Wm gv90+6 with an indirect hot water tank

Zman

Why do you think you cannot do an indirect with a conventional boiler?
I can't remember the last time a saw a conventional boiler without one...

maybemark

Like i said at the begining, i am not a proffesional at this at all. i assumed you can not put an indirect on a conventional boiler. i didn't know the controls on the boiler aloowed you to do it.
I have cast iron radiators, which i thought did not need as much heat as the indirect tank needs.
I guess i should look into this closer
I do notice that the burnham esc model does have the ability of installing DHW with it. I should also check out other models.
Maybe my plumber is not all that wrong for me, and stick with the standard, v high effeciency.
If i can not afford a proffesional for anual maintance.
All comments would be appreciated
thanks
happy turkey day
mark

icesailor

You guys are going down a bad path.

You do NOT consider a basement that has a boiler and piping in it as an unheated space. The basement is considered at 1/2 the total heat loss as if it was an exposed wall. Like you do with enclosed, unheated knee walls. If the outside temperature is Zero (-0 degrees F') and the inside heated/conditioned space is 70 degrees (70+') then the knee wall space is considered to be at 35 degrees. So, if the knee wall exposed needs 5,000 BTU's to cover the loss, you calculate the loss at 2,500 BTU's.

My last house in Brewster, MA had a 28' X 54' X9' high cellar with a 28' end walk out. The ceilings and all pipes were insulated. I used the cellar as a woodworking shop. In the winter, no matter how cold and windy it was out, it never went below 50 degrees inside. If I was doing something with Epoxy that needed a minimum temperature, I turned on a gas salamander type heater. None of the foundation walls were insulated. When I couldn't fond my hooded sweatshirt in the house, I found it in the cellar.

If you live in Chicago, and the design low temperature is -24, you will never see -24 in a cellar because no one would be living in the house. All the pipes would be frozen.

maybemark

icesailor
of everyone out giving me suggestions, i feel confident with your input. thank you very much
with everything I wrote, what size and what boiler would you suggest for me?
Is there a way on contacting you directly, if you wouldn't mind?
I would be more than happy to give you my phone number, i just don't want the rest of the world to know it
thanks
happy turkey day
mark

FranklinD

When I did my heat loss, I did compute the basement, but did not enter it into the total. I only did it for curiosity's sake.

The way I looked at it was that there were no heat emitters down there, other than the exposed piping and the boiler itself. During the winter, even at -20 ~ -30, it's 55* down there all the time. Both with the older monster boiler and with this newer, WAY better insulated unit. The walls are 4 ft below grade and 3 ft above, concrete block construction, foil bubble insulation on the inside from the sill plates down to the grade level, and joist cavities and sill plates sealed. Otherwise bare walls and floor with zero outside insulation. It's an old house.

I basically figured it as installing the boiler into an unconditioned space, figuring the 10k btu difference between the net and IBR ratings (78k vs 68k) would be what's given up to the basement ambient. It's not really 'lost', as it's heating the basement, but it's not warming up my bathroom either.

So the IBR ended up within 3k btu of my 2 main floors' heat loss at design temp. I also am not counting the 3rd floor, despite being a living space, since there are no radiators up there either. No one goes up there in the winter, we use it for storage for now.

A note on the GV: my decision against it was due to the fact that I didn't want the potential issues of cast iron AND a newer condensing boiler rolled into one, complete with dual internal pumps. To me it's overly complex with little benefit. If we had had the money, we would've gone with a Triangle Tube. I had the chance to buy a Prestige Solo 110 that had been installed and removed without ever having been fired, but I never got the whole story and there would've been zero warranty. I kinda wish I had now.

I ended up with this Burnham, which is a cast iron boiler with modern electronic controls and ODR capability, but that capability is GREATLY dependent on how the boiler is plumbed and what heat emitters you have. That I learned the hard way. But in the end, that's what we had to go with...a re-roof that turned into a massive undertaking derailed our boiler budget and we couldn't wait any longer.
But I'm not displeased with it...our gas consumption dropped about 35% compared to our 30 year old VHE. And the thing is SILENT compared to our old boiler, despite being induced draft.

