Adjusting TT Prestige Solo 110 CH Operation
Comments
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Sorry Justin,
It wasn't meant to offend you. It's just my way. If we were standing face to face, I would have said the same thing, only with a few more expletives. I will occasionally laugh at others, in a given situation , having "been there, done that". More often, I laugh at myself for having "been there, done that", and, once again, did "er" wrong.0 -
Fair enough :-) It's hard to read tone in emails and message boards...Paul48 said:Sorry Justin,
It wasn't meant to offend you. It's just my way. If we were standing face to face, I would have said the same thing, only with a few more expletives. I will occasionally laugh at others, in a given situation , having "been there, done that". More often, I laugh at myself for having "been there, done that", and, once again, did "er" wrong.
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Unfortunately, while my numbers will probably be more accurate than yours, I can't really get an exact count on piping, elbows and such since much of it is contained within the floors (particularly, the 2nd floor where I can only guess really)..Zman said:I am not really familiar with the Darcy formula. I am sure some of it applies to your system, it looks like it over complicates things a bit. The formula in the Taco manual should work just fine.
I think you are using the formula you just posted correctly. In my calculation I was making an estimation on the "L" number. Since you can get an exact count on the components and piping in your system, your numbers will be more accurate.
If you apply the formula for several different flow rates, 2gpm, 4 gpm and 6 gpm, then plot (and draw a line between) the correlating flow rates and head losses, you will have your system head loss curve. If you then over lay that curve on the performance curve of the circulators you are considering, the point that the 2 curves intersect will be your flow rate.
The 4 ft/sec shown in the taco manual should be your absolute max. With hot water baseboard any thing over 4 gpm is a waste of circulator energy (unless you have a ridiculous number of heaters on a loop)
Carl
Which Taco manual are you referring to? I did a search for 0015 on their site and found an instruction sheet (http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-433.pdf)? Having trouble finding the 4ft/sec you're referring to?
I think I *finally* get this - I plotted out a few curves and that helped... I went back and was kind of shocked that I thought I could just go to the right between LO and MEDIUM along the 6-ft of head... *embarrassed* ;-)
My zones (1st floor, Master BD, 2nd Floor) have ~38.5', ~25', ~25' of radiation... so probably not "ridiculous", right?
BTW, when the heat is on in the Master BD, I can hear the water flowing (or at least, something anyway) whereas I can't in the other zones... any thoughts on what that might be?
I also noticed that my estimate of 150 ft above was not correct - that's just the length of pipe (I forgot to multiply by 150%)... also, I start counting in the loop right? From the circulator until it rejoins the return header?0 -
The 4ft/sec can be found in the Distribution Piping section of Hydronics Step by Step. It is a rule for velocity.0
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You don't have a ridiculous amount of base board. I would consider 4 gpm plenty of flow. You could run them at 2 or 3 if they were sized correctly for the temp drop (another discussion).
I think 150% is probably a bit much. You could take a guess at the the number of 90's, tees and other restriction and compare that to the 150% number and see how it looks. If you figure (4) 90's for each baseboard and another 10-15 you can't see, you should be pretty close. Yes you want to figure the entire loop.
The noise you hear is probably air. It could be high velocity.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
Has the piping at the boiler been corrected?0
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No, unfortunately, I am still working on that... I have been trying to get the TT guy and the supply house guy to come out and look at it... have to call the supply house again tomorrow0
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OK, while I'm trying to get another contractor to come by, I started tallying up the piping and here's what I've come up with so far...
1st Floor - In Progress
2nd Floor - 246 ft equivalent => ~4.4 gpm @ ~9.75 ft of head loss on LO => ~2.9 ft/sec (0.785" ID)
Master - 213 ft equivalent => ~4.8 gpm @ ~9.8 ft of head loss on LO => ~3.15 ft/sec (0.785" ID)
Flow rates are above the 4 gpm but flow velocities seem OK?
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Something else I am wondering - when I first learned of Mod/Con boilers, I thought I remembered hearing that the flue gas temperature was rather low (~100F or so)... am I not remembering correctly?
Asking because mine is usually quite a bit higher - usually around the boiler setpoint temperature... could this be a symptom of my low-delta across the HX? If there's no heat transfer to the water, the heat has nowhere else to go but out the flue?0 -
Question - how much effort do you all think it would take to re-pipe the boiler? How many hours? So far, one guy has set aside 4 hrs to do it... thoughts?0
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Question....Did he know what was wrong with it, by just looking? If not, he probably shouldn't be doing the job.0
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He hasn't been by yet, just looked at some pictures I sent him...
