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Adjusting TT Prestige Solo 110 CH Operation
Comments
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What are the units? My reading on blower door tests seems to indicate that it should be CFM but that sounds like an awful lot...JustinS said:A blower test was done after we moved in when I had an energy assessment done... not sure of the units but it was 3824 before they air-sealed the attic and basement and 3643 afterwards...
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Justin,
I am not sure what your units are. Do you have a copy?
Your mispiped boiler could be doing all sorts of things. Get the piping right then diagnose.
Carl"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
Here you go, I don't think there's very much additional information on it, though...Zman said:Justin,
I am not sure what your units are. Do you have a copy?
Your mispiped boiler could be doing all sorts of things. Get the piping right then diagnose.
Carl
BTW, at this point, I'm just trying to find out what the infiltration is so I can add its BTU cost to the heat loss... as someone pointed out, it's not included so we'll see what additional loss it is...0 -
OK, so I just heard back from TT - first thing he said was that loop between CH and DHW supply has gotta go... and he wants the loop at the end of the CH header so that it becomes piped P/S...0
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Wow... just spoke to the installer, he told me that I don't know what I am talking about, the boiler is NOT short-cycling and that this is what he doesn't like about me... that I, apparently, pry information from people in an effort to use it against others or something... he then hung up on me after saying that he will not fix it under warranty...0
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It is obvious that you somehow altered the installation manual in order to make him look bad.
"Never try to teach a pig to sing, it is a waste of time and it annoys the pig"
I would just move on and have it repiped.
Carl"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
Yeah, working on that - although, he messaged me a short time ago to put me in touch with the TT rep for the area... so we'll see where this goes...0
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Just make sure to educate yourself before the rep comes out so that they will not try and hoodwink you. The contractor is actually the rep's customer, not you. Primary secondary piping is not a new concept. At a minimum it should be piped per the installation instructions. Anything less than that is not acceptable. This site is here to help people, use it to your advantage.
Rob0 -
Looking at the installation manual, the only example that I see with zone circulators is Figure 9 on pg 21... what TT is suggesting doesn't quite match it but it's pretty close... though, as has been pointed out in this thread, pretty close may not be good enough...RobG said:Just make sure to educate yourself before the rep comes out so that they will not try and hoodwink you. The contractor is actually the rep's customer, not you. Primary secondary piping is not a new concept. At a minimum it should be piped per the installation instructions. Anything less than that is not acceptable. This site is here to help people, use it to your advantage.
Rob
It seems like TT is proposing something to Figure 9 but the interconnecting piping between supply and return is on the far end, as opposed to on the boiler side... in addition, there would be no piping (no T's) between CH supply and CH return near the boiler... the loop on the far would be the only joining piping...
One question I have asked TT support is why check valves appear in their examples - Figure 9 has them on all return piping...
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Question - P/S piping often seems to be shown with closely spaced Ts that connect the supply and return piping... TT's diagrams don't have this... this is perhaps P/S in series vs in parallel? I think I saw something about this in that parallel supplies same water temperature to ALL zones, whereas series doesn't... I guess I would want Drawing 4 here (http://comfort-calc.net/primary-secondary_piping_tutorial.html) because all my zones are the same (baseboard)
I am also having trouble understanding something - assuming it was P/S in series (Drawing 1 in above link) - why should the lengths between each set of Ts (per zone) be kept short? I saw something about this keeping delta-P very low so as to prevent flow from entering the zones... doesn't delta-P mean flow (aside from loss across valves and other orifices)?
When the circulator turns ON, this increases the pressure at its discharge, right? By doing so, the delta-P from that point to the discharge T into the primary loop increases, thus increasing flow, right?0 -
The explanation in the link you just posted is very good. Drawing 4 is exactly what you are after. Drawing 6 adds some detail. This is exactly what TT wants (I took their class).
What you have is a bizarre attempt to do a combination of drawing 1 and 2. The problem with it is that the circ provided by TT is doing nothing. Because the CH circ is connected to the DHW connection, the water it is moving does not even go through the boiler.It is just going around in circles in the piping to the right of the boiler. Look in the cabinet and you will see it.
To quote Mark Twain: "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
What I am saying is, Stop arguing with this idiot and get your system correctly piped.
You do know that you have a better chance of seeing Bigfoot than a 20 degree delta T, and that is OK.
