Heat day/night setup – pls chime in

docancho

I have a hot water heating – McNeil boiler with 3 zones, separate thermostat for each zone/apt (Honeywell Round Mechanical Thermostat).

Rather than having it run 24 hrs at full force, I’d like to lower temperature at night and higher at daytime. Since these are 3 rental units and thermostats manual, that’s not possible -- if any of 3 thermostats is left at for example 70 degrees, boiler will be working full force entire night, which jacks up the gas bill.

I am looking for simple, automated solution that will set heat at 68 degrees daytime, and 55 nighttime.

I looked into replacing manual with programmable thermostat for each apt but that’s a bit complicated as tenants can easily overwrite the settings w/o me knowing.

Any way this can be done or controlled on boiler level?

I would really appreciate any suggestion from professionals and/or people that have experienced the same challenge.

KC_Jones

Just a homeowner here. My grandfather has a vacation condo that has a programmable thermostat on wifi that can be monitored AND it has a passcode option that enables local control to be locked out unless the passcode is entered. This solution could work for you if I am understanding you correctly. Also (and I am sure a pro will chime in on this) that much setback 68-55 might not save you anything. If you do some searches on setback you will find that the system will burn so much fuel to bring the temperature back up it's better to either leave it at a steady temperature or not setback quite so much. The pros know better and may have other options for you, but that my 2 cents worth.

docancho

Thermostat with WiFi control/password might not be a good option in this case as there are 3 apts/zones.

I would need to install internet service (monthly fee of $50 minimum year round), buy router, replace all thermostats w/ wifi ones (these are very pricey), get electrician to rewire all thermostats, and worst of all if internet connection goes does or any issues, I need to go back each time to each apt to re-connect thermostats w/ my router so I can control it.

based on my research, people do not recommend wifi ones for mutli zones or complex setup.

thanks.

KC_Jones

He has his because of the rental situation. He has no internet or wifi the thermostat was obtained through the power company as part of an energy savings program. It works on their system and was installed for free by them. My father is in charge of it and so far has had zero issues of any kind. It might be worth investigating your local utility to see if they offer such a program.

SWEI

You can do this with outdoor reset and a shift setting, which will also save on fuel overall. Details on the boiler, pumps, and related piping (photos will help a lot)?

docancho

SWEI, I appreciate your input. I have an idea how outdoor reset work, but what about overnight?

Outdoor reset adjusts hot water temp based on outside temp, however during the night I need to be on minimum (probably 120 F). is this possibility to have Outdoor Reset with different day/night settings?

I am not sure of the specs on boiler but I found only one pic I took long ago. apologies for not being as clear.

RobG

The simple solution would be to install programmable thermostats and install lock boxes over them. The lock boxes won't deter a truly determined tenant, but if you have good people it may work.

I agree with KC, don't do such a deep setback as it will cost you more money to bring back up to temp.

KC_Jones

RobG said:

The simple solution would be to install programmable thermostats and install lock boxes over them. The lock boxes won't deter a truly determined tenant, but if you have good people it may work.

I agree with KC, don't do such a deep setback as it will cost you more money to bring back up to temp.

Aren't those the things I remember being in school classrooms as a kid?

RobG

Yup, just a clear plastic box with a key lock. You also see them in offices where the boss or landlord gets sick of employees constantly raising and lowering the thermostat.

Rob

Abracadabra

Heh.. I've had tenants use a knife thru the cutouts on the lock box to make changes to the thermostat. I've had good luck installing products from this place for multi-unit buildings.

http://www.rdcontrolsystems.com/hotwater-1430-series.php

docancho

Abracadabra, this looks like a good solution as it's outdoor reset + has a night setback technique to lower water temp.

can you point me in right direction where I can purchase these and how can I have this installed?

is this something that needs to be installed/configured professionally?

FYI - I currently have standard Honeywell Aquastat Relay in place.

SWEI

RD makes a great box, though you might want to check pricing before you get too excited.

You have several ODR options. Boiler reset adjusts the boiler setpoint by putting a relay in series with the aquastat and can be done quite inexpensively using something like an SR-501. The limitation here is the boiler's returning water temp, which will effectively limit you to a minimum supply temperature of about 140˚F on that boiler.

The next step is an ODR-controlled mixing valve or injection pump. This will allow the system water temps to run as low as you want, but will cost roughly 4-6 times what the SR-501 will.

Either of these options can be "tricked" into shifting their reset curve downward using a resistor or two and a timer (a programmable thermostat makes a pretty good timer.)

docancho

SWEI, these sound like all good solutions.

what I am looking for is simplest one -- ODR w/ night mode.

