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recommendation for new boiler / burner a quiet one

jyoung7777
jyoung7777 Member Posts: 2
I live in CT in the suburbs no gas in the street in a 2,400 sq ft colonial built in 1986 w hot water baseboard and 4 zones. Oil fired furnace is very noisy and been getting noisier and I suspect not very efficient w increased service calls. the boiler is a National Standard CR 124 w Becket RWB by Rotomatika model 707 502. about 7 years ago we had our heating company add a hot water storage system a Crown Mega Stor 51 gallon ms 53 w a flexcon potable water expansion tank since before that we had inadequate hot water for showers. Our house has 3.5 bathrooms. Boiler is in basement and directly under our family room where we spend all our time and the noise the furnace makes is very noticeable in the family room. Finally, after we had the mega stor put in, when the hot water is running anywhere in the house there is a loud rushing noise you can hear throughout the house which I want to get fixed. No similar noise when the cold water is running. Over the years we have worked w a local small business plumbing company, and I like the fellow and his crew. He has offered two options: a Buderus 215-4 w Beckett burner and controls, or a Peerless Beckett Wbv04 Water Boiler w Beckett burner. quoted peerless for a couple hundred bucks less than the Buderus. I've asked him to talk to me about which would be better, and importantly to me which would be quieter, and we haven't had that conversation yet. I'm surprised that I'm not finding any helpful info about how much noise these systems make and was very unhappy a few years ago when we had A/c put in (with another company) and the outdoor units are really noisy and my neighbor has been unhappy w me ever since and I think w some justification. Any recommendations for me? Also, he hasn't talked to me about heat loss calculation, but my house configuration is very common and I'm sure he has installed lots of systems in houses like mine, but should I care about this?

Comments

  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,425
    " Also, he hasn't talked to me about heat loss calculation, but my house configuration is very common and I'm sure he has installed lots of systems in houses like mine, but should I care about this? '
    2400 sq/ft in CT,built in 1986? Heat loss is no more than 60,000, a 215/4 or a WBV4 can heat 3 of those!
    EK System 2000,Firebird and Pinnacle Oil are by far the quietest oil boilers available. Don't know they are on unless you are standing next to them and even then!
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    Bob Bona_4billtwocaseZman
  • Kakashi
    Kakashi Member Posts: 88
    EK 90+ Resolute or EK frontier boiler. If/when you get gas, they convert over very easy.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    For what he is offering, your old boiler is 1950's or earlier technology. The two choices are #1, the Buderus, for more money but a modern "state of the art" boiler. The Peerless WBV-4 is a multi-fired unit so one size fits three applications. Which one is the best? None IMO. And your burner choices. 1960's technology at its best. For a burner, you need a Riello or Carlin EZ-1. Riello's work extremely well in a Buderus. Riello's and Carlins are "adjustable head" burners. The other is a "Fixed Head" burner.

    Your "small local" company needs to get on with the current trending in heating equipment and design.

    Without looking it up, the Peerless, because it is such a universal "do-all" (poorly) boiler, may have the ability to exhaust vent out of the top or the back. Your old boiler may vent out of the top. If either does, it often leads to terrible noise complaints because the sounds of combustion has a direct track into the venting.

    But more than anything else, you need a complete and comprehensive heat loss done on the structure, regardless of how much radiation is already installed. The more the better. It just means that you can run the water temperature lower and save money. Size the boiler to the building heat loss, not the amount of radiation installed. It was over radiated when it was built. It is worse now. The only boilers I know of (and I've been at this since the 1960's, that had "American" or "National" in their name made excellent boat moorings in mud. And designed around 1940/50's burner and heating technology.

    The Peerless WBV-4 is probably way oversized, even when fired at its lowest.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    Agree with Mr. OBrien. Though I like the Boods, it does come up on occasion exhaust roar/rumble. That must be a misprint "215/4". A 115/4 sounds more in line. The 215s are monsters.

