Old stuff...(musings on old technology and houses)

FranklinD

Hey folks...

My mom is preparing her house for sale over the next year. It saddens me a bit, as my sisters and I grew up in that house, but my mom has been there by herself for the last 11 years now, and is ready for something smaller. She and my dad put a lot of work into the house, mainly just to keep it functional over the years. It was built between 1890 and 1896, exact records from that time are spotty and her title abstract contains land claims and deeds dating back to the 1870's. One of these days I would love to go through and photograph every page, as there are plat maps and planning records for our city (Superior, WI) dating back to before much of anything was here. They plotted the city to be the next Chicago, but obviously it didn't turn out that way.

There aren't a lot of the 'first generation' houses left in town, at least that haven't been seriously updated. There are also strangely few residential steam systems in town given its age. But lots of gravity hot water. Her system was original except for an oil burner upgrade until 1997, when they updated the boiler to a WM 176k btu Nat Gas unit and added a circulator. It is a pricey house to heat in our -20 winters. It is 3 full finished floors, 7 bedroom, 1.5 bath (the half bath was added in an old kitchen pantry on the first floor in the late 80's), and a limestone block foundation. My parents stripped most of the previously painted baseboards and refinished the floors, and in 1992 added a 'family room' addition to the first floor, extending the garage by 6 ft (it was a 'carriage' garage), and extending the basement to under the new room (the doorway shows the original foundation to be about 3.5 feet thick). There is a lot of plaster in 'poor to fair' condition, but my parents always felt it gave the house character...or, "Don't sweat the small stuff".

I've been thinking about making her an offer on it, as my family and I live across town in a house built 1910-1912 or so. However, I doubt she would sell to me, not wanting to 'dump' a never-ending project on me...but I do love the house. I have a lot of old pictures that show the old boiler and stuff, and the coal room and parts of the old automatic stoker that were piled in there.

I don't know when the heating system was installed, if it was when the house was built or a few years down the road. A couple radiators don't match, and are definitely newer, but several are American Radiator. 90% of the piping is exposed, but neatly tucked away in corners etc.

The 'Silent Automatic' tin plate hung in her basement behind the coal boiler forever. By the time I came along in '82, there was an oil gun firing into the bottom of the coal boiler. My mom, a few years back, had the underground oil tank dug up and removed in preparation of selling the house, and it turned into quite the ordeal, as it turned out to be a 3000 gallon tank. No leakage, luckily. The pump and reservoir are still hanging on the foundation wall where the pipes came in from it, though....I'll grab pictures of that this week.

Thanks for giving me a read...I find the historical aspect of heating to be fascinating and my wife is tired of hearing about it all.

BobC

That is a look back into the history of heating technology. make sure that gets preserved

My sister bought an old farm house in Easton. Mass back in the early seventies, town records stated the house was older than 1880. The upstairs was a warren of small (7X10) rooms, we took down some of those walls to open things up.

While doing that I found old newspaper under some linoleum that covered new evidence on the Lincoln assassination of the previous year. It crumbled as soon as you tried to move it - it's shame i didn't have a camera with me.

History has always fascinated me, I usually walk the beach every morning and I pass by the site of the old Quincy farm. That is where John Adams (with his ten year old son John Quincy) embarked on a ship (Feb 1778) going to France to get support for our war against Britain. Can you imagine what it was like to sail across the Atlantic in February fighting the gales and trying to evade the British navy? Had he been caught he would have been hung as a traitor.

Bob

JeffM

Old houses are great, especially when they haven't lost all traces of their origins. I live in a similar (but smaller) Victorian from 1890 which still has evidence of the coal heating that was first used (it's steam now, still old but I doubt original). The place was built before the city sewer ran down the street so had a privy out back. I've got newspapers from 1932 in the loft of the carriage house.

DanHolohan

Thanks for the great read, Franklin. I enjoyed it and I especially enjoyed your enthusiasm for the old place. My best to you and your family.

billtwocase

Ah. Timkens. I enjoyed working on them. Clean and quiet. Can't beat those old cast radiators either. We have many old homes here on Cape from the late 1600's on up. I am always amazed on the construction know how from back them. Not so fond of the crawl spaces though

Jamie Hall

The place I live in and care for is such a place. They are work -- no getting around that -- but it is tremendously rewarding. I am very slowly restoring it; parts of it to 1872, when my family first moved in (that part was built in about 1810 on a 1750s foundation) and all the additions are being restored to "like new" (1880 to 1893) condition. Original materials and workmanship where possible. It originally had no central heat. One addition had gravity hot air, now rusted out unfortunately, and steam heat was added in1930. I have all the heating records from new on the steam system. Running water was added in 1910.

We now run the place as a house museum, open by appointment only. Anyone interested, give me an e-mail and come on by!

