Best Air Vents

NJHomeowner

I have a home with steam heat and have a few questions. Here's the background on my home:

100 year old home, boiler is a Peerless installed in 1987 and was recently converted to gas. There's 11 cast iron radiators, 5 on 1st floor, 5 on 2nd, 1 in attic and a baseboard for the steam on 1st in kitchen. Pipes in basement are insulated. For the steam vents, there's a mix of what look to be original that do not adjust and Dole 1a Adjustable Vari-Vents. Also it a single pipe system and I've checked and all the valves are completely open on the radiators.

Here's my issues:

1. One of the first floor radiators that my plumber recently put in one of the Dole vents has intermittently not worked. It did however after I opened and then closed the air vent on it but this has happened twice now since Sunday
2. Two other first floor radiators have recently been intermittently been hissing/making a noise like when a smoke detector is dying (have same dole vents on it)
3. Oir bedroom radiator will intermittently make a really loud banging noise...also has one of those Dole vents on it

My intial thoughts was the replace all of the air vents in our system to have them match. Is there any risk in doing so? I was thinking the Hoffman 1a...is this a good choice? Then in balancing the system, is it basically just trial and error until I get it right? Am I also ok to have some rooms set to be hotter than others from a comfort standpoint (want bedroom to be lower but 1st floor higher since it's always cold down there)?

Thanks for your help!

Mitch

KC_Jones

First what is the main venting in the basement like? Do you know what pressure the boiler is running at? If it's too high that could cause some of the issues you are talking about. As far as venting radiators in general you vent faster as you gain elevation so you vent the first floor slow the second floor a bit faster and so on. The idea is to get steam to all the radiators at the same time. This starts with good venting on mains and then proper radiator venting. If you vent them all the same speed the first floor will be warmer than the second. It sounds like to a degree that's what you want, but be aware it might be too cold upstairs if you use the same size vent everywhere. It all depends on pipe lengths and radiator sizes. There is an excellent eBook in the store that covers venting and I encourage people to get it. Good information it's only 10 dollars and goes to charity. The banging could be a slop issue. Have you checked the slope of all the radiators and the pipes running to them? The radiator should be sloped towards the inlet valve and any horizontal runs to the radiator should be sloped towards the main. If the slope is the wrong way water can lay in the pipe or radiator and then the steam will pick up the water and slam it into the first thing it encounters (elbow end of radiator whatever) and bang. Oh as far as vents I like Gorton, but you will get a lot of opinions on this one as we all have our preferences. There are several good brands out there and I think you will hear more from others.
http://store.heatinghelp.com/product-p/300.htm

ChrisJ

You're going to get a few different opinions on this.

First, it is my opinion air vents typically won't fix banging or hammering.

That said, depending on your operating pressure Hoffman 1As might work great. However, it is my understanding that the Vent Rite 1 is a superior product and well worth the extra money. If you want an adjustable vent, I would go for the Vent Rite 1 without a doubt.

Personally, I'm a Gorton man. Gorton vents are not adjustable but they don't click and clack like the other style vents and I find them to work much better at low pressures. I had problems with Hoffman 1As getting plugged with a droplet of water which would stop the radiator from heating until I blew it out with a can of air.. Most people don't have this problem with them though, however the adjusting cap is very sloppy making the numbers on the side useless as a reference and they do click and clack as they open and close.

Some guys like Maid-O-Mist due to their cost and I've heard they are a good vent but I have no personal experience with them. They are very similar to Gorton vents but have some plastic components.

Fred

I use the Hoffman 1a's on all my radiators and have for 24 years. I have had no problem with them and really like them. Having said that, I have heard people say they clack when they open and close (Mine are silent). I haven't experienced that but I am using a supply that I keep on hand from 15/20 years ago. With everything being made in China these days, I wouldn't be surprised if Hoffman is sourcing some of their vents from there. It seems everyone that uses Gortons are reasonably happy with them (some recent complaints about getting bad ones) but Gorton/suppilers are really good about exchanging those.
As KC said above, check the pitch of the radiator and its supply pipe on that radiator that bangs. That is a different issue from venting. And do make sure you have plenty of good venting at the ends of the Mains, after the last radiator run. That's critical to effecient operation.