When I spoke to his assistant, it didn't seem like he was 100% set on re-piping - he wanted to see it in person before knowing for certain that it was necessary to do so... he commented the other day (as TT did as well) that P/S is not required for this boiler so perhaps there is another remedy...0 -
My dad and I did it in about 4 hrs but all we did was connect the supply and return manifolds together and added a set of closely space t's and piped it back to the boiler. This created a boiler loop with the supply and return tappings on the boiler and the closely spaced t's. My pump setting inside the boiler is set on speed 2.0
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Yeah, I think that's what I'd want to do here - get rid of my loopback between DHW and CH supply, add a closely-spaced T between CH supply and return, and put the loop at the end of supply and return...wrxz24 said:My dad and I did it in about 4 hrs but all we did was connect the supply and return manifolds together and added a set of closely space t's and piped it back to the boiler. This created a boiler loop with the supply and return tappings on the boiler and the closely spaced t's. My pump setting inside the boiler is set on speed 2.
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What was told to me is that you can but not the way you have it, remember you have pumps inseries. I assume you could remove the pump inside the boiler but must be careful with the minimum amount of flow needed for the heat exchanger. That was my worry anyway so I just but the bullet and piped it p/sJustinS said:He hasn't been by yet, just looked at some pictures I sent him...
When I spoke to his assistant, it didn't seem like he was 100% set on re-piping - he wanted to see it in person before knowing for certain that it was necessary to do so... he commented the other day (as TT did as well) that P/S is not required for this boiler so perhaps there is another remedy...
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So if there was no internal pump, you were told that it would be OK without P/S piping, so long as there was sufficient flow through the HX? But with it installed, it's a problem? Can you explain that?wrxz24 said:
What was told to me is that you can but not the way you have it, remember you have pumps inseries. I assume you could remove the pump inside the boiler but must be careful with the minimum amount of flow needed for the heat exchanger. That was my worry anyway so I just but the bullet and piped it p/s
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Yes but read my thread that I posted in here with my situation. Read what the guys told me on here because I was piped direct too. They talked about being pumped inseries and also I was overpumping the boiler as well. Just made sense to pipe it p/s for my situation. The flow through the boiler is constant and uninterrupted. I have also combined 3 of my radiant zones using just 1 tstat and that makes a huge difference in terms of short cycling.0
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OK, I'll re-read it - thanks!wrxz24 said:Yes but read my thread that I posted in here with my situation. Read what the guys told me on here because I was piped direct too. They talked about being pumped inseries and also I was overpumping the boiler as well. Just made sense to pipe it p/s for my situation. The flow through the boiler is constant and uninterrupted. I have also combined 3 of my radiant zones using just 1 tstat and that makes a huge difference in terms of short cycling.
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If you want to make it foolproof just put in a hydro separator and be done with it. It has insy and outsy holes.
http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/01076_08_NA.pdf0 -
OK, so I *finally* got TT and the supply house to schedule a visit to my house and look at my setup - set for Dec 2nd...
Been looking a bit more at the internal circulator - right now, it's set to Speed 2 so if I understand correctly, that means it's moving ~8.7 gpm at 6.5' ft of head, correct?
So if my calculations above are correct, my two 2nd floor zones would use that up when they're both running, right?
If the 1st floor zone is running too (assuming similar flow rate, just for example), the system would want ~13.5 gpm combined, right? What would this do to the ~8.7 gpm through the boiler? Would it induce *more* flow through the boiler OR would flow through the zones be throttled?
Conversely, if the zones aren't using the HX flow, I assume it's either dead-heading OR perhaps forcing its way through the zone circulators?
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Here's another question but on the Smart 80 - looking at the manual on pg 31, I think it's saying that it needs 24 gpm at a minimum? What does the Boiler Heating Capacity of 340 MBH mean? Does that mean I need that at 24 gpm in order to produce the peak flow, 1st flow, etc that are also listed in the table on pg 31?
I have another 0015 installed on the DHW loop, running at Speed 1 (it was Speed 2 but it was advised on another thread to lower it to Speed 1)0 -
I'm sorry... you've exceeded your allotment of questions for the day. Just kiddin'....... :-)
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Any thoughts on my most recent post?0
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Use a hydro-separator and call it quits! Obviosly the installer does not understand primary-secondary piping (I wouldn't count on the rep understanding it either).0
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https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/posts/18555/Prestige-Application-Booklet.pdfRobG said:Use a hydro-separator and call it quits! Obviosly the installer does not understand primary-secondary piping (I wouldn't count on the rep understanding it either).
Did you see this yet? Check it out. Maybe you can find a set up that resembles what you have already.
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For some reason, that link is not working but Chris on here, provided it for me. Very resourceful booklet plus like he said, it's in color. Maybe it is on the web somewhere....0
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Found it, looks interesting - will have to look it over, thanks!wrxz24 said:For some reason, that link is not working but Chris on here, provided it for me. Very resourceful booklet plus like he said, it's in color. Maybe it is on the web somewhere....