DanHolohan

Jamie Hall said:

The place I live in and care for is such a place. They are work -- no getting around that -- but it is tremendously rewarding. I am very slowly restoring it; parts of it to 1872, when my family first moved in (that part was built in about 1810 on a 1750s foundation) and all the additions are being restored to "like new" (1880 to 1893) condition. Original materials and workmanship where possible. It originally had no central heat. One addition had gravity hot air, now rusted out unfortunately, and steam heat was added in1930. I have all the heating records from new on the steam system. Running water was added in 1910.

We now run the place as a house museum, open by appointment only. Anyone interested, give me an e-mail and come on by!

Thanks, Jamie. Love to see some pics.

FranklinD

I certainly do love history in general, but the mechanical systems of old homes are just plain fascinating. Even the way the old knob and tube wiring was run was an art form. I should be over there again tonight or tomorrow, and I will load up with pictures.

The note about old newspapers is interesting...when my folks had the addition put on the house, the second floor bedroom windows had to be shortened to accommodate the new room's roofline. When they pried off the windowsill in the master bedroom, they found 2 library books on the joys of healthy living dating from around 1918, and a slip showing they were overdue at that time.

I've found a few hand written doctor's notes tucked into places between floor boards and baseboards in my house, one dated September 1931, done in beautifully careful looping script.

KC_Jones

This has nothing to do with heating, but does have to do with old houses. I tore down an old pocket door wall in my house. The pocket doors were long gone, but the hardware was still there. I have attached pictures. Apparently this hardware is fairly unusual. It's called the Payson Pendulum. It looks strange, but it basically gives perfect horizontal movement without a track. I mounted one and experimented and it works flawlessly and absolutely SILENT. I found a tiny bit of info online about them, but it just seems like the idea never caught on. I saved the hardware and screws and might use it for something some day....though I don't know what yet. Those dead men were pretty smart for sure! As far as things I have found...how about 20 pint whiskey bottles from prohibition...one still had a partial prescription on the bottle.

FranklinD

Wow! Those are incredible. My house and my folk's house both have doors between kitchen and dining room that swing both ways, and the hinges have some sort of swing-deadener spring built into them. I'll add them to the list of pictures to take...definitely original.

I've also gone through and cleaned, adjusted, and oiled all the original mortise style lock assemblies in my house. Interestingly enough, several doors are keyed differently, where at my folk's, they're all keyed the same. All of mine are dated 1910.

Every time I go in their basement, I stare in wonder at the 8x8 posts, center beam, and full 2" by 12" floor joists.

BobC

Those come from a time when the country was bursting with people looking to find a better way to do something. Each invention stood on the shoulders of the last.

Now everything gets modeled in a computer and usually built overseas. We have decoupled the process and our ability to innovate will slowly slide down hill.

Modeling is a good way to understand the way something should work. Putting something together and watching it work allows one imagination to see things that were not expected and that is where the next idea often comes from.

Bob

KC_Jones

@BobC as a designer myself I wouldn't necessarily agree with all those statements. The computer is just a change of tool from the drafting board of years past. In my father and grandfathers day they did it with pencil and paper now I use a computer. Other than that change I don't see how you can say we don't model? I model everyday. Yes some of that modeling is done in the computer, but I still have to analyze and know what is going on and make the final decision. Then we take a design into the real world and build it, then put it into motion and most of the time destroy it to see what it can do. This can never be replaced and honestly where you get the idea that real world modeling and R&D have gone away is beyond me. I have been a designer for 16 years and I know a bunch of others at different companies who are designers and all of them do real world testing and R&D I have never heard nor seen a mechanical product of any kind go from computer straight to production. I will agree with one thing...too much of our money and knowledge being shipped overseas.

jumper

Decades ago my friend had rich customers in Rosedale district of Toronto,Canada. Some of those mansions had unique heating systems. We never found out where they came from.

BobC

i will admit that I have been out of harness for many years now but what I was seeing before leaving the design world (electrical - power supplies specifically) was the tendency to design something and hand it off to a contract manufacturer. Sometime later somebody would call and say that great deal they got (our price was higher) didn't seem to be working out.

After going over the design on one 10.000v supply that had a 0.1% regulation spec (against load, line, and temperature) I put a couple of them on the bench and found something was strange. the output would jump around by about 12v with no obvious reason. I then got a unit that did not have this problem and compared the two, the only difference I could see was a different 1N4150 diode across the base of the viewing chain. The bad ones were clear the good ones were blue or orange.