NJHomeowner

All the radiators are definitely pitched including the exploding noise one. Pressure...it always says 1.5 but I don't know of the gauge is broken considering it says that even when boiler is off?

NJHomeowner

Also can I use one of these vents on the baseboard radiator too? I think everything on the mains is Gorton...

ChrisJ

Mschuh2581 said:

All the radiators are definitely pitched including the exploding noise one. Pressure...it always says 1.5 but I don't know of the gauge is broken considering it says that even when boiler is off?

I would say the gauge is broken.
Is this one of the "internal siphon" gauges that screw right into the boiler?

Fred

Mschuh2581 said:

All the radiators are definitely pitched including the exploding noise one. Pressure...it always says 1.5 but I don't know of the gauge is broken considering it says that even when boiler is off?

It is not working if it reads 1.5PSI pressure when the boiler isn't on.
Did you also check the pitch of the supply line to that radiator, in the basement ? If on the second floor, you can try to lift the entire radiator about a 1/2" and then repitch it. That lift will add pitch to the supply under the floor (if there is a horizontal run between the first floor cieling and the second floor. If it is all vertical from the basement, then it is not an issue. Just the horizontal in the basement.

NJHomeowner

Also to add, the Ventrite is the dole ones which are having the problems now...

ChrisJ

@Mschuh2581 can you post some pictures of the radiator(s) you're having problems with?

Also include pictures of the piping to them, as well as the boiler's piping.

It will make things a lot easier for us.

NJHomeowner

The gauge on the boiler is attached to the front of it.

The second floor problem radiator already has a significant pitch to it. I believe the pipe to it is also vertical from the basement, but the wood that's raising it is polyed into the floor and won't raise if you try and lift it.

Are any of you contractors/plumbers who work ING he Bergen County, NJ area?

ChrisJ

@JStar does and I would highly recommend him.

(732) 494-4357
Thatcher Heating and Air Conditioning
2A Linsley Pl
Metuchen, New Jersey

NJHomeowner

So would this then make sense with the Gorton valves:

1 No 4 in 1st floor room where thermostat is
3 No 5, 2 in downstairs radiators closest to boiler, 1 in hot bedroom on second floor (which is directly two floors above boiler)
4 No 6, 3 remaining second floor bedrooms and bathroom
3 C, 2 in downstairs cold room, which although on first floor pipes wrap entire basement before they get to these two and 1 for 3rd floor attic

Also, what should I then use for the 1st floor kitchen which has a baseboard for the system, another cold room, also pretty far distance in piping to get to it?

NJHomeowner

Also for radiator sizes:

Thermostat one is big
Ones I was going to use for 5's, one big, one medium one is small
6's, two big, one medium one small
C's, all three are between the medium and small in size

Fred

This is where it's all trial and trial. It's hard to tell what size will work best on any given readiator/room. What seems logical isn't always so. I don't think you have said how well your mains are vented yet. That could change everything in terms of radiator vents. Do the Mains firsst and then retink what the rads need. That's one of the reasons I like the Hoffman 1a"s so well. They are a quality vent and you can adjust them at any point. Maid-o-Mist also makes a vent that comes with 5 different orifices that also gives you that flexibility.

NJHomeowner

I'm going to have to check on the mains and get back to you. For the radiators, Hoffman will be ok if the vent-rites are mostly giving me issues right now?

Fred

I like the Hoffman 1a's and they are a very good quality.

Abracadabra

I wouldn't use #6 or #C vents on radiators unless you try a #4 or #5 first and have issues. Make sure you have adequate main venting first.

