Water treatment for hydronic systems?

DanHolohan

Just wondering. When you install a new hot-water system, do you use chemicals to clean and treat the system before turning it over to your customer?

Do you treat older systems with any chemicals? If so, what chemical and why?

Is city- or well water any stranger these days?

Thanks.

hot_rod

excellent questions

My opinion is all new systems should at the very least be power flushed. A cleaner would be better yet to help cut the oils, greases, fluxes, etc. depending on how careful and neat the pipe fitters are

As for treatment and fill water quality, it really depends on what the quality of the job site water is.

Need to look at hardness, ph, TDS, chlorides, at the very least.

I'm not sure how many city or rural water systems supply water that meets the spec that boiler and tank manufacturers insist on now a days?

When hydronic systems combine copper, brass, iron, steel, plastic, aluminum alloys and various stainless alloys, the issue of water quality becomes much more important.

I do think potable water quality nationwide is changing, not to mention the chemicals they add at treatment plants, and how they work in hydronic.
I think Dan you are currently experiencing that at your home, and NY has some of the best water quality in the US. I remember that book you recommended "Liquid Assets" A History of NYC's Water System. maybe much of NYC water is still untreated?

I've read Austin, Texas of all places is building a desalinization plant (RO) because their ground water has become to "brackish" for consumption.

They probably need to start filtering out fracking chemicals from their water supply.

Snowmelt

Yes I recomend sentinel cleaner then inhibiter. I go one further I recomend nuvo h20 also for domestic water right after the meter or the hot water inhibiter right before the water heater.

DanHolohan

Thanks, guys. From what you've seen, do you think many contractors pay any attention to these things before there are problems with the equipment?

icesailor

I would have done all of the above. Unfortunately, if you are the only one doing it, and your competition considers you a fool for doing it, it really hurts the bottom line.

The only time I ever found it easy to sell water treatment was when the ladies hair turned green or blue.

Snowmelt

Ice, when I show them a tankless heatexchanger all rotted out then they ask why did this happen and I say there's water is hard. Or when I take the stem from there bathroom facet off ad it's filled with sand and other debre I usually get the house sediment filter job.
To dans question, he'll no they don't. Most jobs I been out to a seen no servicing valves on these tankless.

Tinman

Hot Rod, I know in the past you've recommended Rhomar products. Can you suggest specific brands and descriptions that you feel are the best for the above mentioned applications?

Harvey Ramer

I am a strong believer in water treatment. I have more than 1 success stories with it. As a matter of fact, I carry a couple pints of Fernox F3 cleaner on the truck. I sell them when I do a boiler cleaning. People respond well to the idea of a clean system, inside and out. Then of course, I have to go back a week or so later and flush it out and add the F1 inhibitor. It's an easy sell and people get lots of benefits from it.

I have also found success using these products on non-oxygen barrier systems and open wood boiler systems. When checking the inhibitor levels several years later, I have found the water clean and clear.

Every new system I install gets some form of treatment. They deserve it!

Currently I am noodling with the idea of setting up a portable deionization rig that I can use on jobs where the water has a high TDS.


Ask yourself one question. When you replace a component in a hydronic system, did it fail from the inside or from the outside?

When I read old books about the Daniel Boones and William Penns that first explored these rolling hills and valleys, that we have managed to turn into an overpopulated, industrial wasteland, they described clear blue lakes and crystal clear rippling brooks full of trout. Those very same brooks are now called criks and they are fishless, brown and dirty.

I would contend that we are very much polluting the water, above ground and below ground.

There are a few contractors in the area that are using the treatments. There would be more using it if someone told them about it and explained how it works.

Tinman

Harvey, do you use anything besides Fernox?

Harvey Ramer

Stephen Minnich said:

Harvey, do you use anything besides Fernox?

No, not yet. I am going to try the sacrificial anode setup shortly. Excited to see how it performs.

Larry_52

for NY hot water heat I would only check hardness and pH. Keeping pH at 8.5 can eliminate iron corrosion at 180degs. I would and keep hardness in bicarbonate form less than 10 ppm. With Hardness & pH, I tend to treat this with straight caustic (if it lacks copper piping). Caustic is like a one stop shop and is pretty cheap. It will take all the co2 out of water in exchange for carbonate, it will remove temporary hardness in exchange for more carbonate. It also converts permanent magnesium hardness to milk of magnesia, sodium sulphate, table salt and salt peter. With copper would not use caustic, been recommended to me to use phosphate instead for copper. High pH in soft water with sulphates and nitrates can eat coppers oxide layer.

Since hot water systems don't cycle up in concentration like steam boilers it is not something I would habitually watch.