It turned out the clear diodes were light sensitive, if light fell them the leakage would increase and that was changing the output voltage by 10-12v. In the field, these supplies were mounted on a bulkhead and subject to variable light levels.the contract manufacturer had changed vendors on that part and while the diode was fine for 95% of all applications it just didn't work on this design. We fixed them by placing a drop of black epoxy on any clear diode in that position.

the contract manufacturer never saw the problem because of the way they tested the unit. If you want to retain control over something it's best to keep things close - these were being built 500 miles away and other similar problems were built in the PRC, try explaining a problem to someone who has a limited understanding of your language and diit for me understanding them.

Some things are simple enough that you can farm them out others not so much. I'm glad to hear your company takes such care with the design and the proofing of it.

Bob

KC_Jones

Honestly I have seen the types of things you speak of with purchased materials and contractors. My current company does not use contractors for anything. The last company I worked for (electric power utility) used a ton of them and we always had issues...along with the extremely high cost of hiring them. Just to be clear the contractors I am talking about are ones that did the work we did in house already. They would hire them for peak demand instead of working us on OT or hiring more people because it was cheaper. Our in house cost was 400 per drawing the contractors (when I left) charged 2k per drawing...and that was "cheaper". I agree we need some better quality control in some areas and convince people you can make more money that way. The company I work for now (OEM manufacturer in the industrial HVAC/Refrigeration market) is employee owned. We don't cut corners we test and test and test everything we sell. We are known for the best customer service in the industry and they take extremely good care of us. Our profits are off the charts. Our competition during the recession closed plants and laid people off, we built plant expansions and showed huge profits. Not bragging just like to point out to people more money can be made with a better mouse trap...not a cheaper one.

icesailor

Pocket Doors"

The biggest problem I ever found with old pocket doors still in place is how do you get them out or how do you fix them.

I did a house for a designer who built his own house. He put in two outside entrance pocket doors in. Over the years, the rollers wore off, and parts were unavailable. Years later, he had to rip them out and out in normal doors.

I worked with another designer who designed really strange houses. Pocket doors were the solutions for all his bad designs. Once the wallboard went up, there was no getting them out for fixing. Unless you were willing to rip open one side of a wall.

Knob & Tube Wiring:

You can never ground it and make it safe.

Old Sparky's say it is the best though. Except for the grounding.

Ever see one of those bit braces with the leather strap so you could put your shoulder into it to push when hand drilling with a bit and brace? I once had an almost complete set of Russell Jennings wood auger bits. Keep them sharp and develop your auger bit sharpening technique. My bits and pocket knives were and still are, razors. I won't let anyone use my Buck 110 with the Right Handed blade (Lefties can't use it to sharpen their pencils) for fear they might cut their fingers off.

KC_Jones

Ice I will reference one of your favorite topics....cheap. If one puts in cheap pocket doors you can't get them back out. I have pocket doors in my house and I take them out all the time and it's modern hardware not antique. It's about not being "cheap" on what you buy. I take mine out clean the track and rollers and add a couple drops of oil every year. Silent smooth and will last a long time, but I paid big money for those tracks and rollers. I have my brace and bit in one of the top drawers in my workbench, still use it when I need big holes as I think it cuts faster than a hole saw. I agree about sharp tools, my wood chisels will shave the hair off my face at all times....the sharper the tool the less effort I need to put out to use it.

icesailor

Years ago, when I was carpentering, I worked with an old retired Newfoundland Fisherman. He handed me his pocket knife to use and said "Careful, it's sharp. A good sharp knife can save your life aboard of a boat". Like get your foot caught in a net going over the side in a Eastern Rigged dragger.

No more Eastern Rig draggers anymore.

KC_Jones

My grandfather used to take his tools to a sharpening company their slogan "We sharpen everything, but wits". I always liked that slogan.

icesailor

Sounds like the sharpeners were sharp wits.

FranklinD

Finally! Got some more pics of the 'home place' where I grew up. They're in no particular order, sorry about that. The original oil reservoir for the 'Silent Automatic' burner is still on the wall, I tried for a few close-ups. There's a pic of the 'new' (circa 1997) Weil-McLain boiler (Gross input 176k -- yikes) and of some of the gravity piping in the basement. Creative uses of fittings.

There are also a couple pics of the original coal burning fire place and of the original leaded-glass windows in the front room area. The decorative tiles around the fireplace might date back to the construction of the house (1890's) or were maybe added during an extensive renovation/expansion in the 1920's which changed the first floor layout and added a carriagehouse and 2nd story deck to the West side of the house.

The base of the masonry chimney is behind the boiler, and has the original cleanout hatches in place for all 4 flues (kitchen stove, living room fireplace, boiler, and there was a coal stove in the main bedroom of the 3rd floor as well).

My folks did have the boiler/HWH flue relined with stainless when they had the boiler replaced...since that time, no fires in the fireplace (too small for wood fires anyway). There are still pie plates over the flues in the kitchen and the attic bedroom.

She keeps talking about selling, and I keep offering to buy, but I know she won't allow that to happen...she sees it as a money pit (and she's probably right), but they just don't build them like that anymore.