    Perhaps Buderus blue flame? Very quiet. Bob O'Brien does a lot of NX Becketts that reportedly are quiet on the Buderus.
  • Jack
    Jack Member Posts: 1,045
    I would suggest that the boilers (whichever one you choose) vent connector be replaced with either the Selkirk DS or Dura vent DVL double wall pipe. That will not only quiet the system down, but also improve draft performance.
  • raheeres
    raheeres Member Posts: 1
    Is this the EK heating system that shows up in the ad on the side?
    Kakashi said:

    EK 90+ Resolute or EK frontier boiler. If/when you get gas, they convert over very easy.

  • Kakashi
    Kakashi Member Posts: 88
    Yes, some of the best tech support staff. I don't need them anymore but, it's nice to know they are there. I've only worked on 2 Resolute systems and I work on Frontiers and Classics on pretty much a daily basis.

    If only the plate heat exchangers were made in in the same factory.
  • RJMCTAFO
    RJMCTAFO Member Posts: 113
    edited October 2014
    Worked on my first Slantfin Euctetic the other day. Quietest boiler I have seen in person. Also can not go wrong with an EK. Great units. Where in CT are you located ?
  • jyoung7777
    jyoung7777 Member Posts: 2
    Thanks to you all for your thoughts. I live in Southeast CT close to the Sound (but alas not within seeing distance of the mud anchors IceSailor refers to). I've just called my oil company which does annual maintenance for me and installs furnaces, and has been around a long time. Yellow pages say they sell the EK system not sure what else. I understand I should be expecting a heat loss calculation. Anything else I should be expecting a good company to do in evaluating my needs? ....my thanks in advance........
  • HydronicComfort
    HydronicComfort Member Posts: 12
    This was also posted for another person with a similar question.

    Peerless Pinnacle PO-70 Oil-Fired Condensing Boiler. No need for a chimney, it can be utilized with a concentric direct vent; one wall penetration only. .50 GPH nozzle, fantastically quiet and can be ordered with an outdoor reset sensor.

    The #2 controller allows different set-points for heat and DHW production with DHW priority.

    It's a condensing boiler, too--but unless you have 105-degree return water temperatures you will not benefit from this feature. It's 91.7 AFUE in condensing mode. It's exhaust temperature is very low, approximately in the 130-degrees range.

    You can add a buffer-tank and additional fin-tube convectors sized for the correct water temperature to allow condensing. The buffer tank will allow longer, more-efficient burns and less cycling.

    It's an unheralded boiler; not many people know of them or have had them installed. It's reliable and durable. Have it double-filtered (canister and cartridge) and a tiger-loop installed. The tiger-loop de-aerates the oil and if you ever run out of oil, two reset attempts and you'll be up and running with no system bleeding required.

    This is a pricey boiler; worth every penny. Arguably the best oil-fired boiler on the market.

    Here is a link to the boiler: http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Products/ResidentialBoilers/PeerlessPinnacleOil/tabid/115/Default.aspx#dnn_productratings

    and the buffer tank: www.boilerbuddy.com
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Old boilers make good mooring blocks anywhere.

    Old Yankee thrift and ingenuity.
  • Jack
    Jack Member Posts: 1,045
    HC, I question if paying a substantial up charge for a 91.7% ( when condensing?) unit and having to add additional equipment at an even higher cost is better than going with the straight 84% Buderus that everyone knows how to work on. As you say, the Peerless is the best kept secret. What is its efficiency when not in the condensing mode? How many techs are going to know how to clean, service and repair this unit?

    If it was up in the 95-96% range there may be something there, but for 4-6%, I just don't get it.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,703
    edited October 2014
    Jack,
    The Peerless, like the Buderus, allows return temps as low as 105* which allows the ODR to be set to a much wider range. This results in much more savings than the AFUE rating reflects. Of course, the type of emitters also factor in to the top and bottom numbers of the ODR curve.