Carl
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
Doesn't Drawing 6 show a closeup of series P/S?Zman said:The explanation in the link you just posted is very good. Drawing 4 is exactly what you are after. Drawing 6 adds some detail. This is exactly what TT wants (I took their class).
What you have is a bizarre attempt to do a combination of drawing 1 and 2. The problem with it is that the circ provided by TT is doing nothing. Because the CH circ is connected to the DHW connection, the water it is moving does not even go through the boiler.It is just going around in circles in the piping to the right of the boiler. Look in the cabinet and you will see it.
If I understand you, the CH circulator is discharging flow which may not be going out to the CH loop but rather back into the DHW supply by (up the right side of the cabinet near the CH pump itself)? It then just goes back into the HX discharge into the CH inlet... basically, we have reverse flow through the DHW supply piping?
I've given up on the 20F delta-T - just trying to understand P/S piping properly so that (as RobG said) I am informed when speaking to the TT rep for the installer...
Help me understand this - I thought delta-P was the driving force behind flow... if there is no pressure upstream, there is nothing to force the water downstream... so why is it that reducing the delta-P between the Ts increases the flow through the T? I would have thought it would be the opposite, although I think that I may be confusing pressure drop caused by losses that "eats up" the delta-P available to cause flow?0 -
Reducing ΔP increases flow -- look at the middle portion of any pump curve. Reducing the ΔP between the two tees allows mixing to occur without disruption by the circulator in the primary loop.0
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Drawing 6 shows the details for any primary/secondary loop.
You do not want series. You will have a temp drop from zone to zone.
You are understanding what your existing piping is doing.
Your contractor is a knucklehead. Neither you or the rep will convince him he is wrong. Just give it up.
Carl"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
How does Drawing 6 shows parallel P/S? If the Ts are on different pipes, won't they be much further apart than the 4xD"?Zman said:Drawing 6 shows the details for any primary/secondary loop.
You do not want series. You will have a temp drop from zone to zone.
You are understanding what your existing piping is doing.
Your contractor is a knucklehead. Neither you or the rep will convince him he is wrong. Just give it up.
Carl0 -
The idea of primary/secondary is to have 2 loops with different flow rates that are isolated from a circulation point of view.
No matter what the zones circs are doing, the boiler circ will always provide the boiler with the correct flow rate through the boiler. Forget about series vs parallel on the zoning. You have parallel. All you need to do is have it repiped just like the installation manual. They have already figured all this out. The new installer just needs to follow the instructions.
If you choose to keep going down the road of who is right with the original knucklehead, I wish you the best of luck. He is absolutely wrong and will never admit it, ever. At some point you need to ask yourself who the bigger fool is? You are not going to change his mind..."If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
I understand what the idea is - I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the theory behind it is all... as RobG said...
As of now, I am trying to get in touch with his rep who he claims is the one who showed him the piping... my intent is to make him fix it with TT in support... it may become necessary to have someone else do it but my preference is to have him do it for cost reasons... I don't even know how much it would cost to have this done...0 -
Why don't you just contact the rep and send him the pictures and drawings? If you send it a little higher on the food chain you may get a quicker response. The piping error in you system is not minor or subject to interpretation. I little pressure from above should get the reps attention.
Carl"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
I spoke to the supplier today finally - he gave me the contact info of the TT rep, hopefully he'll call back soon... the supplier said that his intent is to have the TT guy come and take a look at what was done...Zman said:Why don't you just contact the rep and send him the pictures and drawings? If you send it a little higher on the food chain you may get a quicker response. The piping error in you system is not minor or subject to interpretation. I little pressure from above should get the reps attention.
Carl
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I musta missed something.......I thought the knucklehead contractor gave you the reps contact info?0
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No, he gave me the contact info for the supply company who is supposed to give me the contact info for the rep... I spoke to the supply company on Monday and am waiting to hear back from the rep now... called back today a 2nd time...
While I am waiting, I am looking at my air infiltration... according to the blower door test company, my CFM50 is 3643 ft3/min... I remember the lead tech commenting that the house was tight; at the time I just took him at face value...
But now, as I look into it, I'm not so sure... my house is 38 x 28 with a 12 x 2.5 bumpout on the front and has ceilings of 9/8 ft on 1st/2nd floors... for just quick and dirty, I calculated an internal volume of 18513 ft3 (2178 ft2 x 8.5 ft)... with the CFM50 above, this seems to work out to a ACH50 of 11.8...
This seems to be pretty bad... looking at the 2009 IECC, it should around 7 ACH50...
