Steam Heat Assistance

FeltBikeRider

First off, I am a new member who has been lurking around these parts for a couple days. So far I have picked up a lot of valuable information from others questions that are similar to mine. For that I thank you all.

Over the weekend we had our first real cold snap here in Maine. My wife and I were woken up a couple times during the night Sunday to some fairly loud hissing from the bedroom radiator. We have lived in the house for 4 years now and this is the first time I recall it ever being that loud. A couple of the other radiators were spitting wet steam as well throughout the house. I do recall some spitting and hissing in the past, and I did replace all the vents on the radiators with vari-vents about 3 years ago.

Yesterday I got the idea that I had most of this stuff figured out and set out to fix what I considered to be a semi broken or at least inefficient system. Having cleaned my boiler thoroughly myself this fall I didn't think this should be too hard either. I was a bit wrong.

I went and got new Main Vents at FW Webb my local plumbing and heating supplier. They didn't supply Gorton which was disappointing because that was what I was after. I reluctantly bought 2 Vent Rite #35s. I thought I needed new ones as one had quite a bit of rust coming down from the vent hole and down onto the pipe feeding it. When I removed the Dole 90s that were there I did verify that they did bleed air out, and they did shut (although 1 maybe did not shut fully.) I installed 1 Vent Rite and ran the system. The Old Dole Main Pipe heated up much faster. So I shut the system down let it cool and put the 2nd old valve back in. I plan on ordering a couple Gorton #1s to replace the Doles with.

I again fired up the system. I had a mild panic attack when the gauge on my boiler rose to 5-7 psi within a minute of running, then got up near 11-12 during peak operation. I immediately called my oil supplier and told him what was going on. He laughed and told me not to worry about it and that the gauge is surely junk. He didn't even want to come install on because he said it wouldn't last more than a couple weeks.

At this point I decided to peak at the Pressuretrol ... It was set to cut in at about 3psi. and the differential was about 1.5psi. A max of 4.5psi??? This seemed way to high based on everything I have read here. So I set the cut in to .5psi and the differential to 1. I commanded the system on at the Thermostat and everything worked nicely.

Fast forward to last night, the same popping and hissing from the bedroom radiator vent, and the kitchen vent was pretty loud too. Does it make sense that the system was likely over pressurized in the past and destroyed the radiator vents causing them to hiss? Or is there still likely another issue with the system?

My only other thoughts and concerns are as follows. The first time I did a blow down was 2 years ago. When I bought the house the home inspector never told me anything about taking care of the boiler. I just happened to see a video about it on youtube and started doing it. The house was rented to a lazy tenant before we bought it for 7 years. My guess is he NEVER did a blow down. The first time I did a blow down and opened the valve, nothing came out. I banged on the low water cut out and brown nasty water came rushing out. I manually filled the system, and did a few more blow downs that day trying to flush it out as best as I could without introducing too much cold water and cracking the boiler. Since my system isnt auto fill and I look at it a couple times a week I am not too concerned that the low water cutout is clogged fully, but I should clean it out (should have when I cleaned the boiler this fall but I didn't) So my big fear here is that the pigtail to the pressuretrol could in fact be blocked, and because my gauge is inaccurate I would never know I don't know how to dismantle the pressuretrol to get to the pig tail to inspect and or clean out. Can I safely try and clear it out from below if I take apart the low water cut out?

I appreciate anyone who took the time to read my incredibly long winded question/s... I am a young home owner with his first child on the way. I want my house to be safe and as efficient as possible for me and my family. The one thing I am asking for this year for Christmas is The Lost Art of Steam Heat ... Thanks again - Jeff

SlamDunk

Checking pigtail is pretty easy. turn off service switch on boiler to remove power, or open circuit breaker. Disconnect two wires in pressuretrol, noting the terminals they are on, remove armored wires from pressuretrol. Use a wrench to remove pressuretrol while holding pigtail with pliers. run something through pig tail.

Vents fail over time. Over pressurizing never helps.

As far as pressuretrol settings, Are you sure it is not cutoff is 3psi and differential is cut in at 1.5 psi?