NJHomeowner

Would it be too much on the 6 or C? I got to thinking I needed them too based on ther guide -

NJHomeowner

http://s3.supplyhouse.com/manuals/1351088099583/85125_PROD_FILE.pdf

nicholas bonham-carter

That diagram looks like the Gorton company illustration which is not the right way to go about it.
1. Leave the existing radiator vents alone for now. Increase your main venting. Put a new 0-3 psi gauge on the with the pressuretrol. When you have a couple of ounces of back-pressure, during the initial venting stage, you know that you have enough main venting.
2. Get your pressuretrol adjusted down as far as you can so the pressure does not exceed 1.5 psi. A vaporstat will make this easier.
3. Examine all the radiators, and then begin to increase or decrease their venting based on the speed at which steam will arrive. Using the adjustable hoffman 1A's will make this easier.
4. Check your thermostat for proper steam settings, which will give longer burn cycles (1CPH). This will reduce the runtime, and consumption of the boiler.--NBC
PS, read this:
https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/balancing-one-pipe-steam-systems/

j a_2

Vent rite 1 A. Adjust by size of the radiator with a little thought into distance from boiler....post a pic. of the boiler and near boiler piping...Get the pressure under control

NJHomeowner

Any advice on which pressure gauge to get? Is this easy to put in?

I already use he Nest thermostat. To take a step back, Tuesday for example was about 26 degrees, our house is about 3000 sq feet not including our basement. Th heat was on for 12.5 hours by having it at 68 from 8am to 10 at night, 62 overnight.

Am I horribly inefficient here?

nicholas bonham-carter

A true calculation of efficiency would be the BTU/Square Foot/Degree Day, for your location.
Without those calculations, you can look for the following signs of inefficiency:
1. Steam taking too long to get to the radiators, due to inadequate, or nonexistent Main (not radiator) venting.
2. Excessively high pressure (more than 4 ounces.
3. Uninsulated supply pipes.
4. Improper setting of the thermostat, and/or temperature setbacks of less than 24 hours duration. A lower constant temperature can be more comfortable than excessive fluctuation from too hot, down to too cold every few hours. Do a search here for Nest, and you can read other's experiences with this thermostat, and what they replaced it with.
5. Inadequate building envelope air sealing.
some of these things are easy to do, and others not, so try to address these in the order above, for improvement.--NBC

KC_Jones

Mschuh2581 said:

Any advice on which pressure gauge to get? Is this easy to put in?



I already use he Nest thermostat. To take a step back, Tuesday for example was about 26 degrees, our house is about 3000 sq feet not including our basement. Th heat was on for 12.5 hours by having it at 68 from 8am to 10 at night, 62 overnight.



Am I horribly inefficient here?

Just to be clear are you saying between 8 and 10 (14 hour period) the heat ran for 12.5 hours? As NBC said can't really answer the efficiency question based on that, but that amount of run time at 26 degrees seems excessive IMHO. That being said it could be a function of your setback, it could be bad venting there are a bunch of factors at work here. Take some pictures of the boiler and piping around it as well as the vents you have on the mains in the basement. There are many things you can do to tune up the system as long as the basic system is fairly decent. If you can post pics we can give you some input as to what you have. Here is a source many of us have used for a low pressure gauge.
http://www.valworx.com/category/low-pressure-gauges-25-lower-mount

jch1

Amazon sells a 0-3psi gauge, but there are a few other places like the gauge store as well. They're rather simple to install, you just need a few fittings and nipples to put it all together.

I'm sure you will hear some mixed thoughts as to the usefulness of Nest thermostats with steam heat. The key consideration for any thermostat is whether it can limit the system to 1 cycle per hour. I'll defer to others for reasoning behind this, but I wanted to provide you with the data I just downloaded from my thermostat (ecobee). This is obviously all dependent on your location, insulation, etc., but here's a bit of information that may be of use:

Date.....Avg. temp..... System on time (converted to hrs)
1/29 ........36.3 ........ 4.3
1/30 ........27.8 ........ 5.41
31st ........32.1 ........ 4.98
1st ........29.1 ........ 6.08
2nd ........15.4 ........ 6.75
3rd ........19.8 ........ 6.29
4th ........22.6 ........ 6.25


I hope that formatting worked. So when the temp is in the teens-twenties, my boiler is on for around six hours. That's with a 3-4 degree setback when I'm sleep and out of the house (we're not in the house for a total of 17 hours), so again, numbers may vary, but we keep it at 72 when we are home and awake and 68 when we are gone or sleep.

NJHomeowner

Wow...I'm at 68 when awake, 62 when asleep

jch1

Haha I noticed that, and I'm always interested in seeing other's temperature settings. I asked my in-laws this, who live in the Dakotas, and they said they prefer it to be at about 65 when awake, so I'm guessing we're at the high end here.