I am also confused by the heat loss for infiltration - what I've seen is Q = V x AirHeatCapacity x ACH50 (18513 ft3 x 0.018 BTU/ft3/F x 11.8) - this seem to work out to an insane 3932 BTU/F/hr loss...
I must be doing something wrong cause at my design temperature of 0F vs 70F, that's over 275k BTU/hr... so I MUST be wrong?
Can someone set me straight? :-) thanks!0 -
Justin, I went through the same thing you are going through. I ended up doing the repiping myself with the help from Zman and others.
I was piped direct and in series and I ended up looping the supply and returns together and adding the closely spaced t's and check valve.
To lengthen my burn times, I actually set the boiler pump to speed 3. I have a combination baseboard and high mass radiant.0 -
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/146252/tt110-trimax-control-question/p1
Here is my thread I started0 -
Thanks, Pete... interesting read...wrxz24 said:http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/146252/tt110-trimax-control-question/p1
Here is my thread I started
Still learning about pumps so could you explain how increasing the boiler pump speed to 3 lengthened your burn times? As I understand it, increasing the speed would reduce the delta-T between supply and return since the water spends less time in the boiler, right? Total BTU transfer remains the same...
Another thing I am wondering - when the boiler pump is OFF, such as during DHW Priority, is there flow through it? It seems that the answer would be no but I am not certain...
Also, in my setup the zone circulators shut off in advance of the boiler pump (they are controlled by T-stats) and the boiler pump runs for 1-min during post-pump purge... since my supply header just ends, I assume this means that the pump is dead-heading during this time, right?0 -
Justin,
For me, delta t at the boiler is not as important as the delta t from each zone. But I am piped p/s now so I am no longer over pumping the boiler.
The faster the water travels through the hx, the boiler can find its sweet spot and keep it there longer. The slower it travels through the hx, the faster it hits it's set point at least in my set up.
I tried all 3 settings on mine and observed the burn times. Speed 3 produced the best results.
Yes, you are dead heading the boiler pump during post pump but you can change that in the installer settings.
In my opinion, the thing you need to do is to pipe it p/s and be done with it.
There should be no flow going into your boiler pump or your heating zones assuming you have a check valve installed.
My installer did not have one on my set up so I was getting flow through my return piping.
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Yeah, working on re-piping it...wrxz24 said:Justin,
For me, delta t at the boiler is not as important as the delta t from each zone. But I am piped p/s now so I am no longer over pumping the boiler.
The faster the water travels through the hx, the boiler can find its sweet spot and keep it there longer. The slower it travels through the hx, the faster it hits it's set point at least in my set up.
I tried all 3 settings on mine and observed the burn times. Speed 3 produced the best results.
Yes, you are dead heading the boiler pump during post pump but you can change that in the installer settings.
In my opinion, the thing you need to do is to pipe it p/s and be done with it.
There should be no flow going into your boiler pump or your heating zones assuming you have a check valve installed.
My installer did not have one on my set up so I was getting flow through my return piping.
How do you know the delta-T from each zone? Do you have individual temperature readings OR did you just run one-zone at a time to get the reading at the boiler return?0 -
Painters tape and thermo gun is what I used.
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Trying to determine the flow from each of my circulators, Taco 0015-MSF2-IFC... If I understand how to read the pump curve correctly, the pump is going to put out whatever flow which corresponds to the head necessary to overcome the pressure loss along the pipe plus the head to lift the water from the basement to the 1st and 2nd floors... Does that sound right?
Assuming that this is correct, the head difference between the floors is easy enough to calculate but what about the head loss along the pipe? I get how to figure out when pumping from A to B but here, I'm pumping in a loop... do I just figure out the total length of the loop?0 -
Justin, I am sure someone more knowledgeable than me can answer that. Anyone?0
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Justin........You are attempting to learn calculus before learning basic math. You have to take the time to learn it all, or it won't make sense. The disjointed questions you keep asking will just get you more confused. Go to Taco FloPro University and sign up, it's free. Start with the lesson on the universal hydronics formula, then go to Hydronics Step by Step. Invest one evening, and then let us know if it's clearer.
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P.S. Mr. Barba has been known to chime in here occasionally, and may answer a question you might have.0
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Justin,
Paul's analogy is quite accurate. Sizing circulators takes quite a bit of background knowledge. Because the system is closed, the vertical elevation has no effect, think of a Ferris wheel.
FloPro University is excellent. Great suggestion.
