers around the clock the last month....do you really need this "Trouble?" Mad Dog

GW

Chris, I am curious if there may be some information missing in your description of your experience with the hvac tech. What was the reason for your call to their company?
Gary

Mad Dog_2

Jack's right. Something that could hold up in court. you need a very thorough report detailing the history leading up to this and get signitures. Irrespective of a signed contract and disclaimers, people like this may still haunt you....because they really dont listen very well...and are placating you long enough that YOU!!!! now bear ALL burdens of the problem system. Mad Dog

icesailor

Don't sell yourself short.

Sass & bad attitudes on the part of customers is a billable expense. Use it wisely.

Charge accordingly.

GW

Ice, I'm afraid your statement is geared towards the well-established, secure hvac professional. What's your advice to the less-than-secure trades pro? We have two different points of vies on this thought-provoking thread.

Edited for spelling, ms-use of a contraction

GW

Mad Dog, some us us learn from our mistakes and some of us don't. Isn't that life? The oppressed are kept down, pinned down by the circumstances they refuse to claw their way out of, blaming everthing and everyone around them. The Entitled expect everything on a silver platter.

I know where I am weak, but my strengths keep my head above water. Actually swimming I should say.

That's been my message for Robert, I'd love to beseech thee and encourage a different mindset.

Gary

ChrisJ

GW said:

Chris, I am curious if there may be some information missing in your description of your experience with the hvac tech. What was the reason for your call to their company?

Gary

Hi Gary,
First night I fired the boiler up I had horrible water hammer so we called them as they claimed to be steam experts.

He charged us for replacing the wet return which was not the problem, and also recommended a service on the oil burner and boiler cleaning as well as replacing four radiator vents.

In the end, I ended up with a dirty boiler, plugged flue, a new wet return I didn't need and four varivalve vents which I later gave to my neighbor for free.

What really annoyed me was I asked him about the draft as the barometric damper always slammed shut when the burner fired up and stayed shut. I knew nothing about any of this at the time so I wanted to know everything was working good.


Sadly, I did NOT listen to Steamhead and go after the guy like I should have. It's been four years now so kind of late, but I do regret not doing something. I ended up doing other things, forgot about it, etc.

GW

Chris, that is indeed a sad srory. We've all been there, I could share some as a business owner too (I pay people/firms outside of my business to make my operation work). I'm sorry for your dismal and expensive experience.

Gary

BobC

Moving into a new house is always a crapshoot. Thirty five years ago I moved into this palace with the knowledge the boiler was 30+ years old but I was familiar enough with steam to know it seemed reasonably setup. I moved in in the middle of February and the heat worked without any real issues.

That system worked reasonably well for 15 years and never needed any repair (why I love a steam system that is set up right), I did have it cleaned and tuned every summer. That boiler died and it's replacement only needed repair once (bad primary control) in it's 17 year life (oil tank was failing so i switched to gas). i had the flu at that time so i didn't work on it myself. The guy who fixed it was as useless as a boar hog with teats, he replaced the control and mixed up the cad cell and thermostat wires, he had to call in his boss who told him to rewire it and then tried to charge me a fortune for his own stupidity - I called the company and told them to adjust the bill or meet me in small claims court. That was the last time anybody from that company ever stepped foot in my cellar.

If i have a problem with my boiler I can usually diagnose and repair it myself, I've replaced pressuretrols, cleaned stack switches (on the old Delco), replaced ignition transformers, and changed out air vents. The level of incompetence out there is just amazing, any homeowner who does not understand steam is ripe for the plucking.

The pro's on this board are far and above the cream of the crop.

Bob

GW

Bob, somewhat of a pessimistic view, most contractors are much more competent than you illude. Hire a well-established company with proper experience and your success rate skyrockets. People don't understand heating/ hvac is very vast with many levels of skill sets required for different tasks. I bet the average steam guy can't check static pressure on a duct system. But you would never know that. The average ac tech doesn't know what A dimension means. It's all relative, I'm sorry for your dismal experience.

BobC

I realize there are a lot of good competent tradesmen out there but it's not easy for a homeowner to differentiate among them unless they have recommendations from neighbors.

I'm lucky because i can repair most of what might go wrong and on a steam system that really isn't much.

The sun is coming out in Beantown, time to go out and chip some ice.

