New Steamer Install

NYplumber

Got a call from a home owner who has been on the wall and read some of Dans books. His steam boiler was leaking. Initially he assumed the sections were pulled apart due to the copper header. Further evaluation revealed that the block had a hole. After an EDR study we removed all the copper from the header and the returns and turned good old steel pipe the way it should have been done. Changed the water heater while there, and piped the water heater into the same chimney as the boiler so the home owner can use renewable resources (wood or pellets) to heat the home with the use of the other chimney.











Critic the install please. The pipe insulation is not like Gerry Gills, however we strive to be like him one day.

I can be found in the find a contractor part of this site under Moes P and H Inc.

Thanks for reading.

vaporvac

I'm just a homeowner, but it looks great from where I'm standing. I would have really appreciated an install like that. I didn't know I could use the same chimney for both appliances; i guess the caveat just applies to solid fuels?

BobC

That is a great looking install, I'm sure the owner will be nice and warm (beautiful drop header) and using less fuel.

Bob

KC_Jones

Very nice! Was the homeowner actually able to pay for the whole job with copper recycling money? That was a lot of copper!

Abracadabra

Very nice clean install... except.. shouldn't the header be full size all the way across and reduce only once it's turned down into the equalizer? The way it is now, you'll have condensate sitting in the bottom of the header all the time. Need a drip leg on the gas line too.

NYplumber

The header has enough pitch that nothing is sitting in there. We checked that. Good eyes.

As for the gas, this is in NY and as the latest we are aware of, drip legs are not to be installed.

Dave0176

Very nice install. Might be just me but on that size boiler I'd've used a 4" header. Also I install mostly Williamson too, eventually Weil McLain is gonna catch up on this lol.

Steamhead

Looks good overall. But I'd still change that last tee. The reason is that if any water gets up that high from the boiler, that tee will slow it down on its way to drain into the equalizer. And because the steam's velocity increases as the pipe diameter decreases, it might redirect some water up into that last main connection.

The reason for using such a large header is to keep the velocity down so water can drain back to the boiler. That's why the run of the tee needs to be full-size.

NYplumber

@Dave0176 thanks for the complement. We did consider 3in takeoffs and a 4in header however felt it was overkill on this job. Three inch and under we turn, four inch and above we weld.

Fred

Beautiful job! But do, do change out that last Tee. Don't let that become an issue for the Home owner down the line, especially when the weather really turns cold and the boiler runs for extended periods and ruin his/her opinion of the wonderful job you actually did.

NYplumber

Steamhead, fully agree with you. If there are any issues we will make adjustments as necessary. The "t" was an oversight, however the drastic pitch compensates for it.

Abracadabra

@NYplumber‌ I work in and around Chicago so I have to admit I'm not familiar with NY code, but doesn't IFGC and NFPA 54 require sediment traps on all gas utilization equipment? Sorry, originally I said "drip leg" when I meant sediment trap.

Dave0176

I always run drip traps on gas lines, it's just habit .

j a_2

I believe that most manufactures require them…I don’t know of any jurisdiction that overrides manf. install instructions…That said I am not a NYC plumber…so I can’t say for sure….The gas is much cleaner these days, but over the years I have seen them quite full….so they are still a good idea..Y

j a_2

Your install looks nice and neat, I feel it will work just fine….But I agree with Steamhead ,in theory…..

Dave0176

Maybe NY don't require a trap by code, but Weil McLain recommends it in their manual.

hatchet

Nice install. You sure did spend some extra time (&material) on that. Where does the Bx go to thats on the right side?
I prefer to use full port ball valve for boiler drain.

NYplumber

Dave0176 said:

Maybe NY don't require a trap by code, but Weil McLain recommends it in their manual.

So when the manufacture of a mod con states PVC as an allowable venting, one should use that? Sometimes codes are written to protect. Watch a video I made a long while back. That is why NYC doesnt use drip legs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E47Wg0uw64&list=UUzGGrflSBVqRSXb-nl6xAaA&index=5

Again, I may be wrong.

NYplumber

hatchet said:

Nice install. You sure did spend some extra time (&material) on that. Where does the Bx go to thats on the right side?
I prefer to use full port ball valve for boiler drain.

Water feeder.

Ball valves are full port.

Abracadabra

I found it interesting that New York city code would prohibit the use of sediment traps, so I decided to do some reading since it's a bit too cold to go outside and do anything on a Saturday.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/fuel_code.pdf

THE NEW YORK CITY FUEL GAS CODE
SECTION FGC 408
DRIPS AND SLOPED PIPING

408.4 Sediment trap. Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shutoff valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical. The sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.

NYplumber

Abracadabra said:

I found it interesting that New York city code would prohibit the use of sediment traps, so I decided to do some reading since it's a bit too cold to go outside and do anything on a Saturday.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/fuel_code.pdf

THE NEW YORK CITY FUEL GAS CODE
SECTION FGC 408
DRIPS AND SLOPED PIPING

408.4 Sediment trap. Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shutoff valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical. The sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.

I will be looking into the subject come Monday.

SWEI

NYplumber said:

That is why NYC doesn't use drip legs.

Not quite clear -- is "that" the possibility of someone hackifying a CSST connection to the capped nipple at the bottom of the sediment trap?

hatchet

The drain I refered to was the main boiler drain. That would be tapping D in the installation instructions. If it were a slightly larger boiler, it would be a requirement to change to full port valve.

NYplumber

Update on the drip leg discussion. Code dictates a dirt leg installed however local inspectors will fail the inspection due to their own rules.

ChrisJ

Decent looking installation other than the missing drip leg and that last tee on the header has to be changed to full size as it will trap water.