You might benefit greatly by having a pro stop by and help get things up to snuff and help you understand routine maintenance requirements- just to be overly cautious and safe. It is important that you look for a steam person. The "pro" I hired to help me understand what I had when I bought my house cranked it up to 10 psi. So the best advice I can offer is Pro=Steam man. Very imortant.

FeltBikeRider

The pressuretrol is additive style. Cut in is now set at .5psi and differential is just a tick over 1psi.

I work in a building in which the landlord owns a heating company in house. I asked if they had a steam expert and they all laughed. They are all young guys trained in high efficiency systems. The place I called last night to have service my system (the place I buy oil form, also a large organization) didn't seem at all interested in coming to optimize my steam system.

As a mechanic by trade I feel fairly proficient in servicing systems once I understand them. I am at the point in understanding now, where I know enough to be a hazard to myself. Trying to push the knowledge into the enough to service the system I have but not re-invent the wheel so to speak.

nicholas bonham-carter

If you are handy, then do take off the pressuretrol, and check the pigtail. Reassemble it with a union, to make this yearly job easier. Take pictures, and make notes of how everything is wired, and make sure the boiler is switched off, while working on it. A better 0-3 psi gauge will enable you to verify how the pressuretrol is working.
You will need more Gorton 2 vents on those mains, as the vent rites are too small. A rule of thumb is 1 Gorton 2 for every 20 feet of 2 inch main. You will be amazed at the difference proper venting makes in regard to fuel consumption, and comfort. The radiator vents should be almost silent, when all is well with the main vents.--NBC

FeltBikeRider

So there is little chance of me damaging the pressuretrol during removal from the pigtail? That is my only real concern. I'd hate to damage it and either 1 cause a hazard that doesn't exist or 2 be without heat with a pregnant wife in the house.

SlamDunk

Odds are low but I'm not going to gamble on what I cant see or encourage you to. Your experience will have to guide you.

If you suspect neglect, hedge the bet, find out where you can purchase a pressuretrol and pigtail (Grainger?). How long it would take to get it if you did break something. Or, just buy them and replace both. Order a pressure relief valve too because that is the one component you really want to function properly.

Captain Who

FeltBikeRider said:

So there is little chance of me damaging the pressuretrol during removal from the pigtail?

Just make sure you use a parallel jaw crescent wrench or adjustable wrench on the brass coupler at the bottom of the pressuretrol. If you were to use a pipe wrench or channelocks or vice grips there could be more danger of damaging it. When you have it off, handle it with care and don't drop it or bash it around (obviously).

KC_Jones

An open end wrench that is the size to match the hex is even better, I hate adjustable wrenches.

FeltBikeRider

Hey all thanks for the quick replies. I just took the pressuretrol off and the siphon pig tail out during my lunch break. Not sure where my hesitation was... haha super easy.

The pig tail had some nasty **** in it... there when I first pulled the pressuretrol off there was water all the way to the top of the pig tail. I pulled the pig tail off and blew it out, some nasty gunk came out, but with relatively little pressure. It is now free and clear for sure. I did a blow down with this all off. Then reinstalled everything and its running right now.

Next question, because there was water at the top of the siphon, should I replace the pressuretrol? Will water entering the orifice in the bottom of the pressuretroll damage it? If so I have no problem just replacing it, and that will afford me the oportunity to build a small T at the top of the siphon where I can install a gauge next to the pressuretrol... thanks again

I posted a pic to show the **** i blew out of the siphon onto the floor. I will post some pics of the Main Vents when I get back from lunch...

KC_Jones

The water shouldn't hurt it, the steam can hurt it. The pigtail is there to keep some water between the gauge/pressuretrol and the steam. You could still install the gauge you are talking about it is a fairly quick job as long as you have the few fittings you will need in hand before you start. You would need a tee and a short nipple to remount the pressuretrol and a longer nipple and 90° elbow to mount the gauge. I would also suggest and additional nipple and union under the tee so that you can more easily remove the pressuretrol/gauge for yearly cleaning.

FeltBikeRider

Ok so, after thinking about this all afternoon I set out after work to make a new gauge, and picked up a new pressuretrol just in case mine is junk.

Like I have seen demonstrated I built a tee off the siphon to the new gauge.


I was unable to source a low pressure gauge and had to get what was available. I got water filled one as the pipe diameter was correct and the guy told me some guys like them a lot better, the price was negligible.