Bob

ChrisJ

j a said:

Me, I would have no problem ,blocking his phone number and email…Refer him to the moonlighters, and side workers…Third times a charm…Never ever install a boiler purchased by a customer….The real supply houses, will only sell to legit lic. people….If they do sell to Harry the homeowner shame on them….Tell that supply house you will now order via the internet and find a different supply house….Its sad there are so many that take this business lightly…..I would rather be an idol fool than a busy fool….

J A, I don't like this comment at all.
In America, at least, in my town I have the right to install my own boiler with the correct permits and inspections.

I also did far better than many licensed "pros".

If a supply house wants to charge me more than their repeat customers, fine, I get that and I respect it. But don't EVER tell me I'm not allowed, or shouldn't be allowed to buy it because I'm not licensed to install it in my own home. Especially after the money, and time I wasted dealing with a "professional". A "licensed professional" that damn near killed me and my family.

KC_Jones

If the supply house is supposed to be the plumbing police then shouldn't the inferior licensed people be reported to them and then the supply house doesn't sell to them either? I can send them a list of hacks in my area. I respect people who do good work...I don't blindly respect you because you have a piece of paper that says you are SUPPOSED to know how to do good work. I work with engineers daily they all have a piece of paper...and 50% of them are useless.

Dave0176

My saying is this, "I cannot make people spend their money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely"

For you homeowners out there probably the best way to tell a good contractor is ask for references, see pics of previous jobs. I offer this to all proposed customers. As we say on here "a picture is worth a thousand words".

icesailor

@GW:
I understand the conundrum.

Those of us that can fix it, can install it. Those of us like that will take longer to install it so we don't have to go back and fix it. When you add in the time that it takes to fix it, we were a cheap date.

Everywhere you go, you see that so called "experts" are inferring that we are all trying to rip everyone off with high prices. When manufacturing was wiped out in the USA and that segment was moved to Asia, the unemployed managers looked for another source of livelihood. 40 years ago, we supplied whatever was needed. We made money on mark-ups for our products. That ran the businesses, We didn't depend on labor to run businesses, We could employ and train people. Then, everyone saw our trade as a source of revenue. Everyone wants to supply the material so they can get the money. "Contractor/crooks buy the stock and want everyone to work for labor, cheap labor. So cheap that what I was paid as an employee in 1976 as a licensed Master Plumber, is about the same is a helper/apprentice is paid today.

A continuation of another Heatinghelp.com lock-up and crash. That locked up the site, but the site saves the uncompleted message.

When I say "Contractors", I talk about guys that never sawed a board or soldered a pipe, went to college to be an architect and switched to Construction Management, go into the General Contracting Business, purchase all the materials needed for a job, mark up for profit, all the materials, and look for monkeys that work for peanuts to install the equipment. Then blame the labor installers for the fact that their wrong and improperly designed equipment doesn't work.

j a_2

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

Me, I would have no problem ,blocking his phone number and email…Refer him to the moonlighters, and side workers…Third times a charm…Never ever install a boiler purchased by a customer….The real supply houses, will only sell to legit lic. people….If they do sell to Harry the homeowner shame on them….Tell that supply house you will now order via the internet and find a different supply house….Its sad there are so many that take this business lightly…..I would rather be an idol fool than a busy fool….

J A, I don't like this comment at all.
In America, at least, in my town I have the right to install my own boiler with the correct permits and inspections.

I also did far better than many licensed "pros".

If a supply house wants to charge me more than their repeat customers, fine, I get that and I respect it. But don't EVER tell me I'm not allowed, or shouldn't be allowed to buy it because I'm not licensed to install it in my own home. Especially after the money, and time I wasted dealing with a "professional". A "licensed professional" that damn near killed me and my family.

No problem on you not liking it….But here in my town and my state it is against the law for a non lic. individual to install a boiler…Ma. general law chapter 142…..It as well voids any warranty…..If you look at an IO manual the manf. states exactly that……Some states you can drive and text, some you can’t because its against the law….I am sure if one wasn’t driven by the dollar, he would seek out the best most competent, installer…For safety sake….On the installer side of things if they are sub par,they get weeded out pretty quickly…If they cause damage the are responsible….Whats even happening up here is when people are spending there hard earned money to buy a house they expect the recent remodeling and such done by code, usually meaning proper permits filed by lic. workers..Mr lawyer or mr. homeowner goes and checks the building permits on all the nice remodeling job….Then thy find out no permits had been filed….it can and often does get real ugly….Like walls being opened up and red tags on gas and water lines….This is a great site and is here to help people, i don’t feel it should be a site to rant on someone and to paint us all with the same brush…I for one am proud, of my professionalism…Not perfect, as no one really is, but very confident….This is my opinion