Enjoy!

ChrisJ

Thank you for sharing. I enjoyed the pictures!

However the new boiler is piped completely wrong.

Gordy

Why is that Chris? Bypass piping. P/S

ChrisJ

ChrisJ said:

Thank you for sharing. I enjoyed the pictures!

However the new boiler is piped completely wrong.

Gordy said:

Why is that Chris?

Because I'm a dope and thought it was a steam boiler. I just noticed the water pump.

Don't mind me, please carry on.

Gordy

Actually WM requires valved bypass piping for large water content gravity systems to prevent low return water temps. Or P/s. So you were not wrong

Gordy

Toot toot shhh shhh woo wooo

Jamie Hall

Dan -- I'd love to post some pictures, but I wouldn't know where to begin. Best I can do is to extend a cordial invitation to any Wallies who might be wandering through northwestern Connecticut to send me a note and them come on by!

FranklinD

Heh. About the piping...oh how it drives me nuts every time I walk by. No bypass on it. Though by the time the house needs real heat the tridicator is always minimum 140, usually 150 or so while running. It costs her a small fortune to heat that house. I've talked to her about a properly sized modcon, but since her time there is limited, she's not going to put the money into it. She has it properly serviced every year by a trustworthy local company, and the only issue she's ever had was that the gas meter outside died last winter during a cold snap.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: out of the 20 or so boilers I've seen in this town, I have yet to see one with a bypass. Apparently local installers never got that memo OR read the manual.

I got into a few lively debates with my installer last year (I was away for 3 weeks and my wife had to deal with them), and I returned home to my new boiler piped without a bypass as well. He felt it wasn't needed as the manual showed it as 'optional', and since it can accept 110* return water (I have a 100 year old house as well, about half the size as mom's). I've computed my system volume to be right around 95 gallons.

So come this spring, when it's time for an indirect hwh, I'll have some $ set aside to repipe the way I think it should be... Really should only require a valve or two and a few feet of 1-1/4" copper.

She's got so much cool old stuff in the basement over there that I can never seem to photograph it all. On the 3rd floor, too.

Gordy

Main thing is that the boiler sees plus 135 while its soaking after a heat call. Thermal shock is not much of an issue unless it's not a cold start boiler, or really low temp zone calling with a hot boiler in the middle of a cycle.

Base board does not require bypass piping per manual. Only high content gravity, or radiant. In the end bypass piping is a poor mans way p/s is the only 100% guarantee of boiler protection.

Really bypass piping with throttling valves only devirts a majority of the cooler return water.

FranklinD

Righty-oh on that. My boiler is running a temp of 140 average to keep the house at 69* with a windy -8 outside right now. My concern are the shoulder seasons when it rarely gets above 100. I think I'm kind of in the gray area between too much volume and just right volume. But I'll cross that bridge this spring I guess. Plenty of time to think about it and come up with a design, of course with the fantastic knowledge base found here!

icesailor

You want a By-Pass?

Cut the supply and return off above the boiler and circulator. Get a Taco "I" Series 4 way with ODR. Connect the supply and return to the primary side of the valve. Connect the secondary side to the secondary side of the 4-way valve. Add a circulator. Wire it. Add and connect the provided sensors by zip tying them to the pipes and cover them with insulation. Install and connect the ODR sensor. Set the DIP switches so that the boiler maintains 120 degree water. Turn it on.

The 4-way acts as a by-pass. It never allows cold water into the boiler unless it is mixed through the valve and the water in the boiler is always at or above this set point. If the ODR sensor/4-way decide that the system needs 115 degree water running in the system, the boiler can be 150 degrees, but the only water going through the system will be 115 degrees. All radiators will be the same temperature.

The nicest thing you could ever do to a boiler like that.

Almost as good as fresh sweet corn, 5 minutes off the stalk and directly in the pot of boiling water. Almost. But not quite.

John Mills_5

I grew up in a 1911 house, moved in when I was 2 months old. It had a nice National US Radiator gas boiler by then but the coal chute was in the next room and there was evidence of the oil tank vent & fill on the wall. I'm guessing it had a snowman like the one in the picture. Sure would like to have seen it. The boiler worked great. Dad was taught to keep it 135 in mild weather and 165 in cold weather. You can see in the boiler room ceiling where they busted out the plaster and lathe to hang the expansion tank when they closed it up. In 1989 the gas valve stuck open and had that sucker rocking & rolling. Dad, who barely knew which end of a screwdriver to hold, somehow found the manual gas shut off. The valve was replaced but damage was done, she split open the next fall and was replaced with an HE6, piped improperly of course. Going from a silent boiler to the roar of that sucker was annoying. Couple years later they moved out of state, the "comfort" of forced air electric furnace was even more annoying.