One thing that I know is coming by this summer for nyc water is the operation of the new DEP Croton reservoir filtration plant. The Croton reservoir water is poor in comparison to the Catskill that has been in operation for ever in many areas of NYC. NYC couldn't use the Croton unless there was maintenance forcing its use as it failed federal standards for turbidity. the new filtration plant will put the Croton back in use forever and does nothing to treat dissolved solids. The hardness is over 4 times the Catskill. You can use the 2008 nyc drinking water quality report as this was the last time they cut in the Croton reservoir and actually had to print its quality. The 2013 report only lists the Catskill as it was only resevoir in use. Anyone maintaining steam boilers in NYC getting the Croton mix starting this summer is going to see their boiler water go south.

kcopp

I have been using Rhomar products for the last 10 years in "troubled" systems. The systems that have a lot of Rubber tubing radiant in them. Its been a great help.
I do think that this is going to be a serious issue now that aluminum and SS boilers are getting a foot hold in the market.
As to treating the system as part of a new install... it depends on the system. If its a old CI/Steel system, you bet. If its a newer finn tube generally speaking ,no. I am starting to make the switch over to Fernox as the compressed applicator bottles make getting the chemical into the system a lot cleaner and faster.
Generally around here in NH the City waters are pretty decent.
Ice makes a good point about treating or not treating. If I am the only one doing it I will be more money and be the high bidder....and may not get the job. I need to do a better job of marketing.

icesailor

You guys need to understand about DENIAL. The olny disease that says that there is nothing wrong. AKA, "The Egyptian River Disease. Which means that it won't happen to them, and that whatever someone else says about something, they are right, and we are wrong. Which also goes along with the "Laws of unintended consequences". "No good deed goes unpunished"

Or, what happens if I do this? Might this happen if I do it?

Like a 1960's copper radiant ceiling 3 story brick house with the state of the art system, and Sarco blender for the radiant and separate high temperature CI radiators. Someone changed the boiler and connected the two systems together. Now, you have high limit hot water in the ceiling coils. Some ceiling coils have failed and been replaced with copper baseboard. Looks like schitt. Ceilings all on floors with roofs. Probably not enough pressure in system so air got in coils and coils froze.

Boiler water nasty looking and rust plaque inside copper tube.

Do I

#1: Put cleaner in the system and run the risk of the cleaner opening up a corrosion leak in a ceiling that will need to come down?

#2: Pretend that the rust plaque isn't there and hope that the owners sell the property and it will be someone else's problem if they put chemicals in it.

I chose the latter. I retired.

Harvey Ramer

@icesailor
Occasionally there is a system that is so bad I don't want to run the risk of treating it and being left with a bag of worms. If a system is that bad, it is time for a replacement. I inform them of this and the ball is in their court.

Larry_52

For the same reasons as the last two posts I would not recommend makeup water purification without first having everyone understanding that you are about to shift the chemical equilibrium of your system if it's in good shape or bad. Taking an old scaled or corroded boiler and swapping over to treated water has some real immediate impacts that can be interpreted as bad. Long term water purification is good but who is going to maintain it.

Motivation is key, if you have a boiler or system that has failed a couple of times from some corrosion you might have a client that is willing to play ball. If you show up and see the impending disaster and this is a first time or new owner then selling the religion is going to be difficult.

SWEI

Harvey summed it up nicely, though we are using Rhomar here. Shipping is such a big component of the cost that we started using the commercial (1:250) formulas for all systems.

jumper

A failed business of mine was filling hydronics with degassed,demineralized water.

SWEI

Not sure I understand that clearly -- failed how?

jumper

>>Not sure I understand that clearly -- failed how?<<
Not enough business.Hot water heating works for years without mineral or air control.

NYplumber

Great post Dan. Personally we dont use water treatment unless there seems an apparent requirement. After your done installing a boiler correctly, doing a heat loss, adding proper isolation valves and then water treatment its pretty much impossible to win a bid.
on snowmelt we check the PH and glycol levels yearly. This is all residential.

Im curious what guys are doing for commercial systems like medical facilities both on the dhw side and on the heating side.

Thanks.

hot_rod

Many times the facility maintenance staff is responsible for fluid quality control. And also, many of the chemical suppliers offer this service as part of the price for their chemicals. Sometimes the companies that supply the dishwashing and cleaning chemicals will offer boiler and cooling tower fluid maintenance.

I do get pictures more and more often showing component failures due to fluid quality.

Maybe because they expect a warranty

I'm quite certain this was not a factory defect, thanks Dale for the picture. Nice that it wasn't a Caleffi brand.

SWEI

hot rod said:

fluid quality control. And also, many of the chemical suppliers offer this service as part of the price for their chemicals. Sometimes the companies that supply the dishwashing and cleaning chemicals will offer boiler and cooling tower fluid maintenance.

Beware of chemical salesmen bearing gifts.

Harvey Ramer

Here is what can happen in circulators. This pic is the impeller of a circ off of a open type outdoor wood boiler. A stainless volute would have done nothing to protect it.https://www.dropbox.com/s/xpesegnauk798n9/20150204_154010.jpg?dl=0

The impeller is completely clogged with iron flakes.

PM Home and Cabin Services

Residential. I check fluid with my tune ups . Ph and glycol. You would be surprised when you test, often glycol mix is found because it was added long ago without any on site documentation indicating its in there (fuzzies, if your lucky). Most of the time, it is expired, corrosive or diluted to useless. My customers appreciate me looking out for their system better than the last guy.