As a homeowner and tinkerer, I'd recommend against the GV. I just think there are better units out there, and if you're looking for the efficiency that condensing gets you, it's pointless to not also have the modulating ability. Kind of all or nothing in my opinion. Had I gone that route, even now, at 0*f, it'd probably be modulating at around 50% and condensing nicely, as my radiators right now are running about 120* average. Hindsight. Should've taken out a small loan.

In regards to the 'fudge' on heat losses: yes, I believe the software is right. A better statement for me to make would've been that I wasn't fully able to fill in every detail they wanted...I don't fully know what's in every wall for insulation, some rooms have 2 new windows and 2 old, and so on, therefore any 'fudge' was on my part. But I erred on the cautious side and I think I was TOO cautious.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Zman

The boiler does not have to have special controls to run an indirect. The temp of the water required for the heat and the indirect are dependent on the emitter surface area and and the temp difference you are trying to achieve.
With an conventional boiler, you need to figure it so you do not get sustained return water temps below 130 or you will damage it. Usually setting the boiler temps at 150+ will get you there. If you select an indirect with the right sized exchanger it will work just fine at those temps. You can get domestic priority by using a simple zone circulator controller.

Given that you have very large radiators, it may be appropriate to do some sort of mixing with boiler protection if you go that route.

By the time you do all that, You just made another argument for a firetube HE unit.

You pose an interesting question with the basement heat loss. With your present system, you are heating it through boiler inefficiency. Your boiler is also increasing your air infiltration rate because it is pulling combustion air from the basement.

I think the basement should be calculated but using a colder indoor air temp. The heat loss calculator also does not account very well for the benefits of thermal mass. It is penalizing you for brick walls which really have some benefits.

All this being said, I would install a prestige 110 using outdoor reset and an indirect tank per manufactures instructions and never look back. Even if it is slightly oversized, with a single zone system it will modulate to match the load quite nicely.
Who knows, you might teach your old school plumber some new tricks.

Carl

maybemark

carl
I originally did calculate my basement in the heat loss calculator, with an indor temp for 55 degrees, it ended up making a default for the whole house at 55 degrees. maybe i did something wrong.
The prestige does look great, my fear is anual maintance, which i was hoping to do myself, and i am not a proffesional. In the manual, they say many times, use a proffestional for mainance. I sometimes wonder, how proffesional some of thes techs out there really prffestionals
happy turkey
mark

SWEI

Every boiler we have installed that is based on the original (and now the new) TT fire tube heat exchanger design has been checked at one year and been found to be running clean and proper. We are now servicing them on two-year intervals and have yet to find anything seriously wrong unless they were improperly sized or installed (short cycling is particularly hard on ignitors.)

maybemark

swei
what boiler and size would you recomend for me?

SWEI

The WHN085 I suggested above would still be a good choice. Its minimum firing rate (far more important than the maximum in my book) is only 17k, which will let it run nice long cycles most of the heating season.

maybemark

17k? my heat loss is over 70k.
Your right, i am not proffesional, and have no idea how tht would be great for me and heat my house .
I will look it over, and still consider it

FranklinD

What SWEI is saying is that for probably 90% of the year, you don't NEED that full capacity of the boiler. Your heat loss is 70k, but at what, -24 outside? It's not that cold all winter. The majority of the time you won't need to fire 70k btu because it's, say, 15* outside, and the house will heat fine at say 40k btu. So the lower the boiler can modulate (change) it's flame, the better. I look at it like an automatic dimmer switch for your heat. With a conventional boiler, its on full blast or not at all.

I hope that helps explain it a little better. Im still learning about it all myself, and it's definitely worthwhile.

maybemark

oh, I understand, very effecient ,i thin the TT is 30, on the low end

maybemark

is there any HE boiler that a proffetion doesn't have to come and do the maintance on it.
That a person that knows how to read and follow instructions might be able to do it?
I guess i am hoping to do anual maintance, if it's not beyond me, rather than spend a couple hundred bucks each season to make sure that everything is proper

