boiler shuts down when automatic feeder begins filling boiler

mexkid

Greetings all, new to the page. Need help with system has me stumped. From what I have read, I have a 1 line system peerless boiler. Low water cut off 67a ? was replaced as well as automatic feeder 101a. The problem I have now is that after boiler is on and water feeder has run a few cycles, boiler shuts down when feeder turns on. Boiler turns on as soon as water shuts down. Any ideas?

mexkid

From what I've read here on othere threads I'm pretty sure system is set up incorrectly. Its not a closed system, at some point someone prior to me owning building replaced boiler and modified return line. That will be something to remedy after this heating system for sure! What has me perplexed is the fact that boiler is running, feeder kicks on, and after 5 seconds shuts down and immediately after feeder stops boiler kicks back on. I flushed boiler thinking it could be sediment or something, it will work "normal " (feeder kicks on furnace keeps running) for afew cycles but then goes back to same problem

nicholas bonham-carter

Yes, where is the water going? How often is the boiler low on water?
On every boiler, there should be some safety devices, designed to protect the boiler, in the event of:
1.Over-pressure.(pressuretrol)
2.Low water.(LWCO)
3.Improper burner operation, and flue gas control.(Roll-out , and Damper switches)
these safeties interrupt the power to the gas valve, when certain parameters are not met, and your job here is probably to check the LWCO, and find out why the boiler is running low on water.
Valve off the water feeder, and see how long it takes the water-level to get low enough to shut down the system. Many people here only add water a couple of times a season.
Look around at the system for obvious steam, and water leaks. Check the boiler, when cooled down, by over-filling it to the header, and check for leaks into the firebox.
Use the find a contractor button here to find a steam man, to help you get to the bottom of this potentially serious problem.
Buy the steam books here to inform yourself on the operation, and maintenance of the system.--NBC

Abracadabra

strainer on the water feeder could be clogged.

Fred

You need to make sure the wiring from the LWCO (67) to the Water feeder (101a) are correct. There are 4 terminals on the LWCO and it sounds like it is wired incorrectly. Check the installation instructions

mexkid

There is water and steam escaping from return. This is where i suspect system was incorrectly installed. It does not run back into boiler. But this has been in this condition for years. Problem with it shutting down started this heating season after replacing lwco and auto feeder. I will attach pictures ASAP

mexkid

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/d0/e23eaf8fa5b40c52eb6ff4770f5586.jpg" />

mexkid

Not sure if I'm uploading pictures correctly

Jamie Hall

That picture is visible -- but doesn't show me anything useful.

But -- water and steam escaping from the return? Oh no. That's not right at all. Steam should never get into a return -- may be a bad trap somewhere. Pressure may be too high backing water out of the boiler into a return. Could be... a number of things. But it surely isn't right.

Further, where and how s it escaping? Except for a few rather exotic vapour systems, there should be no way for water or steam to escape. Air, yes -- that's what vents are for -- but neither water nor steam.

Please comment further on this.

mexkid

Ok let me try again with pictures

mexkid

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/e2/472230e0aa975a931549023e04f6d5.jpg" /><img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/9c/0bef62410583ed8d19bd64ced2f952.jpg" />

mexkid

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/8e/1b071b7d65e7c17a4c19709efc0ce5.jpg" />

mexkid

So the last 2 picturesshow where steam and water exit. There was a ball valve installed on bottom and valve has to be open in order for water to escape. Boiler runs and heats up but there is steam and or water consistently running from here. Used to be it only did this when boiler was first put in service at begining of heating season but now is constant. Steam does stop when water valve is open and filling boiler

mexkid

If I close valve, can hear air out of vents but will eventually leak water also

mexkid

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/73/0273fe0851911452d3d0a68868e9e9.jpg" />

mexkid

I did not change any wiring replaced what was there with exactly the same thing so assumed everything would work as before

mexkid

New feeder. Would it be possible still clogged? What I dont get is why it works intermittently. If i shut it down completely and drain, refill and turn on , boiler runs and stays on even if feeder is activated. Seems like it starts to act up after cycling a few times

Jamie Hall

That bit of piping in your last two photos should connect to a wet return somewhere, I expect. Does one of the vertical pipes connect to a steam main, perhaps? And the other a return?

Something seems really amiss in the piping beyond the boiler here. Do you have a copy of The Lost Art of Steam Heating? If not, get one and see if you can figure out where all your piping goes and what it does -- or is supposed to do.

Randy-LeeBraman

Am i wrong or is the return and and hartford loop like not there.
Looks like they just disconnected it and have it running in the drain.

nicholas bonham-carter

You must still find out why the system needs water so often.
Probably the improper piping at the boiler is causing some problems, but it should not need water to be added more than a couple of times a month. Valve it off and see how long it takes to get low enough to shut down the boiler.--NBC

Abracadabra

Randy-LeeBraman said:

Am i wrong or is the return and and hartford loop like not there.
Looks like they just disconnected it and have it running in the drain.

+1

kevinj_4

Randy-LeeBraman said:

Am i wrong or is the return and and hartford loop like not there.
Looks like they just disconnected it and have it running in the drain.