All I want to do is set daytime/nightime temp at beginning of heat season, put heat on and not worrying about temp.

which would you recommend with McNeil boiler and 3 separate zones?

also, will ODR work on top of aquastat relay or will it replace it?

thx

Jamie Hall

Two cents worth... first, that deep a setback will probably not save you money, although a shallower one may. Second, check your local ordinances. That deep a setback may be flat out illegal (there are ordinances about minimum temperatures for landlord controlled rental spaces in many communities).

nicholas bonham-carter

The honeywell visionpro can run off a remote sensor, which would be in the apt where the old thermostat was, with the control locked up in the boiler room-one for each unit.
If you have no setback, you can set a lower constant temperature (65 or 66 degrees, instead of switching from 70 down to 65).
If you have high fuel bills, maybe it some sort of system problem, and not tampering tenants.
I think the ODR option would have the most savings.--NBC

docancho

temperature is regulated by city 68 daytime / 55 nighttime. I cannot change this.

Last winter I had system run 24 hrs and bills were high. I want to make it more efficient this winter and not sure which way to go -- ODR with night mode or replacing Honeywell VisionPro.

it's investment/rental house hence I am not looking to spend more funds than I really need to.

Honeywell VisionPro might be a better solution however installing it will cost much as all 3 thermostats will need to be re-wired + entire system purchased.

I think ODR might be cheaper and good solution (not ideal) - it will give some control to tenants in case they get too hot/cold and won't run full force 24hrs.

Question: does ODR replace aquastat relay or works on top of it?

thanks.

Gordy

My suggestion do btu monitoring let the tenant pay the bill.

Abracadabra

docancho said:

Abracadabra, this looks like a good solution as it's outdoor reset + has a night setback technique to lower water temp.

can you point me in right direction where I can purchase these and how can I have this installed?

I buy them direct from the manufacturer after my supplier stopped carrying them and switched to HeatTimer.

docancho said:

is this something that needs to be installed/configured professionally?

A professional installation would be preferable if you don't have much experience, but you basically run some thermostat wire from each unit room sensor to the control. Wire control to your burner relay. Wire an outdoor sensor. Wire water temp sensor. With the hot water system I think there's a couple extra wires to run to a pump. I think there's a manual online with a wiring diagram.

docancho said:

FYI - I currently have standard Honeywell Aquastat Relay in place.

An Aquastat is not a relay. It's simply a thermostat for measuring water temp.

Abracadabra

wow... 55 at nite.. heh.. that would get you locked up around here.

Don_197

I may be mistaken but that control only accepts TWO remote indoor sensors, and he has THREE indoor zones. Were it me......I'd leave the apartment thermostats alone (all they are doing is opening and closing their individual zone valves and the endwsitches on the zone valves are sending a boiler on call) and I'd just take control of the water temperature...........and use the OA reset function as well. If you made sure the loop water temp didn't set back below 100 when in setback, you could feel safe that the zones wouldn't fall lower than 55 at night BUT MAKE SURE YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF MIXING SCHEME AS THAT IS A CAST IRON BOILER!!!! You can't allow colder than 135-140 degree water back to the return into that boiler. Just my $0.02

docancho

I think I will proceed with installing ODR as it looks like once installed properly, I will have all I needed - it will regulate water temp based on outside temp daytime, and nighttime it will be set to minimum. this way I can have boiler running all the time and ODR regulate everything efficiently.

I will appreciate if you can recommend any specialist in heating in Queens, NY area.

this forum is very valuable with very knowledgeable professionals. it would be perfect if it can be a heat specialist from this forum that I can get in touch regarding it.

thanks.

Zman

nicholas bonham-carter said:

The honeywell visionpro can run off a remote sensor, which would be in the apt where the old thermostat was, with the control locked up in the boiler room-one for each unit.
If you have no setback, you can set a lower constant temperature (65 or 66 degrees, instead of switching from 70 down to 65).
If you have high fuel bills, maybe it some sort of system problem, and not tampering tenants.
I think the ODR option would have the most savings.--NBC

This is the perfect solution except....
Install a cheap programmable battery operated t-stat over the sensor as a fake.People love feel they have control.

nicholas bonham-carter

You can always adjust the aquastat higher, and lower depending on the weather, if you are on site frequently.--NBC

SWEI

docancho said:

Question: does ODR replace aquastat relay or works on top of it?

As I hinted at above, on/off boiler reset control puts a relay in series with the boiler aquastat. The aquastat then becomes a high limit controller which should not operate other than during very cold weather.

There are a number of talented NY contractors posting regularly here -- hopefully one of them will jump in here.

nicholas bonham-carter

The visionpro can have 4 remote sensors which will average the temperature amongst them, so only on control would be neede.
They must be connected in a certain way for it to work properly.--NBC