    The Buderus GB125 also has a special burner that literally burners with a blue flame which means much more complete combustion and virtually no sooting. That can mean a large savings in fuel and maintenance because a 1/16th of and inch of soot can reduce heat transfer up to 18%. That doesn't show up in the AFUE number either.

    The down side is the installer MUST be certified on the burner. The average oil tech will do the wrong thing to the burner if he follows his instincts.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    Bob Bona_4
  • Jack
    Jack Member Posts: 1,045
    Thanks Ironman. I understand what you are saying. I'd like to play with that burner some. I remember the first Blue Flame. If you wanted to start a fight all you had to do was stick your head in the Service Managers office, say BF, and he'd start throwing things at you.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,703
    Buderus offers regular training and certification on it. They move the classes around the mid Atlantic and N.E. with a trailer that has the boiler and other apparatus in it. Everyone in the class does hands-on live fire training. It's a one day event.

    I'm sure the factory or a local rep can schedule it for you.

    By the way, I'm with you on the old Blue flame. This one is totally different and better designed.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    @Ironman:

    Did you ever see the Blue Flame or Blue Ray that Carlin made for someone (Blue Ray or Blue Flame) that was a Carlin 100 CRD with a big ring welded on to the end of the tube? The end was supposed to get hot and glow. Then, they fell off, causing all kinds of problems. Every time I hear about a "Blue Flame" burner, I think about that.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,703
    edited October 2014
    Oh yeah. And I don't care to see that scenario any more.

    Buderus seems to have conquered that problem. They use a blast tube made of a special ceramic that becomes red hot after about two minutes of firing. It's about 1/2" thick, so it should be very durable. They've had this burner in use in Europe for years before bringing it here. It's field-proven.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    Yup the old blue ray with Carlin. Took a special nozzle. Things went bad with that one. I made the trip to Londonderry to get certified about 5 years ago. Good stuff. If not complete combustion, pretty damn near it. Whisper quiet.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    I don't think that is the same one. This one is 1975 vintage.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    I agree Ice. I am glad those Bluerays are all gone, I hope. They only ran with a 70 CC Monarch nozzle. No cad cell eye, had a pyrostat. They had to be 100% sealed tight, or they would pulsate and smell. Converted many with a standard Carlin tube assembly. The units were scotch marine style boilers made by Thermodynamics. The warm air units were the pits. As far as quietest boiler, I started using EK 2000 back in the early 80's to replace the rotary units that were one, getting hard to find parts for, and two, Kero was starting to climb in price in leaps and bounds. Like the rotary, EK is very quiet and efficient. The first one was installed with the Marrens by our side. Great support then and now.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    Was that the minivan Marren, Bill? Guy showed up with the EK in the back of it on job site. oh...about 92 ish..myfirst EK. Can't remember his name.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    edited November 2014
    Been so long Bob, I think Roger and John? This was in an old house circa 1700's with just a Cape Cod potato basement. Outside tank, Timken rotary. Radiators the size of cars. They just kept getting warmer and warmer. We were sold on it. I still have one of their first units that was installed 1979 in operation. Not too shabby
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    edited November 2014
    Rep here 1992, Bruce Marshall? He was at least mid-late 90's, then big Dave Lorensten after Bruce. Jim Reardon (spelling?) now.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    It has been so long, so many jobs ago. I do remember being impressed by the pre fab near boiler fittings...like a kit. No one else had that!
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    I was a happy camper when they came out with a boiler stand. Building the platform out of 3 different cement blocks staggered was a chore, and when you would set the boiler up there, they would always shift. The "knock down" was a welcome kit for sure
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    Ha ha..that's right...looked at an hvac job this am, guess what was purring away in the basement :)
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    purring quietly no doubt
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    Yes it was!
  • Jack
    Jack Member Posts: 1,045
    Ironman, I don't think they are running that van out to California, which is where I live now. I may have missed the chance. i'll be in Anchorage the week of 11/7. Maybe it will be up there.
    Ironman