Me thinks you are right too.....

Fred

Abracadabra said:

Randy-LeeBraman said:

Am i wrong or is the return and and hartford loop like not there.
Looks like they just disconnected it and have it running in the drain.

+1

That's what it looks like. No wonder there is steam and water coming from the return???

gcp13

Definitely looks that way
Is there any piping connected to the boiler below the water level
Looks like the Sightglass valves are upside down as well
If you look at the manual that came with the peerless it explains how the piping should look and you can compare that with what you have, you'll see a huge difference
You need a heating contractor to pipe in the boiler correctly

Abracadabra

Also looks like someone did a piss poor job of removing the asbestos insulation.

mexkid

Looked up images on hartford loop and yes definitely missing! Nothing connected to boiler on return. Would sight glass valves being upside down possibly be culprit for boiler shutting down? I can't see a difference In the valves. How can I differentiate one from the other? I was reading on adifferent thread where mention of pigtail? IInstallation and watet being added? Sorry for ignorance, do appreciate all the help

gcp13

No difference with sightglass valves I was just mentioning that the one on the top has the drain it's supposed to be installed on the bottom instead

Your biggest issue is the piping, the steam leaves the top of the boiler and goes up that 2 inch pipe through all your radiators then turns to condensate (water)which flows back to the piping that's next to the boiler and is supposed to return into the bottom of the boiler,
without that and some leaks at the bottom of that piping the condensate just dumps out onto the floor and then your boiler calls for more water for the next cycle to run
You really need to hire a contractor that knows steam or could at least read a manual and re-pipe that boiler to work correctly.
The fact that someone serviced the boiler and replaced the feeder without noticing the piping or the leaks tells me they're not the right person to hire. A properly installed boiler continues to reuse the water that it has, you do not need a automatic feeder on a properly functioning steam system
For now if you do not have anybody to repipe the boiler you need to continue to let the water leak on the floor or else the boiler will flood after a few cycles and you'll have no heat
If you decide to leave it in that condition your water bill and gas bill is going to be through the roof and the boiler is going to rot out very quickly.
Also the time it takes to heat up cold water every cycle because you just dumped all the hot condensate water out on the floor instead of bringing it back into the boiler

Fred

Personally, I would not continue to operate that boiler in that condition. You've been fortunate that the Low Water Cut-off hasn't failed. If it should, especially with the weather getting very cold, you will crack the boiler block and perhaps do a significant amount of damage. Do get a Steam Pro in there to fix that return piping and the Hartford loop. They are critical to the health and operation of the boiler.

gcp13

You mean you would not use it. I agree

Fred

gcp13 said:

You mean you would not use it. I agree

Correct! I edited my post to add "Not" Thanks!

mexkid

I agree needs to be fixed and yes gas and water bills outrageous to say the least but unfortunately its a 4 unit apt building and have no other heat options. I searched for repairman in this area but could not locate anyone. I got one hit in the 75 milerange. I am located 60 miles ssouth of Chicago. The lwco did fail thats why it was replaced prior to beginning of this heating season. I have had buildng for over 8 years nowbut this is first time I've had the problem with boiler shutting down when water kicks on

KC_Jones

If that piping has been dumping all the condensate like that for 8 years you should prepare for a boiler replacement. Excessive makeup water kills these boilers. Since you appear to be dumping all the condensate you will probably be replacing the boiler sooner than later. You comment about it being the only source of heat, but what will you do if the boiler fails next week? The piping is destroying the boiler.

mexkid

.

mexkid

Any recommendations? Search for repairman only yielded 1 hit in the 75 mile range. I am 60 miles south of Chicago. Yes gas and water bills outrageous! Do want repaired correctly but unfortunately dont have any other options with regards to heat have 4 apartments in this building with no other heat source. Lwco did fail and was replaced prior to beginning of heating season. Person replacing does not have knowledge of this or any steam system, just took off old replaced with new. I've had building for 8 yrs and have never experienced the problem i am currently dealing with, boiler shutting down when feeder activates

Fred

I don't think you fully understand the potential danger associated with a boiler that runs dry. It can damage the property and, god forbid, any tenant who happens to be in the way. You've been very fortunate. Don't press your luck.

vaporvac

Dave B. aka The Steam Whisper is one of THE BEST and you're lucky he's any where near you. Give him a call, tell him you posted on this site and see what he says. He's probably pretty busy, but your situation is unique so he may prioritize. Many of these steam pros will travel for steam.

mexkid

Already called and left message with steam whisperer thanks for the help

Abracadabra

mexkid said:

I agree needs to be fixed and yes gas and water bills outrageous to say the least but unfortunately its a 4 unit apt building and have no other heat options. I searched for repairman in this area but could not locate anyone. I got one hit in the 75 milerange. I am located 60 miles ssouth of Chicago. The lwco did fail thats why it was replaced prior to beginning of this heating season. I have had buildng for over 8 years nowbut this is first time I've had the problem with boiler shutting down when water kicks on

Don't look for a "repairman" look for a steam-man. I'd offer to come down there, but right now I'm swamped unfortunately.