Rich_49

Mark,
All boilers need some maintenance . With proper treatment and additives to any boiler it will make the situation better . This unit does not have a heat exchanger that will easily be restricted . The heat exchanger is ample in size and diameter and the heating water is outside of it , this enables it to require much less maintenance . Again , all boilers should be maintained regularly , how much maintenance is another thing altogether . In a house such as yours dirt seperation would be a must with any boiler . Magnetic dirt seperation even better . Caleffi makes very good stuff and Fernox makes a seperator which is also very good and works well with their F1 and F5 additives that do not require much effort to add to the system . I recommend this boiler , I think any plumber would like , it's a pleasure to install and was made just for this type of situation . http://www.htproducts.com/pioneer.html

icesailor

@Zman:

Carl,

You're far smarter than I am. Maybe I'm more observant. I have never walked into a cellar with a boiler in it that wasn't warmer than the outside. Because of heat loss through the structure. Like I said, my last home had a large full cellar with the boiler and the piping. 5 zones of baseboard and a storage tank fed from the Tankless on an oil boiler. All the pipes, hot and cold were insulated with Armaflex. The floors were completely covered with 12" Fiberglass insulation between the 12" I-Joists. There was no insulation on any outside foundation walls. The whole end of the cellar was open to ground level with a full height (6'8") by 7'+ barn type doors with no insulation and another standard 36" outside door with a storm door on it. The spaces between the doors were 2" X 6" framed walls with R-19 insulation in the stud pockets. Yet the "unconditioned" space never went below 50 degrees. So much so that I couldn't wear my standard winter gear hooded insulated sweatshirt while working. Where did the heat come from? Radiated through the floor and the insulation.

My experience is with Massachusetts. They are always having "code experts" putting in place ridiculous rules based on Junk Science. Like teaching that man walked on the earth 6,000 years ago with the Dinosaurs. So, they require that new buildings must insulate exposed foundations from the footing up to grade. But NOT to grade to the sill plate. (They tried that and it gave termites a direct path into houses) Where we should all know that the maximum heat loss is from the exposed grade. Not below. I never once allowed for heat loss through a floor to a cellar or unconditioned space that was open to a cellar. I was never caught short. There are far more effective ways to "fudge" heat loss. If you do a careful heat loss, live in an area where they list 20 degrees as the maximum design day, drop it to 15 degrees. That way, the whole structure is still balanced.

The first heat loss program I bought was an old DOS Manual J program written by some guy in Florida in the late 1990's. It had issues and I figured out how to work around it. It would even calculate your fuel usages and different types of fuels. But it was a Air Conditioning/Forced Hot Air Program. Where they wanted to know about roof overhands (for shading) and building orientation for solar gain. We're talking Hydronic Heating here? Who gives a RRR about Solar gain in the winter in the middle of the night when it is coldest. We'll take all we can get. Orientation? The Sun doesn't shine at night. IBR was designed for HOT WATER AND STEAM. Not drafty air. I bought a lot of programs. All based on Manual J. Everyone of them sucked. I still did it the old long method with my IBR books. It was far easier. And if you get an odd building (all my buildings were odd), it was easy to modify something and go back and forth from the "Detailed" and "Modern" method of calculations. Erasers on pencils are a wonderful tool along with the work sheets. Many of us pushed hard for some form of the IBR program. Someone made one but it was expensive and awful. Something about IBR/The Hydronics Institute owning the rights to the design. When they collapsed, someone designed the current Windows version that Slant Fin uses.

It doesn't much matter. The more you know, the less work you get. Because the Know-Nothings always have a better lie than the truth.

maybemark

icesailor
I am very much considering your idea on the whn85. I am also taking note that a magnetic dirt seperator would be important for my old system. Please correct me if I'm wrong, i use the dirt seperator instead of a y-strainer?
My basement is finished, but, i don't heat it other than what comes from the old burnham 208. This unit is 35 years old, and is way way oversized. Plus i imagine i get heat from the pipes, which i am thinking of insulating. Or would you not suggest it.
I did leave out the basement in my calcuation on that heat loss program made by slant fin. I put the outside temp at 0 degrees. i am not even sure if that is proper.
My bigest concern is, i am on SS, have very little income, and I am afraid, that regular maintance from a proffestional will cost me extra money. i know that maintance is important, i was just wondering if I could maintain the unit from getting enough knowelge from the service manual. Or am i asking for trouble.
For the few days i have been on this site. i have learned alot. i am far from a professional, and there is alot more i need to learn
So, what do you think, am i being foolish, to think i could maintain this unit?

