"skimming" before steam boiler is installed, any benefit?

JudySweetland

Would it make any sense to fill a boiler up before operation and run water through the entire boiler to attempt to get some of the manufacturing oils out of the boiler, or is it the heat that loosens the oils from the boiler? (i know I will have oils to remove once the piping is done, so I understands I will have to skim a few times after intial start up).
Thanks.

KC_Jones

If you haven't seen it already watch this video. Many of us have used this technique and it doesn't eliminate skimming, but definitely helps get the crud out of the boiler. I did mine before I was even finished the install. If you have a floor drain it's easy. If you are like me and have no floor drain then you are using 5 gallon buckets not the end of the world. I attached a picture of how I did it. I worked through a bottom connection, but you could also work through the skim port and just drain out the bottom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1tw9rz-pUk

JudySweetland

Thanks KC sounds like an idea worth doing before installation.

nicholas bonham-carter

One of the added benefits of the drop header is its ability to segegate the oils blown up out of the boiler in the top of the equalizer, so a ball valve mounted at waterline height could drain off those oils in the early days of firing. Think fat separater for thanksgiving turkey gravy!--NBC

Captain Who

I wonder how this would work with a low psi power washer with feeding a TSP solution into the wash water. I'm thinking an electric power washer with a 90deg tip (can you get those?).

KC_Jones

Captain Who said:

I wonder how this would work with a low psi power washer with feeding a TSP solution into the wash water. I'm thinking an electric power washer with a 90deg tip (can you get those?).

My city water pressure is pretty high and on my wand I drilled a 1/8" hole in the end. I took it outside and it shot at least 70-80 feet across my yard. It was almost like having a low pressure washer.

AnnieT

Skimming feels right, even though getting appropriate drop headers, etc. is probably the best thing to do. There's something about seeing that gunk go away. Thank you for posting the video!

rrwitherspoon

If you do not clean it will something bad happen?

nicholas bonham-carter

Peerless suggests boiling some washing soda during the initial cleaning phase, and then skimming slowly for a few hours. I like the "cold water displacement" method, wherein slowly adding cold water will displace the hot washing soda water and push it out the skimming port. When the water out of the port is tap water cold, you can be pretty sure all the old dirty water is gone.
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: some sort of piping to capture the oil every time the boiler steams is needed.
It's such a wate of valuable skilled man-hours- hours and hours of watching a trickle of water. There must be another way. This skimming time could amount to 1/4 of the total man-hours needed for the whole installation. Think of the water waste as well. I'll be frothing at the mouth if I go on about this!
When you sit down to Christmas dinner turkey with gravy, thing how the fat was separated to make the gravy!--NBC

KC_Jones

NBC I hear you. I did think of something relating to your idea. We often tell people, yes I can see the oils in the sight glass. So aren't some oils being trapped there already without adding anything new to the boiler? I have a sight glass blowdown on mine and if I close the bottom sight glass valve while steaming and open the blowdown the steam tends to wash the glass and seemed (in my case) to dump those oils out with it.

nicholas bonham-carter

that's getting on the right track!
I was thinking of some sort of piping in conjunction with a float type LWCO, so the weekly blow down blows the trapped oil into the bucket. probably a larger diameter port would be more effective..--NBC

KC_Jones

Large port sight glass valves? or maybe a larger port on the boiler eccentrically reduced down to the sight glass valve size. Doesn't Slant Fin have some sort of internal skimming built into some of their boilers that then comes out to a 3/4" drain valve. Perhaps some modified version of that tied into the sight glass with blowdown. I keep thinking sight glass for 2 reasons.
1. It's something every boiler already has
2. It gives somewhat of a visual when you have oil to be removed.
We don't all have float LWCO that needs weekly blowdown, although I blow down my sight glass weekly just to keep the muck out of it and do a quick PH test.

vaporvac

SF does on some of their models, but I don't know which (just not miy Intrepids). It may be the Galaxy, judging from their wacky skim instructions. I've looked at their various install pdfs, etc., but see no mention made or any schematics showing the internals.