NYplumber

HR, I will speak to the facility staff and recommend they call the chemical company. The DHW pump on a recent installed water heater failed (or so im told). I bet you get many parts back due to corrosion.

How are you guys testing ph other then the strips from the pet store fish dept?

Harvey Ramer

I use an electronic tester from Dakota Instruments. It measures PH, TDS, Conductivity, Salinity and temperature.

Very handy little gismo! It's also water proof so it won't get damaged if you drop it in the toilet while studying medical science.

hot_rod

Even potable water systems can reek havoc on components. Here is a example of a "failed" returned zone valve from DHW use.

I'm pretty sure it didn't leave the factory or supply house in that condition

Tim McElwain

Do I use chemicals to clean and treat the system?

Every boiler I ever installed was flushed and cleaned with a treatment from Rhomar. The system was then treated with Rhomar and all city water/well water was disconnected no backflow no PRV. I have always installed Low Water Cutoffs on all boilers steam and hot water. Some of these systems have been running for over 10 years without any need to deal with the water.

Now with the new pumps I would say be careful with iron oxides so a different approach needs to be taken.

I attended two sessions with Bruce Marshall and he is talking about Fernox sounds like a great product.

icesailor

hot rod said:

Even potable water systems can reek havoc on components. Here is a example of a "failed" returned zone valve from DHW use.

I'm pretty sure it didn't leave the factory or supply house in that condition

Looks like a new prototype model to me. What's wrong with it?

Larry_52

@NYplumber
I use a MyronL 6p digital meter, which is now an ultra meter II.

jumper

While on this subject,how about a side stream filter? How about side stream deionizer? Today's low interest rates and high fuel costs makes for a quick payback.

kcopp

jumper said:

A failed business of mine was filling hydronics with degassed,demineralized water.

What did you use to De ionize your water?

kcopp

What color should your water be on a properly cleaned and flushed HW system?

clammy

In the past w standard cast boilers i would power flush them and depending upon the type of system ,gravity ,rads or baseboard and if the water from the system looks like crap i ll usually run some tsp through the system then after a day or 2 comer back and drain and power flush the system .When using any mod con i like to install dirt seperators on all copper system and magenitic seperators on steel system .I also have started using sential products with good luck espically in a few area where seperate town water companies supply water in one or twp town the water is extremely hard and on the few low water content boilers (baxi) i ve used sential producrts to stop boiler kettling and have had excellent results .As for those who do not do any treatment they usually don t even install a air seperator so it comes with what you pay and what you get no pay no get.Its strange because when i suggest this to a ssues they always who come nobody else is offering or doinmg this my reply is i don t know peace and good lucl clammy

hot_rod

kcopp said:

What color should your water be on a properly cleaned and flushed HW system?

A lot depends on what the system is made of. Anytime you add fresh water you add some O2. This will react "oxidize" the ferrous components and give the fluid a brownish color. Some systems that have quantities of iron ferrite tend to get a grey or black color.
3. Different types of radiant tube, especially non-barrier can result in unusual water color and quality.

It's tough to keep clear fluid in a hydronic system unless it is a cleaned, all non-ferrous components.

Larry noted in another posting adding DI or DM water to an old system can cause problems. With purified water I feel you need to add a hydronic condition to prevent that "pure" aggressive water from attacking components, especially the less nobel soft metals.

I think water conditioning and water treatment need to go hand in hand.

It's a fairly complex technology treating boiler water. You need to know how one change in fluid condition effects the balance of the system.

Owning testers is great idea, but you need to know what the numbers mean and how they work within the system.

Larry_52

Hotrod just summed it up pretty well. Except that iron ferrite is not the black stuff, that is magnetite the oxide layer you want to form. magnetite will protect any iron in the system. Although if you are seeing a lot of magnatite on a flush that could mean that something changed in the system and the oxide layer just was compromised aka bad.

In lower temp flux areas it is more common to see bright red hematite which is good but not as desirable as magnetite as an oxide layer for iron based metals.

john p_2

Just a bit curious does anyone but me have concerns in a residential home where you are going to be cleaning a system and then treating the heating water with more chemicals that are to be left in the system? I don't have the greatest faith in a backflow preventer keeping all of those chemicals confined to the heating system and not mixing with the domestic...am I nuts?

That said, I do agree it should be flushed and treated (especially after having just developed a pin hole in my aluminum block on my Utica UB90) but not sure I trust it not mixing in with the domestic water.

hot_rod

An approved, listed back flow preventer provides very secure protection. Two check valves and a sliding spool would all have to fail or stick to allow back flow.

Use a Caleffi AutoFill and you get an additional check

Another option is to install a fill system like an Axiom, for one brand, and don't make a connection to the potable supply.

Or leave the fill in the off position..

JWH

I would be more concerned about the domestic coil or indirect water heater for contamination, but this can only happen when domestic water pressure is lower than the boiler pressure. Rare but possible, I've seen it happen...