NJHomeowner

I think I am at one cycle per hour, here's the breakout for that day. Figure it was at 68 for 14 hours, 62 for 10.

nicholas bonham-carter

Using the amount of gas burned will give you a better idea.
If the boiler is short-cycling, because of bad venting, the burner time will be less, even though the Nest will be calling for heat throughout the period.
Assuming the venting is correct, and the boiler is not over-sized, there could be a continuous burn once an hour, which provides enough steam to heat up the rads, and therefore the inside space for 45 minutes or so.--NBC

Fred

I keep my thermostat set at 66 degrees 7/24. On a 25 degree day, my boiler will run for 15 to 20 minutes per hour. 1 cycle per hour. 12.5 hrs. seems unusually long. Did we ask what your total radiator EDR is and what your net steam output is for your boiler? It may be that the boiler is somewhat under-sized (or isn't firing at the correct rate) and it simply takes that long to get things up to temp.

EDIT: I probably should add 5000 sq. ft. house.

NJHomeowner

How do I know which of those gauges to choose? Is this as simple as unscrewed out the old one and then putting in the new one? How would,I then adjust my pressure (waiting for wife to send pics for me to add).

Fred

This is the gauge most of us use: http://www.valworx.com/product/low-pressure-gauge-25-0-3-psi
You need to put it on a pigtail. You can just put a Tee on the pigtail that your Pressuretrol is mounted too and add this gauge to that. Leave your 0-30PSI gauge on the boiler. As useless as it is for low pressure steam, it is required by virtually all local codes in the US.

Larry_52

I like to use Hoffman 40's. If the radiator needs more venting I have tapped another 40 into it. My own dwelling consists of single 40's on all my rads and two Hoffman 75's on one main and one 75 on another main. The temp difference between floors is minimal and my closest rad between furthest is about sixty seconds on first steam.

I just like the slow consistent rate of the 40. Helps in setbacks with cold starts from overwhelming system with condensate. It did take that second 75 on my main to get rads hot around same time.

NJHomeowner

Here's the boiler pics

KC_Jones

I am assuming the people you have had work on this have not commented on how completely wrong that piping is? Has that copper been recently worked on? You are almost certainly getting wet steam which could be causing some of the issues you are experiencing. I don't see an equalizer nor a Hartford loop. Could you take a picture from further back so we can see the boiler and the piping at the ceiling and a shot showing boiler and return piping. How about main venting?

NJHomeowner

Let me get a better pic. All of the other pipes are definitely caste iron.

The return is the pipe to the right along the floor that then goes horizontal with the view from the front.

j a_2

Sorry, kinda why I was asking for a pic…..my opinion, its got to go,,,,

NJHomeowner

Alright, can find two air vents on pipes in basement and here's a better pic of boiler.

Valves I cannot make out any writing on them.

Abracadabra

Ya... that's not going to work... you effectively have a single 2" copper riser into a 3" "header" up at the ceiling. I use "header" loosely, because any water that gets that high will only end up running throughout your mains. The "equalizer" if you want to call it that is bushed down so water isn't going to come back down the loop. No Hartford loop of any kind that I can see.

Looks like you might have had an underground return at one time?

Fred

With the way that boiler is piped, almost any hammer, steam distribution, condensate return problem can occur. System has to be inconsistent in how/where it distributes steam. Venting, while essential, isn't going to fix this situation. If you have the Owner's manual/installation Manual for that boiler, take a look at how it should have been piped. If you don't have it, go on-line or to Peerless and request a copy.
Boiler is 30 years old. You have to make a decision on getting that piping corrected or installing a new boiler and having it piped correctly. My choice would be a new install. At a minimum the following should be corrected:
- Copper should be taken out for everything except wet returns
- Proper header (at least 1 size larger than boiler risers)needs to be installed with risers from boiler installed on one side of header, followed by riser(s) to the Mains (Risers to mains should tie to the header indivudually), then followed by equalizer out of the end of the Header.
- Hartford loop needs to be installed about 2" below the water line, into the Equalizer.
- That Bull Tee that your riser (at the Main) has to go and will be gone if the equalizer is properly installed off of the Header.