how can a layperson spot signs of an old in-ground oil tank for a steam system?

DairyGodmother

Hi. Selling my house in CT and a potential buyer has asked if we have knowledge of an in-ground tank. We don't, but now I'm intrigued. Here is what I know:
- Our current above-ground oil tank is at least 30 years old (maybe much older) and 275 gallons; it is defunct as we converted to gas and I'm removing it. I call it the big black cow, its an old iron cold-war looking thing!
- My house was built in 1925 in a seaside area (not sure if that matters, but maybe in-ground are avoided?)
- I have read that it is possible was that it used to be coal-fired
- basement is unfinished, has high ceilings and you can see all the structure/mechanicals very easily, foundation is rock and cement (I'm not sure, some type of mortar holding the rocks together)
-
What I'm asking you all today is there an easy way for me to scout around my basement to look for signs of an old pipe or feed into an old boiler. What am I looking for?

if this is not an easy question forgive me - it is worth a try.

thank you kindly

SlamDunk

You may look for snipped or capped 3/8" copper tubing penetrating the foundation somewhere. If you do not have knowledge of a tank you may want to leave it at that and let the potential buyer perform due diligence. If there is an in ground tank it could be painful to have it removed.

Bob Bona_4

It's possible. Look around for small copper pipe stubs in a foundation wall or floor. Rarely do you see iron (3/8-3/4) but that could be an indication. Highly unlikely the town has any record going back 30 years plus. Even a patch job might hide old pipes underneath.

Not likely to see any remnants outside unless some comedian left a vent or fill pipe sticking up.

Or...inside tanks were used from the start.

Jamie Hall

The pipe stubs might not be copper. They might be half inch or one inch iron too.

Best approach is to honestly say you don't know -- and let the buyer beware. If curiousity gets the better of you, though, they usuallly will show up well with a buried iron finder used by someone who is good at it, like a Schonstedt probe. Not one of the beachcombing contraptions, and not an amateur. But you really don't want to know about it.

FranklinD

My mother recently had a 3000 (not a typo) gallon in ground tank removed from her property. It was huge and had a manhole buried 12" under grade for inspection (didn't know that til it was dug up).

Inside the house, two pipes penetrated the foundation wall about 4' off the floor (18" below grade). Both steel/iron. They fed into a 3-4 gallon reservoir with a small pump of some sort, hanging on the wall, and from there a feed line (1/2" copper) went down to the floor and was buried in the slab for 8 feet to the oil burner on the ancient boiler (converted coal).

The reservoir/pump is still on the wall. The tank removal was a process. It had about 3" of sludge on the bottom, which was all scooped out and then steam cleaned and pumped out again. They attempted to lift it with a bobcat but ended up cutting it into 3 pieces to remove. The soil test from underneath came back clean, thank god. All red clay around here. It was pretty expensive, but not nearly as expensive as it could have been if soil remediation was needed. I think it cost as much as her new boiler and piping did in '97.

And yes, she had it done because she plans to sell the house in a few years. She switched to nat gas in 1997, and had the tank removed I think a year or two ago.

ChicagoCooperator

I'd leave it too (it may well have been inside or above ground if you have very rocky soil). My building likely has an abandoned tank underneath a driveway in front of our garages - we're trying to avoid finding out if we have to remove it, assuming it's there.

icesailor

@FranklinD:

Your mother probably had a house that had a coal to oil conversion using a Timkin Rotary burner into the coal space. A pump to pump from the tank to the reservoir, and the carburetor in the sump kept constant pressure on the fuel flow. The house is very old is the key. You might even find the place where they dumped the coal in.

icesailor

@DairyGodmother:

Have you asked any local oil companies if the house ever had a UST? Ask any or all.
If your outside tank is old and above ground, there was probably always an above ground tank.

Post a photo of the boiler and burner. Even back in the days of horses and scoops, and third world back hoes, it was still an expensive project to install a UST. Far cheaper to just do a 275 gallon above ground.

FranklinD

Ice --

Oh, yes, the coal room is still there. As is the one on the neighbor's place next door. Her whole block has easements between every house (shared driveways) for coal deliveries. Her house originally had some sort of very fancy automatic coal feeder and stoker, some bits of which are still piled in the far corner of the coal room, which measures about 8' wide, 10' long, and 7' high. It's a good sized home for this area. She and the neighbor still have their original coal doors on the foundations too. The UST was buried right around the corner of the foundation from the coal chute. I still remember them buying 1000-1500 gallons of oil every fall. And that was in the mid-90's.