SWEI

You can certainly perform basic maintenance functions yourself, which we happily encourage and support whenever customers show an interest. The more aware you are of your system's design and operation, the less likely a problem is to go unnoticed. The boiler installation manual has a list of maintenance items with suggested schedules. How many of those items are you comfortable doing yourself?

maybemark

SWEI
I hope to be able to totally maintain it myself
Do you have the answer, am i putting in the proper number for outside temp of 0, living in Chicago?

Zman

@icesailor‌
Ice,
I see you you have reverted back to "you're smart, I'm not". I am a little disappointed we can't just have a conversation between intelligent people.
In my mind, the correct way to calc this would be to calc the main level as you normally would. For the area between the basement and the living space you would use the target temp for the basement as the outdoor air temp on that calc.
I would then calc the basement seperately using a lower indoor temp. The walls would have to be figured using gradient based on the depth below grade. Siggy's books have a good description of this. The reason basements tend to stay warm is a combination of waste energy from the house and it's heating system and the fact that the ground is usually around 50 degrees and provides thermal stability.
I agree that the foundation wall insulation is a challenge. Closed cell spray foam, sometimes inside, sometimes outside, can be a versital product for this.
Your smart, I'm smart. Let's proceed that way and gain even more knowledge.
How would you figure this out?
Carl

maybemark

carl
it seems both yu and ice are very smart when it comes to boilers, and maybe very smart on other things also. But, we are getting off track here. i am hoping to purchase a boiler to install in my house, and have unanswered questions.
So far i truely do appreciate all the feedback i have gotten, and i feel i even learned from many thoughts and suggestions given to me.
Is 0 the proper number for outside temp for chicago?
was i wrong not to include the basement in the heat loss calculator.
Am i foolish to consider to do the regular maintance on the boiler myself?
Do i replace the caleffi dirtmag for the y-stainer, or use both?

Any answers for me would be a huge help.
Any other suggestions would be a huge help.
I thank all of you
Mark

icesailor

@FranklinD:

"" During the winter, even at -20 ~ -30, it's 55* down there all the time.

Where are you located where you see -20 to -30 degree outside temperature? Are you confusing "Wind Chill Factor with the actual outside temperature? Wind Chill Factor is an arbitrary number that has little or nothing to do with heat loss from a structure. But how fast exposed human skin freezes at different colder temperatures.

If you use "Wind Chill Factors as a low temperature design factor, you will need the Mother of all boilers and radiation to overheat your house.

Someone here recently mentioned that Chicago, Il has temperatures of -24 degrees. WInd Chill. Not actual outside low temperatures.

SWEI

Can't speak to the Chicago weather as I've only been there a handful of times -- and only once in the dead of winter.

If the software allows it, we put a reasonable number (generally around 40˚F here for uninsulated crawl spaces and basements) as the outdoor temp. If the software isn't flexible enough, we just manipulate one of the other factors (floor area or R-value) to get what we need.

maybemark

ice
I put in 0 degrees for the calculations, not -20. i am asking, if 0 is a reasonable number to use.
Also, am i foolish to consider online supply compainies to purchase the boiler and other equiptment?
I notice this supplyhouse.com. Anyone know of this place? Is it good? Shouls i stay away from it?
another question, I have a large guessing about 30 maybe 40 gal overhead expantion tank, should I consider getting a new style tank, or would this work fine?

Zman

0 looks like a good number
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/bldrs_lenders_raters/downloads/Outdoor_Design_Conditions_508.pdf
Supplyhouse.com is quite good for many of the parts you need.
Many boiler manufactures including Triangle tube will not warranty online sales so be careful.
I would consider going with a bladder type expansion tank as long as you are repiping. Most manufactures have calculators to help you size them.
My experience is that fire tube heat exchangers require very little maintenance.
Use a dirtmag...

maybemark

ok, I got it out of my head not to get the gv90+, and very much considering the whn85. I still am not sure of the size, and, if I am thinking stupid to try and do routine mantainance on it myself.
Any input?
happy weekend to all
Mark

maybemark

what do people think about the htp elite ft?