SWEI

I know NYC is kind of a world unto itself, but most places have some kind of policies and procedures to prevent inspectors from making stuff up out of whole cloth. I'd be looking at pushing back, but in just the right place (implied liability assignment by letter comes to mind...)

RobG

Where I'm at you pick and choose your battles carefully. It's usually easier to just do what the inspector wants (as long as it's safe and within reason). Every county in Virginia has different inspectors and different wants. I have never failed an inspection for installing a drip leg though.

SWEI

We regularly deal with with irrational inspector requests, and for most of them it's unfortunately easier to comply than to argue.

A mechanical inspector here required of one client that all the boiler PRV's be piped to a floor drain on the other side of a basement. When I pointed out the risk of not seeing problems when they shared a common drain, he wanted them piped individually. We expressed our concern that this would put problems out of sight and therefore out of mind. The compromise was to install expanded metal guards around the pipes exits in order to prevent potential scald issues (which turned out to underlie their rationale.)

Robert O'Connor_12

When dealing with inspectors, I find its best to be "armed" (with current code books & administrative changes) and when an issue arises, instead of him/her being "thee" final word, I'll ask, "would you mine finding that section, here, the books right here".
Typically after that, I've either completely cheese him off OR he/she knows I'm not taking it lying down. If the result requires inspector to cite code section then and if it could be found I'll change it (never yet).
Keeps em on their collective toes but they will respect me (probably won't like me) but I'll either educate them or me when it's all said an done.
If installers last tee on header isn't causing a problem, I'd leave it. I would not make that a habit though. I would however install drip/dirt leg on gas & get rid of factory boiler drain & replace with full port valve that you could clean out just by using boiler gauge glass guard.
Nice install!

RobG

SWEI said:

We regularly deal with with irrational inspector requests, and for most of them it's unfortunately easier to comply than to argue.

A mechanical inspector here required of one client that all the boiler PRV's be piped to a floor drain on the other side of a basement. When I pointed out the risk of not seeing problems when they shared a common drain, he wanted them piped individually. We expressed our concern that this would put problems out of sight and therefore out of mind. The compromise was to install expanded metal guards around the pipes exits in order to prevent potential scald issues (which turned out to underlie their rationale.)

In defense of the inspector, If a person was a barefoot quadriplegic and put their foot right under the relief valve just as it blew they could possibly get a nasty burn.

KC_Jones

RobG said:

In defense of the inspector, If a person was a barefoot quadriplegic and put their foot right under the relief valve just as it blew they could possibly get a nasty burn.

Of course they wouldn't feel anything so how would they know their foot got burned? Maybe the code should include an audio and visual alarm for that situation...that way there is no doubt what is going on. Sometimes things can go a bit far. I once saw a toner cartridge for a laser printer with the warning "Caution! don't eat toner". I can't make this stuff up.

Fred

LOL, I'd be wondering how a bare foot quadriplegic got down to the basement in the first place But I digress

KC_Jones

Fred said:

LOL, I'd be wondering how a bare foot quadriplegic got down to the basement in the first place But I digress

I won't comment this will head sideways fast...my sense of humor is warped.

Stet

Who makes the Williamson Boiler?? Looks like the burnham steam boilers have problems too. How to Peerless steam boilers rate with the others. Trying to reccomend

KC_Jones

Williamson is a re-badged Weil Mclain.

ChrisJ

Stet said:

Who makes the Williamson Boiler?? Looks like the burnham steam boilers have problems too. How to Peerless steam boilers rate with the others. Trying to reccomend

As was said Williamson is the same as Weil-McLain.

All brands of boilers equally have problems if abused or neglected. In my opinion it doesn't matter whose name is on the boiler, it's what happens after it leaves the factory that is important.

If you have a leaky system that uses a lot of water or have water with a low PH it doesn't matter what brand of boiler you install it will fail.

Steve_210

On the drip leg issue, This has been going back and forth between the local utility company and building department for the last number of years
The last I heard gas company Allow, but tapping can be no bigger than half-inch.
It is an attempt to stop people from hooking another appliance that has been shut off at the meter up to the drip leg.
In multi family dwelling's

ChrisJ

Steve said:

On the drip leg issue, This has been going back and forth between the local utility company and building department for the last number of years
The last I heard gas company Allow, but tapping can be no bigger than half-inch.
It is an attempt to stop people from hooking another appliance that has been shut off at the meter up to the drip leg.
In multi family dwelling's

I've heard this before and in my opinion, it's the one of the most stupid rules I've ever heard.

People are going to do what they're going to do and you're not going to stop them. If you can remove a cap from a drip leg you can disconnect a union and remove half and connect the pipe that way. It even takes the same exact tools.

KC_Jones

When I worked for the utility we had customers climb a pole with jumper cables to reconnect their service. Keep in mind these are live lines when they clamp on. We ended up having to remove the loop to the house entirely and take it away to prevent this. If people will do that I wouldn't put anything past them. I agree with Chris making a rule in the hopes of stopping something isn't going to work....they always find a way. The things I saw when I worked for the utility are forever burned in my brain....scary scary stuff.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

When I worked for the utility we had customers climb a pole with jumper cables to reconnect their service. Keep in mind these are live lines when they clamp on. We ended up having to remove the loop to the house entirely and take it away to prevent this. If people will do that I wouldn't put anything past them. I agree with Chris making a rule in the hopes of stopping something isn't going to work....they always find a way. The things I saw when I worked for the utility are forever burned in my brain....scary scary stuff.

If I was into theft I'd have no problem climbing a pole and connecting up to the power lines live. But, I'm not so I don't. Besides you'd have to be pretty dumb to think you could get away with that.

Ok..... that, and if I wasn't fat and out of shape. The mind is willing but the body is just too much.

Steve_210

I am not disagreeing. I am just explaining the thinking behind it
And we have to follow Codes whatever they maybe