***EDIT***
Cool PDF, thanks for it - the link I found was at http://thermalproductsinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Prestige-Application-Booklet.pdf0 -
TT's coming on Tuesday - can someone comment on my post from 11/22? Thanks!0
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I think you have a lot of things that need work. I wouldn't expect the TT person to be the one address a lot of them. You need a qualified installer. For example, I think running that Taco pump on speed 1 for DHW is to slow. You are most likely stressing the HX. At full fire, you need to move some water thru to keep that HX from flashing-Why not get a few guys out to look at your system and get their opinions, and estimates? I think you will know when you find the right guy-0
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There is no minimum flow on your indirect. All those charts are telling you what assumptions were made in their calculations. You can run the water as slowly and cold as you like provided you have adequate DHW. It is actually much more efficient cold and slow.
You are going to have trouble getting people to help you check calculations on pumps connected in series on a total BS install. If you just pipe the thing per the manufactures specs, you will have no problems. I suspect you are having all sorts of crossflow/backflow issues the way you are set up. It's clearly wrong. If it is important to you to convince the original installer of this, I happen to think you are fighting an un winnable battle. Why not just pay someone a few hours of time to correct the problem."If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
No minimum flow, but only if the DHW is piped as a loop, P/S. If it is piped like many are, with the boiler pump shutting down on a DHW call, the DHW pump must provide minimum flow requirements to the boiler, a pump that is slightly larger than the boiler pump minimum. In this case, I don't really know how it is piped-0
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Well, the one guy I managed to get in touch with (as provided by TT) wanted to get paid to come out and look at it (no free estimate)...ced48 said:I think you have a lot of things that need work. I wouldn't expect the TT person to be the one address a lot of them. You need a qualified installer. For example, I think running that Taco pump on speed 1 for DHW is to slow. You are most likely stressing the HX. At full fire, you need to move some water thru to keep that HX from flashing-Why not get a few guys out to look at your system and get their opinions, and estimates? I think you will know when you find the right guy-
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The boiler pump is configured to shut down during a DHW and is mostly piped as as Figure 9 in the Install guide (except for that stupid loopback between DHW and CH supply)ced48 said:No minimum flow, but only if the DHW is piped as a loop, P/S. If it is piped like many are, with the boiler pump shutting down on a DHW call, the DHW pump must provide minimum flow requirements to the boiler, a pump that is slightly larger than the boiler pump minimum. In this case, I don't really know how it is piped-
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I'm mostly trying to better understand what some potential problems could be so that if the TT and/or sales rep try to convince me it's OK, I am informed enough to call BS on them... as someone pointed out earlier on, my installer is their customer, not me...Zman said:There is no minimum flow on your indirect. All those charts are telling you what assumptions were made in their calculations. You can run the water as slowly and cold as you like provided you have adequate DHW. It is actually much more efficient cold and slow.
You are going to have trouble getting people to help you check calculations on pumps connected in series on a total BS install. If you just pipe the thing per the manufactures specs, you will have no problems. I suspect you are having all sorts of crossflow/backflow issues the way you are set up. It's clearly wrong. If it is important to you to convince the original installer of this, I happen to think you are fighting an un winnable battle. Why not just pay someone a few hours of time to correct the problem.
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So....TT provided you with someone to contact, and now you want to price shop? Did you ask him if he'd waive that fee if he got the job?JustinS said:
Well, the one guy I managed to get in touch with (as provided by TT) wanted to get paid to come out and look at it (no free estimate)...ced48 said:I think you have a lot of things that need work. I wouldn't expect the TT person to be the one address a lot of them. You need a qualified installer. For example, I think running that Taco pump on speed 1 for DHW is to slow. You are most likely stressing the HX. At full fire, you need to move some water thru to keep that HX from flashing-Why not get a few guys out to look at your system and get their opinions, and estimates? I think you will know when you find the right guy-
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He said that if he came out, his intention would be to re-pipe the boiler based on what is needed... it seemed like it was just T+M, if he came out and re-piped, I'd get charged for that... if he just came out to give me his opinion on what needs to be done, I'd get charged for the T he spent doing the estimate with a minimum of 1-hr... my sense is that the estimate probably wouldn't take too much time, just that he bills in blocks of 1-hr...Paul48 said:
So....TT provided you with someone to contact, and now you want to price shop? Did you ask him if he'd waive that fee if he got the job?
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OK, so I met with TT and the supply house today...
They concurred that there was a problem with how the CH-supply was looped back to the DHW-supply...
Initially, they thought about just putting a ball valve in the loopback but then we came to the decision about changing the loopback so that it's between CH-Supply and Return... I asked about closely-spaced Ts and their max distance since it seemed like the loopback would be greater than the 4D/12"... it doesn't look like they'd be exactly closely-spaced Ts but a loop with minimal length - TT said it would be OK...
Thoughts?0 -
Who's doing the re-piping?0
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The supply house is speaking to the original installer to communicate what TT wants0
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As for the boiler loop...there a different configurations of Primary/secondary. In some the boiler can be primary, in others, it is secondary. It really doesn't matter, in that any circs in the system will not interfere with each other.0
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