ChrisJ

j a said:

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

Me, I would have no problem ,blocking his phone number and email…Refer him to the moonlighters, and side workers…Third times a charm…Never ever install a boiler purchased by a customer….The real supply houses, will only sell to legit lic. people….If they do sell to Harry the homeowner shame on them….Tell that supply house you will now order via the internet and find a different supply house….Its sad there are so many that take this business lightly…..I would rather be an idol fool than a busy fool….

J A, I don't like this comment at all.
In America, at least, in my town I have the right to install my own boiler with the correct permits and inspections.

I also did far better than many licensed "pros".

If a supply house wants to charge me more than their repeat customers, fine, I get that and I respect it. But don't EVER tell me I'm not allowed, or shouldn't be allowed to buy it because I'm not licensed to install it in my own home. Especially after the money, and time I wasted dealing with a "professional". A "licensed professional" that damn near killed me and my family.

No problem on you not liking it….But here in my town and my state it is against the law for a non lic. individual to install a boiler…Ma. general law chapter 142…..It as well voids any warranty…..If you look at an IO manual the manf. states exactly that……Some states you can drive and text, some you can’t because its against the law….I am sure if one wasn’t driven by the dollar, he would seek out the best most competent, installer…For safety sake….On the installer side of things if they are sub par,they get weeded out pretty quickly…If they cause damage the are responsible….Whats even happening up here is when people are spending there hard earned money to buy a house they expect the recent remodeling and such done by code, usually meaning proper permits filed by lic. workers..Mr lawyer or mr. homeowner goes and checks the building permits on all the nice remodeling job….Then thy find out no permits had been filed….it can and often does get real ugly….Like walls being opened up and red tags on gas and water lines….This is a great site and is here to help people, i don’t feel it should be a site to rant on someone and to paint us all with the same brush…I for one am proud, of my professionalism…Not perfect, as no one really is, but very confident….This is my opinion

I most certainly didn't paint anyone with the same brush. I have the utmost respect for many on this forum.

My point was just because someone is licensed doesn't make them good and that as an American should have the right to maintain my own home with the proper permits and inspections. I also don't feel it was a rant.

My area allows this and if it ever changed I would move to one that did.

ChrisJ

@Robert O'Connor,

What did you end up doing?

Jack

JA makes a valid point on the building permit process. When we sold our MA home it was a significant point brought up by the buyer in order to reduce price. I had the permits and as a result pushed back pretty strongly. The thing is, you the seller have to certify this and I would be the last one to suggest that a buyer would come after a seller once they have been in the house. I mean who would do that?

icesailor

"" We see this all the time on the wall and I'm a bit surprised that you don't realize it. ""

Not likely in Massachusetts. You can't control Third Worlders illegally converting 3 Decker's into 6+ family illegal apartments in Boston, and you can go to any of the really bug inner city HD's where being Trilingual is a requirement for employment, but when there is a sale, the BS gets found and someone pays dearly. There's nothing in any code that says that a homeowner can't repair and maintain something. When Inspectional Services comes to see the hard wired Smoke/CO detectors, and look for installation locations, and see folks crawling out from under doors like rats, the Code Enforcement personnel won't be far behind.

Have you ever seen an electric water heater where there was no hot water? You get there, and some handyperson had plugged the relief valve. Because the relief valve was not tight because the test lever stem hole isn't tight, it kept leaking on top of the water heater. After a while, it rotted a home on the top, fan down and shorted out the top thermostat. The handyperson didn't know how to troubleshoot electric water heaters. If the Handyperson accepts anything of value for his shoddy work, he is engaged in the business. Your unlicensed competition.

Everyone has seen the piece on Mythbusters on exploding water heaters. How a water heater can explode if the water gets too hot and the water heater turns to steam. Mythbusters didn't carry it out to its conclusion. Water boils at 212 degrees at no pressure. If 50# of pressure boils at 350' (Square root of the pressure X 14 + 198= BP) the water in the tank has to reach 350'+ to convert to steam and expansion X 1200+. But if someone or something lowers the water pressure (like opening a faucet) and the pressure drops to 40#, instant vaporization. That blows up houses with occupants.