NJPlumbing

I worked with an "Old Timer" that told me he never got paid for a steam boiler. He went back and poured 4 quarts of oil through the safety. Think they ever got that oil out? :-)

NJPlumbing

I worked with an "Old Timer" that told me he never got paid for a steam boiler. He went back and poured 4 quarts of oil through the safety. Think they ever got that oil out? :-)

Captain Who

KC_Jones said:

We don't all have float LWCO that needs weekly blowdown, although I blow down my sight glass weekly just to keep the muck out of it and do a quick PH test.

What pH do you shoot for and what do you use to adjust it? I now have a digital pH meter and sodium hydroxide (caustic soda), so I'm ready to go. I guess I'm going to shoot for a pH of 10.2. The last time I checked it which was a couple weeks ago I got (with pH hydrion paper) a pH of around 6.0, which is shockingly acidic.

Boiler is now around 10 years old and I'm starting to get nervous that I may have been adding too much water all this time due to slightly late closing/leaky varivalves. This is the first year that I'm attempting to keep a log of how much water I add (estimated based upon sight glass before and after).

KC_Jones

Generally between 9-10 is where I like mine to be. I think there is a perfect PH, but keeping it exactly at one spot would be tough. You also have to monitor boiler function to make sure it doesn't foam which can happen if it goes too high. You should know if it is by the erratic sight glass it can cause. If you search around on the site you will find plenty of discussion on this topic. Some don't believe in water treatment some do. It's one of those "hot topics".

Captain Who

Thanks. I did do a search previously and found someone was adamant about 9.5 being best. The article I posted link to said 10.2 optimal for corrosion in the boiler. I don't know if that will produce foaming.....guess I'll find out. Since pH is logarithmic, 10 is 10x more alkaline than 9 (or 10x the H+ concentration). I think that's amazing! Article:

https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/6088/Boiler_Water_ocr.pdf?sequence=1

https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/the-importance-ph-in-steam-boiler-water/

fixitguy

Many of you will disagree, but I dont skim any more. I clean all new threads with mineral spirits, and use a diatomaceous earth product that I wont name that additionally turns the water green when clean and orange when dirty. I never have a bad or noisy boil. Call me a convert.

SWEI

fixitguy said:

a diatomaceous earth product that I wont name that additionally turns the water green when clean and orange when dirty.

Why not name it?

nicholas bonham-carter

is it Squick?
I would be concerned about the Squick settling on the bottom of the sections, and solidifying.--NBC

fixitguy

Steam Clean, by Com Star, from College Point NY. Buy Locally!

nicholas bonham-carter

Whether it's Beam Clean by Porn Star or Squick, that's a nice solid mass to settle down to the bottom, and reduce the heat transfer. Cleaning the pipes is a very good idea, and probably makes your cleaning so successful.--NBC

Mark N

Nick, do you proof read before you post?

nicholas bonham-carter

Always
These diatoms in both those products used to live in the sea, so I wonder if they could have some chlorides in them.--NBC

Mark N

Well you posted Beam Clean by Porn Star, and the product is Steam Clean by Com Star. Diatom skeletons are made of silica.

Fred

Judy, How is this install going? let us know.

JudySweetland

Fred said:

Judy, How is this install going? let us know.

Fred, thanks for asking! The install is a marathon! Could be the longest steam boiler install ever. I will post pics this Friday on this thread. I've got the gas piping, and tying in a 1" return and the 1.5" supply left. I am installing 3 gorton #2 vents also. Can't wait to get it up and steaming.

Fred

Great! We look forward to seeing those pictures! Have a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

JudySweetland

Fred said:

Great! We look forward to seeing those pictures! Have a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

You too Fred, here are a couple of pics. Let me know if u see something amiss or that could be done better. Thanks much, Judy

nicholas bonham-carter

Check the pitch of the water heater vent into the boiler vent.
might be an optical illusion. Boiler piping looks good otherwise.--NBC

Fred

Looking good! I know you'll be glad when this job is done!

