New Yorker Boiler with crack above the water line

blazin202

hey - I have a New Yorker model number CLS - 8- P and was wondering why it was burning a ton of oil recently - (way more then average) I purchased the books and the chimney looks like if it had wheels on the house it would be doing 200mph down the tracks. I had my oil service guy check it out and we could clearly see water bubbling and leaking when the furnance is on and water about 75-80% full on the water level - its usually sits about 40-50% mark. I have seen stop leak products and also heard they dont work when the crack is above the water line. Hoping someone has some proven experience/suggestions or is it really a full replacement?

Jamie Hall

Sorry, good buddy -- while a stop leak product might work briefly...

It's toast. Replacement time.

JUGHNE

There are plenty of stories here on the wall about steam boiler replacements that went bad. If it were mine I would post pictures of existing near boiler piping on this site for review. Furnace and oil burner people are not necessariliy steam boiler people. Read thru some of the postings here for steam and you will see that are many land mines to avoid. IMHO

JUGHNE

You say you already have Dan's books so you are way ahead of most.

Dave0176

New Yorker is Burnham I believe.

blazin202

Attached are some pictures of the current setup/boiler. Let me know what you guys think - i had one guy look at it and quote a new boiler and mentioned the whole thing is installed wrong. Not sure if he was just saying that or its the truth.

Im debating on moving to gas instead on doing a oil again or maybe doing a gas hot water and oil for heat. I have gas in the building for stoves. The guy that quoted me wanted me to stay with oil - not sure if its just because its an easier job. Oil is cheaper now but with the oil monopoly overseas im sure its going backup as soon as they knock shale out of the picture.
Im burning about 3000 gallons every year. About 200 gallons a month during the summer on water alone.

KC_Jones

Did the guy that quoted it mention specifically what he "thought" was wrong with the install. The steam side of things actually doesn't look bad to me. Both tappings on the boiler used +, nice big header that is very high +, equalizer piping appears to be the proper size + I can't see everything, but what I can see doesn't look bad at all. I would call someone else for a quote. Where are you located? We may be able to recommend someone. Have you tried the find a contractor link on this site? I am sure others may comment on the piping. Did this guy measure every radiator in your house and size the new boiler by that or just look at the old boiler?

Fred

I don't see anything wrong with the way this boiler is installed. Don't let anyone take that nice large Header out. Everything looks just as it should. I'd be looking for another contractor if it were me.

KC_Jones

+1 on the big header....those are gold especially up high like that!

Randy-LeeBraman

i think i'd be looking into a new contractor the piping looks pretty
good to me.Also why do you think shale gas is going to be knocked out.i live in NE PA in the heart of shale drilling and ther's more wells being drilled everyday.my son works for a company that hooks the well heads to the pipe line and they have a backlog of work till at least june just for one energy company.

blazin202

Hey guys - im in westchester county, ny - I when thru most of the local guys in my area (contractors area of this site) most are nyc and dont come up this way. The one that did stop by was one on this site - I removed the company name here but if you message me i will tell you the name of the company. Im going to strongly encourage anyone to get 3 quotes from companies to see the good guys from the bad. He mentioned the harford loop is wrong, he said the 2 - 2inch stream pipes should be 1, also the way its exhausted to the chimney with the hvac tape. He called the job a hack job etc, called a buddy at work to talk about it and said he was going to redo the whole header. He also went as far as to say no way a permit was pulled - i know for a fact it was from town records. He said the reason the boiler is running inefficiently and now shot is the way it was installed . He actually had me thinking he was right but im here looking for guidance and getting it done right.

I was taking about oil shale - more on the side that they keep dropping the price to shake out shale companies so they dont make a profit. Reports i have seen were shale companies started cutting back since the oil price drop.