maybemark

now i totally decided against the WM 90+ and am litening to many of you. I am mostly thinking the whn 85 or the solo 110.
+ Also want to go with an indirect domestic tank, but have not decided on what brand to go with.
Any thoughts?

icesailor

Zman said:

0 looks like a good number
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/bldrs_lenders_raters/downloads/Outdoor_Design_Conditions_508.pdf
Supplyhouse.com is quite good for many of the parts you need.
Many boiler manufactures including Triangle tube will not warranty online sales so be careful.
I would consider going with a bladder type expansion tank as long as you are repiping. Most manufactures have calculators to help you size them.
My experience is that fire tube heat exchangers require very little maintenance.
Use a dirtmag...

That PDF from Manual "J" is the reason that I have a problem with Manual J.

I don't have any of my old IBR H-22 Heat Loss Guides and the new one from GAMA and their new lettering (AHRI?), pretty much follow Manual J. But the old IBR one listed something extremely important to calculations that Manual J doesn't. Winter high wind factors.

Don't they call Chicago "The Windy City"? In Massachusetts, if you can find an old H-22 heat loss guide, the grey one, they list Boston at 5 above and Pittsfield at zero. They also listed Provincetown and Nantucket Island at zero because of the continuously high winds at both places. Both places have coastal Northeast Storms that blow well over 70 MPH regularly in the winter. Normal prevailing winter winds from the NW are consistently over 25 MPH and gusting higher. SLIGHTLY less at night, but high just the same.

Newer buildings and "energy saving" ventilation codes require serious attic venting. Where infiltration into a structure becomes a major issue for the unsuspecting. IBR's Infiltration factor used 15 MPH outside wind speed. When the outside wind speed is much more than double, they just corrected by lowering the outside temperature to correct it. Boston sees lower temperatures regularly and high winds. Also known as "The Montreal Express". In Illinois (Chicago) they might be getting what the weather folks in New England call an "Alberta Clipper". A front moving through from Western Canada, from West to East with the Canadian Artic High to give the cold air filling in behind the front to make it that cold that ice sailors love so much.

How many houses did I find that would cycle on and off at 70 degrees with a 12 degree OAT and no wind. But the same house a few days later with the OAT at 25 degrees and 30+ wind speed, and the house wouldn't go above 62? Far too many to remember. And these were all new houses with "modern" ventilation that allowed excessive infiltration.

I remember that Chicago was well below zero degrees. Those old dead guys corrected with lower OAT's for a reason. Just don't anyone forget why they did. If anyone has an old grey IBR H-22 heat loss guide, and could post the old city OAT numbers, it would be interesting to compare.

And most all IBR research was done at University of Illinois, Urbana in conjunction with IBR.

maybemark

icesailor
thank you for your input
let me metion what most people don't understand about the windy city (chicago). They call it the windy city because of politics, not actual wind. yes, at times we get strong winds, but this is not the normal. We too, last year had a very cold winter, they called it the polar vortex that came down from the artic.
I did see in a guide, that chicago was around 0, some place 1 or 2 degrees above, and other places around the city below, but average is 0.
Ice, are you thinking that 85 is not large enough for me with a heat loss of about 76000 witout counting the unheated basement?
I purchased many supplies from supplyhouse.com, but i am not purchasing the boiler or the tank from there
thank you for your interest, hoping to hear back from you soon, on what you think now.
Also, do you think a 40 gal indirect tank is enough for me. 2 showers, 2 kitchen sinks, 2 lavs, 1 basement sink.
right now i have a 50 gal ( on it's last legs) 60,000 btu gas, probably filled with crud on the bottom, but giving enough hot water

maybemark

Does anyone else have thoughts and comments on my questions?