I reinstalled the existing pressuretrol to test it. I ran the system for about 5-10 minutes and the new gauge never moved at all. The first floor went from 63 degrees to about 70.... All the radiators are hot. What gives? is the gauge bad? I pulled the siphon tube and made sure it was still clear, it was.

How long does the system need to be running to build pressure? Can all the radiators be hot before a pressure reading? Note the old gauge was at 2psi the whole time I had the siphon disassembled, and rose to 7psi when the system was running.

I'm confused.... again....

Captain Who

It looks like you got another 30 psi gauge. You need a low pressure gauge, preferably 0-3psi.

Captain Who

PS: Those internal syphon gauges have a small pinhole that gets clogged with gunk which makes them get stuck and give a bad reading. They are only there to satisfy the building codes and are rated at 2x the psi rating of the pressure relief valve which is 15psi. I suppose the rationale is that you need to see if the pressure relief valve is defective but no system should ever get up to that kind of pressure unless there is a failure of the pressuretrol and perhaps the thermostat is set to some ridiculously high value and/or we have a nuclear winter.

FeltBikeRider

@‌ Captain Who

I tried to source a low pressure gauge locally but was unable to. I opted to spend 15 on a new gauge that would at least tell me if the other gauge was accurate and I was getting tons of pressure, indicating a safety concern. Since that doesn't seem to be the case, I will buy a low pressure gauge online and then install it in place of the one I got today.

Is it likely, that the needle simply will not move at all with the 0-30psi gauge? I expected it to at least move off its peg with heat being provided to the house... perhaps that's asking more than what this gauge is capable of.

Captain Who

Mine is currently plugged up too. If I took it off and cleaned out the pinhole with a needle and tapped the gunk out of it, I'd be able to just barely get a visible reading when the pressuretrol reaches cut-out around 1.5psi. The rest of the time it's basically stuck on the peg.

FeltBikeRider

O.k thanks, that makes me feel a little better about taking the time to do all of this. I found a 0-3psi gauge on amazon, so I'll be ordering that. I will likely spend more on this project than I will save, but I am fully interested now and find learning this stuff to be worth while.

Captain Who

You're at the same place I was a few years ago. It makes you feel good to understand how your system works. In my area some of the heating "professionals" that come to your house are thieves and not competent with steam. I had one guy crank up my pressuretrol, break the top plastic knob on my sight glass (he did clean it) and I got a bill for $320. I'll leave it to the imagination on whether I paid it or not lol. It's great when you get someone good but terrible when you don't understand the system and you are at the mercy of incompetent people who will take advantage of you and are used to getting away with it because most people won't bother to empower themselves like we are.

Captain Who

PS: It's absolutely CRAZY that the manufacturers don't supply a low pressure gauge and just as crazy that the local supply brick and mortar stores don't ever seem to carry them or have a clue why you would want one.

FeltBikeRider

Yeah I went to 3 suppliers and told them what I was doing. I got the deer in the headlights stare...

I tried explaining why I thought it was important and I got a nod and semi smile.

I even tried explaining it to the guys who work in my building who are heating and plumbing "experts" ... they said if it makes heat and bangs and hisses a little "so what"... I just said I guess I expect my equipment to work right and am willing to put in a little work to ensure that...

Not only that but the 3 suppliers I went to told me Gorton no longer exists. They ALL sell Vent-Rite 35s and ensured me that 1 35 per Main was totally fine.

It's frustrating for sure.

When Brick and Mortar no longer becomes convenient I have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER using the internet. And I hate to say it but more and more I find that the be the case.

Captain Who

Yep, the brick and mortars are writing their own epitaph.

FeltBikeRider

What's scary is that local servicemen will always use brick and mortar due to convenience and time constraints, and if they supply junk we're all in trouble.

I run into it all the time from Napa... as an auto tech I am forced to use many more dealer parts now than in the past. I am of the belief that it should be done right from the get go and if it costs more so be it. In the long run it saves the customer money, and saves me from doing warranty work.

KC_Jones

FeltBikeRider said:

Yeah I went to 3 suppliers and told them what I was doing. I got the deer in the headlights stare...