JudySweetland

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Check the pitch of the water heater vent into the boiler vent.
might be an optical illusion. Boiler piping looks good otherwise.--NBC

NBC, thank you for checking in and having a look, the pitch of both is good the photos are decieving, but I appreciate the sharp eye.

Fred said:

Looking good! I know you'll be glad when this job is done!

JudySweetland

Fred said:

Looking good! I know you'll be glad when this job is done!

Fred, I will be sooooo gladddd when this is done! Although I must admit it has been very interesting, a bit frustrating and actually fun to do. I will reiterate that I could not have done it correctly without you and others on this site. Most likely right now I would be redoing what I did wrong after finding out upon start up the system was not working correctly. You have saved me a ton-o-time, an abundance of frustration, days of speaking "french" and perhaps a few temper tantrums that would have made me look much younger emotionally, LOL.

JudySweetland

Hatterasguy said:

JudySweetland said:

You have quite a bit of weight hanging off the left side of the boiler. If you were to replace the Tee at the bottom of the hartford loop with a cross, all that weight could be supported on the floor. Of course, you could try strapping to various ceiling points, but it's never a permanent solution once the strapping stretches over the years.

Hatterasguy, You are right there is a ton of weight. The way I am going to resolve it is with steel (U channel, or strut channel) cut in sections and threaded rod. The U channel will be placed on the bottom of the pipes and 3/8" threaded rod and nuts will to thru the channel and go up to the ceiling joists and attach there with female threaded bolt on connectors. I agree that metal strapping even 26 gauge will stretch against the weight over time. If we have room we can likewise support the piping from the floor up to the pipe. I hadn't though of your suggestion of a Cross fitting, that is a good idea!
Thank you for having a look, I appreciate it.
Judy

JudySweetland

Hatterasguy said:

JudySweetland said:

Hatterasguy, You are right there is a ton of weight.

If you didn't want to remove the Tee at this point, you could probably install another Tee right at the current outlet (presumably for the drain valve). Put a nipple (length is a bit critical..........you want to lift the stack ever so slightly) and a cap on the bottom of the Tee and you're all set.

I will have a look, it might save a lot of time. If I can implement your idea I will still support the piping from above too just not over engineered however!
Thanks, Judy

JudySweetland

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If the ceiling moves downward by the slightest bit (say 1/8"), the entire plumbing load falls back onto the boiler and unloads the 3/8" rods.

True, however I feel fairly confident if the house stays as it won't move as it was built in 1906, but point taken, thanks.

j a_2

Maybe the boilers should be cleaned and flushed better before they leave the manufacture….I personally see no way of avoiding skimming,It was just always part of the job….I always cleaned the pipe we threaded as best I could prior to assembly…I was careful of odors from certain cleaners...

j a_2

I am also a true believer, that there is nothing better than steam heat…Any true installer be it a plumber, HVAC, oil guy or whatever,pretty much thinks the same….There is also nothing simpler than a single pipe steam system….If a boiler is installed correctly, correctly covering all the details , to long to list….and there are heating issues its time to start looking at the system..A lot of times there are hidden issues such as back pitched pipes, clogged pipes or leaking pipes….One thing we found a lot was sagging pipes causing certain radiators not to heat, again any skilled installer will be able to find that…Anytime we saw a new bathroom or kitchen or newly finished basement it raised a red flag….And as I have said before there is more than one way to skim a cat...

JudySweetland

j a said:

Maybe the boilers should be cleaned and flushed better before they leave the manufacture….I personally see no way of avoiding skimming,It was just always part of the job….I always cleaned the pipe we threaded as best I could prior to assembly…I was careful of odors from certain cleaners...

Had i known what i know now i would have cleaned all the new pipe and fittings in a vat of acetone or a similar degreaser. I will be doing alot of skimming/ washing before and after the boiler start up. I am going to use Gerry Gill's video and homemade wand device to pre clean the boiler before start up.

SWEI

A vat of acetone? Yikes! A water-based degreaser would probably do the job, but if you really need a good solvent, try d-limonene.