I have the original tin placard, about 2ft by 3', that was on the wall behind the old boiler for decades...it's now in my basement. It refers to the oil burner as the 'Silent Automatic' and has all the burner startup/shut down and safety instructions on it. And the installer's name and phone number (with the old school telephone exchange letters) written in pencil at the bottom. Not sure when it was done.

I keep meaning to look thru her title abstract again. It's 8" thick and goes back to 1871 when 'land barons' in New York were buying large land parcels here because we were supposed to become the next Chicago. There are some very cool and recognizable signatures on some of those documents. The land passed back and forth numerous times before the house was built in 1892 or so. And the house was auctioned on the courthouse steps 3x prior to 1910.

There is zero mention of the oil tank in there, but there IS the original bill of materials for the construction and finishings for the house....and a bill from a wholesaler in Milwaukee for the boiler and radiators, plus a kitchen range, chimney parts (dampers and such), and a coal stove that I believe went on the 3rd floor for the 'help'. I don't know if they were made there or shipped through there, but it's very interesting. I'll try to take a few pictures of those docs and start a new thread here with them. Very cool stuff.

vaporvac

I wonder if she had The Iron Fireman auto coal dispenser. I still have one of those in front of the coal boiler behemoth back-up boiler. Please post a pic of the placard. We love that kind of stull!

icesailor

If you remember there being 1,000 to 1.500 gallon deliveries in the Fall, there had to be a big buried oil tank there.

"Silent Automatic" is the name used by Timkin Rotary burners. They were low pressure and really interesting. The oil came out of a rotating tube in the middle of the hearth and hit these little stainless steel plates with a piece of asbestos like rope on it. The fuel vapor on the rope was ignited by an electrode that came up through the hearth. If scale fell into the tube, it could short out the spark. They were really cool. Once they fired off, it was very hard to hear them running. 50 years ago, I used to see a lot of them. It was even hard to see them running. They burned blue. The hearths often cracked and that was the end of them.

I hope that you don't have a UST. Get a 6' ground probe. The tanks weren't usually buried very deep below the surface. If you have an idea where it was, probe around and see if you can hit something. You can pay someone from Dig Safe to look for it.

There are tank removal companies that specialize in tank removal. Don't get into denial. Its like a tumor on your leg. It won't go away. The sooner you know if one is there, the better off you are.

In Massachusetts, if the removal of the tank will cause a structure to fail (like fall in the hole), the Fire/Tank inspector can allow it to stay if it is dug up and exposed, all product and sludge is removed, and the tank is inspected for leaks. If it passes, the inspection, it can be filled with clean, screened sand and left buried in place. Twice I was allowed to do that. I don't know what State you are in. If there is a old local oil company in your town, I'd be asking them if they know anything. You never know until you ask. Its going to be close and opposite that oil sump on the wall. If you dig outside, you might find the oil lines. They might run to the tank. They might have been cut off when the tank was removed. You'll have to find out.

FranklinD

Vapor: I'll start a new thread for that after supper. I can't upload photos from my phone which is a bummer. The system at my moms house always intrigued me as it is a good example of a very early gravity water system and they are rare around this area. Lots of systems from 1920 and forward, very few from the turn of the century. Mine is 1914. Sadly, almost zero residential steamers in the area. Look for a new thread soon.

Ice: I kinda hijacked the thread from the OP, giving an example of the tank at my mom's house...she did have it removed a few years ago. They said it was a 3000 gallon tank and it certainly was massive. The oil burner that was there when I was a kid (80's-90's) was definitely not that rotary style. It was a more modern 'gun-style' that broke down spectacularly a few times. But I looked up some stuff on that Silent Automatic and it sure is cool.

icesailor

If you have the reservoir on the wall, and/or pipes on the wall, at one time, it had a Rotary. It was the number one oil conversion for coal boilers/furnaces of the day. It was a while before the high pressure oil burner was developed.

Condoman

In CT the local Fire Marshall is responsible for records and permit for tank removal. You might check with them.

DairyGodmother

OP says Thanks everyone ...I just told them I thought it was coal and to check with the city. I believe it, but I didn't sign anything ;-)