I tried explaining why I thought it was important and I got a nod and semi smile.

I even tried explaining it to the guys who work in my building who are heating and plumbing "experts" ... they said if it makes heat and bangs and hisses a little "so what"... I just said I guess I expect my equipment to work right and am willing to put in a little work to ensure that...

Not only that but the 3 suppliers I went to told me Gorton no longer exists. They ALL sell Vent-Rite 35s and ensured me that 1 35 per Main was totally fine.

It's frustrating for sure.

When Brick and Mortar no longer becomes convenient I have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER using the internet. And I hate to say it but more and more I find that the be the case.

I ran into the same thing when I did a full boiler replacement. I was able to source the boiler locally, but all the cast fittings and "specialty" items I ended up ordering from supplyhouse.com. The local guy just didn't care actually misquoted me a bunch of items and was 40% higher in price than supplyhouse...I can't ignore that difference. I would prefer to deal locally, but when they are running their business that way I walk away.

SlamDunk

FeltBikeRider said:

I will likely spend more on this project than I will save, but I am fully interested now and find learning this stuff to be worth while.

You might be surprised. You may be able to heat your house at a lower pressure and see a significant fuel savings.

I bought my boiler online!

ChrisJ

I use this series Dwyer gauge which I think can be found on Amazon in different versions depending on what you want. They also sell them right there on the website.

http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Product/Pressure/SinglePressure/Gages-Dial/SeriesLPG4

The specific gauge I'm currently using is this :
LPG4-D9122N Low pressure gage, range -8-0-16" w.c. (-2-0-4 kPa).

I buy all of my Gorton vents as well as most other plumbing supplies from supplyhouse.com

Like @SlamDunk‌ said, you can easily run low pressure on a system that is setup correctly and it without a doubt saves money.

This is the pressure I typically see.

http://youtu.be/bBqMvaU_GNQ

KC_Jones

Chris are you determined to make sure everyone sees that low pressure you are running?

ChrisJ

Yes, and no.
Mainly I want everyone to realize they probably don't need pounds to heat their single family home. And you know what they say, the proof is in the pudding.

I still need a lower pressure gauge though.


Here I am, trying hard to save folks money and you're picking.

Captain Who

@ ChrisJ - I guess with that low pressure there's not much chance that all your radiator vents are closed correct? I mean I suppose your radiators are larger than necessary to heat your house under most outdoor weather conditions WITHOUT getting filled with steam all the way across to the vents. Also, your boiler fires at a nice rate so that it doesn't overpower the rate at which the rads are forming condensate, otherwise it'd beat out the condensate and eventually close the vents and start to develop pressure.

ChrisJ

@Captain Who‌

Yessir, my vents rarely close, though when they do which is usually during a recovery it takes a while for pressure to climb. If I recall 1 hour 20 minutes of run time gave me 1.5 PSI and that's the last time the system saw that kind of pressure.

Now, the Ecosteam shuts it down at 4 ounces and let's it rest for 10 minutes, again only happening during a recovery.

FeltBikeRider

Guys, thanks again for all the input.

I ordered a 0-3 psi gauge from amazon,


Hopefully that gives me an idea of where I am running.

I am going to order some main vents today as well as all new radiator vents. I will likely try and over vent the mains... right now both mains only have 1 vent. They were Dole 90s. One was leaking steam, so they need replacing for sure. Interestingly all the radiators heat up, and at the same time for the most part. Even though one main line supplies 1 room, and the other supplies 3. All with radiators about the same size. My thought was to build a branch, that I could add or subtract Main Vents from. I will start with 3 gorton #1s for the 3 room main. And 1 or 2 Gorton #2s for the 1 room main. Now here's the big question. The bathroom main feed is a single pipe with no vent other than whats on the radiator. That radiator is on the first floor, basically right above the boiler. Should I drill and a tap a main vent for it? or just put a better flowing valve on the radiator itself??


Gorton surely seems to be the theme here for main vents. Does the same ring true for radiator vents?? Or do people prefer hoffman or vari-valves?

I have varivalves on there now and they spit and hiss. Likely due to lack of proper main vents as there are only 2, one on each main currently, and presumably for the entirety of the systems life. The house was my grandfathers and my mom says she remembers the radiators hissing her whole childhood.