I walked into a Hotel in Rocky Mount, NC at 12:30 AM and smelled something. A few minutes later, my personal CO detector went off at 12 PPM and rising. No one cared. Not even the Rocky Mount FD. It was the problem of others. The minimum wage maintenance person. Regulations are supposed to protect us all from each other.

No anyone with "Post Polio Syndrome"? That's what happens to people that had Polio when they were children, were able to learn to walk, and as they get older, the muscles they depended on no longer have the strength to do their job and they become crippled now. Most here don't even remember what life was like Pre-Polio vaccines. Or have seen an iron lung.

nicholas bonham-carter

My vote in this is for Robert to keep to his original bid, and plan. The owner can remove the over-sized monster, and use it somewhere else where it will fit.
Trying to make the wrong boiler work, especially with this person will be a mistake.
The alternative would be to direct the owner here so he can see how difficult, and exacting the selection, and installation of a boiler is.--NBC

Fred

I said early on in this thread that a Supply house should be able to sell to anyone who is willing to pay the price. I got a "Dislike" from that response from one of the PRO's on this site but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Everyone has a perspective and is entitled to share it. However, the bottom line is even in Ma. we see lots of botched up jobs, done by licensed people and the Inspection Process is equally flawed. The whole purpose of requiring permits seems more a revenue generating proposition than one of looking out for the homeowner. Shame on that process and anyone who decides I shouldn't be able to install and care for my own home and family.
EDIT: I'm sure I'll get more Dislikes for these comments but "So Be It"

icesailor

@Fred:

"" I said early on in this thread that a Supply house should be able to sell to anyone who is willing to pay the price. ""

When I went into business in 1976, where I was located, you almost had to get permission from the competition to get a top tier wholesaler to sell to you and get a contractors discount. I avoided buying from wholesalers that sold to my competition, the Homies. I didn't care who the bought from. But Sears and other wholesalers who were exclusive, always got my business.

They had signs at the counter saying that " Or professional Contractors come first". Nothing more annoying than standing at a counter waiting for service with three Homey's standing in line in front wanting to match and buy an obsolete toilet ballcock and having to wait to pick up a 3/4" watts 30# relief valve. And the Homey gets all pissy when the counter guy calls me out ahead of all the homey's. I'm doing $5,000 to $20,000 worth of monthly sales and Home is wanting to buy a $10.00 part.

Fred

icesailor said:

@Fred:

"" I said early on in this thread that a Supply house should be able to sell to anyone who is willing to pay the price. ""

When I went into business in 1976, where I was located, you almost had to get permission from the competition to get a top tier wholesaler to sell to you and get a contractors discount. I avoided buying from wholesalers that sold to my competition, the Homies. I didn't care who the bought from. But Sears and other wholesalers who were exclusive, always got my business.

They had signs at the counter saying that " Or professional Contractors come first". Nothing more annoying than standing at a counter waiting for service with three Homey's standing in line in front wanting to match and buy an obsolete toilet ballcock and having to wait to pick up a 3/4" watts 30# relief valve. And the Homey gets all pissy when the counter guy calls me out ahead of all the homey's. I'm doing $5,000 to $20,000 worth of monthly sales and Home is wanting to buy a $10.00 part.

When Homie can't flush his toilet, that is more important to him as it would be to a Pro who is picking up the same part to fix a Customer's toilet. That Pro still has a place to go crap, at the end of the day

icesailor

When I go to buy at a legitimate supply house, and the DIY'ers have precedence over their commercial customers that pay their way, I'll be taking my business elsewhere. To someone who wants and appreciates my business.

ChrisJ

icesailor said:

When I go to buy at a legitimate supply house, and the DIY'ers have precedence over their commercial customers that pay their way, I'll be taking my business elsewhere. To someone who wants and appreciates my business.

Along with price discounts for their commercial customers I also agree this is fair.

I have no problem with them taking care of their bread and butter before me. Same goes for when they have limited stock of a part.

Mark N

Ice, it's now 2015 according to my calendar. There have been huge shifts in how business is conducted. Either change with it or you're out of business. Also this little thing called the internet was invented. There no longer are any secrets. Your local supply house is in competition with some big players. Much is available on line with free shipping to boot. Also aren't you retired now?