Its really a gamble in 5 - 10 - 20 yrs what fuel is going to be cheaper but with gas boilers being so much less maintenance, no fuel deliveries, etc - just seems to make sense to me. At the very least thinking oil heat and gas hot water.

blazin202

Also he didnt take the time to look at the radiators but asked me how many i had. I have another guy coming tomorrow and see what he says. If you can recommend someone that good and in my area ill def give them a call. I pulled the cover off tonight and used furance cement to fill the hole but figured you guys love to see this stuff - attached is the huge hole. Hoping it holds as a temp fix till i find the right guy. I can take more pictures of the setup if that helps anyone.

KC_Jones

When you did find a contractor how big of a radius did you do? Some of the steam guys will travel, but not all. Perhaps someone will see this post and make a recommendation for you.

tim smith

I was just looking at small gas/oil boilers. You could always look at a Columbia mph5 with dual fuel burner, they go down to I think 210,000 input. Price goes up when you start going to firetube w/ dual burner. Just fyi.

Fred

I didn't like the way the flue was installed either but that is going to be replaced with any new boiler. I didn't think the flue should reduce from the boiler size as it goes into the chimney. From what I can see of the Hartford loop, it looks good. It looks like it is tied into the equalizer like it should. Not sure if that is a close nipple into the Equalizer but that is a minor fix (if it isn't). The header, risers, equalizer are all fine!

j a_2

Step 1 make real sure your selected contractor has the ability to install a steam boiler, installing a steam boiler in itself may seem simple…after the fact…..It has to be sized correctly, ask what method he used…i e what pick up factor……and why….I would never use the existing near boiler piping, get all new,with a nice dropped header, you don’t buy a new car and put your old tires on it……Thats just step 1, now you ave to do a complete system evaluation, I know peerless offers a great pre installation booklet available online…Once your guy recommends a boiler, and if your at all savoy, download the i and o manual and read up on it….Does your existing chimney meet the correct size, is the gas line capable of the new addition, is there enough make up air…air that supports combustion….do you have any future plans, such as an addition or are you going to close up the basement and finish it off…Pick 3 or 4 questions from one of Dans books and ask you potential installer to answer them….Ask if he is the installer or does he farm it out, if he farms it out, stay away, and if he carries a brief case send him away

SWEI

blazin202 said:

Its really a gamble in 5 - 10 - 20 yrs what fuel is going to be cheaper but with gas boilers being so much less maintenance, no fuel deliveries, etc - just seems to make sense to me.

I'll put my money on gas. Liquid fuels command a significant premium on a per BTU bases thanks to their near-monopoly in the transportation market. Unless and until that changes on a worldwide scale, the disparity will likely favor gas -- though perhaps not at the insane ratios we saw during the past few years.

Fred

That near boiler piping is fine. Why spend money to replace it just to have a drop header? The current header is so high up, he will get no real benefit from a drop header. The total of the rise and the drop won't be any different from what he has and he won't likely get a header the size of the one he has. Not the same as buying a new car and using old tires. If one uses that analogy, he should replace the mains as well. Just doesn't make sense and unless he just wants to spend extra money, not worth it. IMHO

j a_2

I guess that's why this such a good site lots of input...me I would never tie into that....36 years installing and repairing almost exclusively steam systems has taught me a lot....it has to work good and look good....sorry but that near boiler piping has to go

nicholas bonham-carter

A compromise might be to smash the bell reducers leading into the old header, and pipe 3 inch from the new boiler, into the existing header.--NBC

j a_2

Are those reducing couplings cast...? Kinda looks like malleable

Fred

The way those Bell reducers are configured, any water that might be in the the risers will flow down the header to the equalizer just like they should. I just don't see any reason to touch that piping. It will work beautifully even though it won;t have the look of a drop header, if he's not a steam freak like we are, he's not likely to stand in the basement next to his beautiful boiler and marvel at the way it looks, From a performance perspective, it's not going to get any better. Again, just another opinion.

j a_2

I see your point. That's just me being me..

blazin202

Ya - looks dont bother me since its an unfinished basement. Really care more about performance and it being correct.

RobG

Another reason to leave that header alone is that it looks like it's covered in asbestos insulation. Leaving it is cheaper than remediating it.