ChrisJ

I'm strictly a Gorton man my self.
I had Hoffman 1As on all of my radiators for the first year and had issues with them due to the low pressure I run.

Also, Hoffman style vents click and clack when they open and close. Gorton's are silent due using a bimetal strip.

KC_Jones

I second that. I too had the hoffman style and switched to Gorton. They are silent...it's almost uncomfortable for me now since I was so used to that clicking and now I can't hear anything. The only way I know the system is running is if I happen to catch the thermostat clicking or hear the burner start up. Other than that silence.

FeltBikeRider

Silent is what I am going for. Thats what started me down this rabbit hole. My wife is pregnant and is having a hard time sleeping with the hissing from the bedroom radiator.

Do you think Gorton Ds are suitable for most peoples systems?

ChrisJ

Gorton D suitable for most systems? Absolutely not.

A Gorton D is basically a radiator version of the Gorton 1 main vent and should only be used in rare cases.

I recommend drawing up a map of your system and figuring out the EDR of each radiator and mark it on the map. If you share that with us as well as the boiler size and approx pipe lengths and sizes we can help you decide where to start.

For example this is my current venting.

KC_Jones

D is a huge vent. Unless you have a massive radiator with a really long runout I wouldn't go that big. I had one on my biggest radiator 60 ft² EDR in my dining room/kitchen area and ended up downsizing it. Remember a D vents as much as a #1 main vent. What size EDR is the radiator you are putting the vent on?

FeltBikeRider

After reading Gortons recommendations I think I should be able to figure it out.

Does this make sense?

Gorton D upstairs in the master bedroom.
Gorton 4 in living room where thermostat is located. Gorton 4 in dining room attached to the living room space.
Gorton 4 in kitchen, also attached to living room
Gorton D in bathroom where there is no Main Vent in basement.

KC_Jones

Careful using the recommendations from Gorton. In general most of what they say is wrong. They have a great product, but don't seem to know the best way to apply it. lol

FeltBikeRider

Ok I will measure the radiators tonight and try and calculate EDR for each.

Also I understand the idea is to vent the Mains FAST and the Radiator slow. Why do you want to vent the radiator slowly?

Captain Who

"The bathroom main feed is a single pipe with no vent other than whats on the radiator. That radiator is on the first floor, basically right above the boiler. Should I drill and a tap a main vent for it? or just put a better flowing valve on the radiator itself??"

I have one main like that where all it has is 1 first floor radiator: 25"H x 5"D, 4 tubes, 10 sections. There USED TO BE another radiator on the 2nd floor that was apparently removed when they did remodeling and raised the roof after a fire and turned the attic into a master bedroom. That radiator was (I think) at the base of the stairs leading up to that 3rd floor master bedroom. I'd really like to reinstall that radiator. It is 37-1/2"H x 8"D, 2 columns, 5 sections. That "main" has an old vent at the end of the dry return which is non functional (blocked) and I haven't even been able to determine who made it. It says "USAV -883" if anyone knows anything about it let me know (just curious). Anyway what I was going to tell you is that I have installed 2 varivalves on that single radiator that are open almost all the way so that it doesn't get deprived of steam by the other huge main that all the other house radiators are on. One varivalve is at the top of the radiator and that is open halfway, the other is at the bottom and is open all the way. It is working fine like that. I'm not sure there is any need to put a functioning vent at the end of my dry return at this point.

KC_Jones

If you go too fast your thermostat can overshoot more easily. Also you can overheat rooms more easily. You want to maintain some amount of control. It's all about balance and control. You go too fast and you can't really control it very well.

KC_Jones

I had a couple of those USAV vents on my rads when I bought the house. From my research they are just cheap chinese garbage.

ChrisJ

Too fast often causes spitting and can cause imbalance problems because those radiators start heating before others. Venting radiators fairly slow compared to the mains allows steam to hit the end of every main before it even starts heading out to the radiators.

Also, venting too fast can cause the steam to take a short cut across the bottom of the radiator and shut the vent rather than going across the top and filling the radiator as it does so. This is what happens on some of mine if I try to go too fast and I've seen it on friend's systems as well. This is with large tube and small tube radiators, not column type.