Kirkhj

> @Zman said:
> If you were to purchase and install that thing, the GV90+4 would be the appropriate size.
> You do understand that unless you buy a separate outdoor reset controller, you will never exceed 84% efficiency.Given that it is a simple on off boiler and cannot modulate, that will reduce your net efficiency into the 70's%.
> You should also be aware the condensing technology and cast iron are inherently incomparable. The condensate wants to eat the boiler.
> The ratings on boilers in general are deeply flawed. The test is done in conditions that are no where near real world. Modulation is not factored in at all.
> I would either buy a nice firetube real condensing boiler like the triangle tube prestige or lochinvar WHN or just buy an appropriately sized standard cast iron boiler. Either one is a much better choice than the GV90+.
>
> Carl

Zman

I am not sure why @Kirkhj quoted this one but it was a nice walk down memory lane to a time when the forum was a bit more "edgy". I often wonder what @icesailor is up to these days....

Kirkhj

I too am considering the gv 90+ for many reasons. As well not written in stone but extremely likely at this point.

ZMAN please explain something to me.
How does a boiler that advertises an input of 105 and a net of 84 have efficiencies drop into the 70's? I calculate approx. 88 % using the 105 and 84 . I don't imagine it will draw more fuel or produce less IBR so where did the percentage of efficiency go?

Also nowhere could I find that outdoor reset was necessary to achieve the advertised 91%. That is an option.
This boiler uses a bypass circulator to heat the boiler water so temp comes up fast to avoid condensing on the cast sections. Im sure that weil would insist some other form of boiler protection That stainless HX simply draws more heat out of the exhaust after the cast sections and puts that heat I to the return water so how is it the two are not compatible?

Zman

You would have to ask the DOE about their IBR ratings. They don't make a whole lot of sense to me. You are correct, the energy needs to go somewhere. The same inconsistencies can be found across the board. That's the government for yah!

Check out this article on condensing technology. You need low return temps to get the efficiency.

I guess I will never understand the Gv's, but some folks like them. I just don't know why you would go with "Frankenstein" when you could have 10-1 turndown and higher efficiency.

Kirkhj

Gotta love the govt.eh?
Well to tell the truth and without going into the whole speil about why I might choose Frankie over Maserati let's just say I am very limited in choices as to contractors.
I would love to own the Maserati but there is no one here who could install, maintain or repair it.
My second choice as now would be the cgi5

Kirkhj

ZMAN. One of the reasons I'm considering the gv 90+4 over the Cgi 5 is that I see 15,000 less fuel input to achieve basically the same IBR. Yes it does cost more upfront but from what I need to do this job with a standard CI boiler the gv has built in at a savings of about $... I won't need a bypass or ESBE to protect, plus the taco 007's in the gv are variable speed controlled by the IBC etc etc...

I got a quote here on a TT solo by email after the contractor was in the basement maybe 20 minutes. Not one question asked. Over $ to do that...

When I asked if they have had many problems with them, I got no response. I emailed, called and they would not answer me. Assuming at that point they had installed none, but bottom line is they would not answer me. That leaves one more contractor closer than an hour and a half away.
20 years on the cast, 5 years on the ss and 2 years parts warranty. In my situation all considered this could well be a very good choice. I do know this other local contractor is not keen on mod cons, but has been around and doing boilers over 50 years.
They might not like the gv90+.
We shall see!

HVACNUT

@Kirkhj pricing is not allowed here so please edit your last post.
Is anyone in your area an Energy Kinetics dealer? The EK-1 Resolute Gas is a simple 90% efficient non condensing boiler.
If not, IMO if I were in your shoes in Anywhere USA, a cast iron atmospheric with an indirect and ODR would be my choice. Actually an oil fired EK would be my first choice but that's not on the table. But you have options in boilers. A triple pass cast iron boiler, indirect, ODR and a conversion gas burner like the Carlin EZ gas, Beckett, Riello. Excellent efficiencies, easy parts availability. All offer OEM specs for numerous boilers.
If my nearest contractor was an hour and a half away, I'd sacrifice a little efficiency for reliability any day.

Zman

@Kirkhj
Is you home infloor radiant or baseboard?

Kirkhj

HVAC nut. No energy kinetics dealers here. I really had that hope but no luck. Ng. Not oil. I also live in small town Canada. None of those options available to me. Nearest contractor is here in town but has simple stock. Weil is very common. Yes reliability and length of service over a few points efficiency for sure! Also thinking of yearly servicing and condensate removal. All can add up!

ZMAN 12 column type CI rads. It's 115 year old house.