The 0015 is not an appropriate zone circulator choice for a typical 3/4" baseboard loop. Even at low speed, you will end up with flow rates greater than the recommended 4gpm for your pipe size.
Carl"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
Thank you for the suggestion of the FloPro University - I had been watching lectures and reading but I guess I need a more thorough resource...
And that's just positively wonderful to hear that 0015 is not an appropriate choice... it just keeps getting better and better...
***EDIT***
Ok, so that was very helpful - gonna watch more this weekend but in the meantime, what I gathered from it for sizing a circulator is just to determine the length of its piping loop... from there, you just calculate the head loss for that length and from there, use the curve to determine the corresponding flow...
So, in my 1st floor - I have a single zone which baseboard along the exterior walls... since my house is 38x28, I would expect 132 ft of piping along the 1st floor plus let's say another 10-15 as it connects the 1st floor to the boiler supply and return headers... sound about right? I'd then multiply by 1.5 to capture the elbows and such... we'll call this approximately 150 ft and multiply by 0.04, yielding 6 ft of head loss along my 1st floor loop...
Based on this and that my circulator is running on LO, I'd expect 8gpm? Similarly, on MEDIUM, I'd see 11gpm?0 -
It doesn't work quite like that. The formula you are using gets you pretty close to the resistance of the piping system at 4ft/sec.
So for 3/4" pipe, it would be 6 feet of head at 4 gpm. Since the resistance in the pipe is not linear you would have to plot a curve that represents the system resistance at different flow rates, then compare it to the performance curve of the circulator you are considering. The point at which these 2 curves intersect is your flow rate.
The 0015 on LO looks like it will push right around 6 GPM.
Flow rates higher than 4 GPM cause excess noise and can lead to pipe erosion over long periods of time."If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
OK, so I watched both of the courses that were recommended as well as the more detailed one on circulators...
If I understand your last reply, you are saying that the equation mentioned in the training videos is just an approximation (a sort of back of the envelope calculation)? For calculating system resistance, are you talking about the Darcy equation?
I'm sure that I just not seeing it but how are you getting 6 gpm of flow at 6 ft of head on the pump LO curve? Even if you plotted system curves, that's not a point on the LO curve? Is it?
As to the use of the 0015 - I think the training said that it's more appropriate for radiant heating due to the higher flow rate? Or perhaps a hydro-air system? Probably anything that has lots of bends and loop backs (thinking of the layout of a radiant floor system)?
The training said that a 007 is a great choice for baseboard heating because they can handle a wide range of flow rates... but i thought that you didn't want a wide-range of flow rates? Just 2-4 gpm? Or would that help if using piping other than 3/4"?0 -
Justin......Did you have a few beers while watching those. He works for Taco, and was saying that they have a wide range of flows for many different applications, not within a given one. That's why he didn't mention you by name. Yes, the 007 is a versatile circulator, but not for every application. Look at the curve for the 007, and tell us if it's a good fit for your application.0
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Justin,
The head loss of a system is not locked to the flow rate. It increases exponentially with flow. Once you go to 6 gpm, the head goes to about 9.
Maybe this will help http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
Jeez, sorry that I'm not getting this but I don't think that the beers comment or mentioning me by name was warranted...Paul48 said:Justin......Did you have a few beers while watching those. He works for Taco, and was saying that they have a wide range of flows for many different applications, not within a given one. That's why he didn't mention you by name. Yes, the 007 is a versatile circulator, but not for every application. Look at the curve for the 007, and tell us if it's a good fit for your application.
In the "Choosing A Circulator" segment, the slide specifically said "Flat-Curve Circulators can handle a wide-range of flows in systems such as baseboard and radiator"... clearly, it's all about how you apply the circulator but this language implies that you would have a wide-range of flows in a baseboard system... as opposed to its wide-range of flows making it suitable for many different applications, one of which would be baseboard (assuming you were in the appropriate range of the curve)...
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Thanks - I guess the equation HL = k x c x L x (f1.75) is just an alternative to the Darcy formula? I see how it's similar in terms of friction factor, density but I wonder why it's raised to 1.75, as opposed to 2 as in Darcy...Zman said:Justin,
The head loss of a system is not locked to the flow rate. It increases exponentially with flow. Once you go to 6 gpm, the head goes to about 9.
Maybe this will help http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf
I'm not getting 9ft of head at 6 gpm (or 6 ft of head at 4gpm from earlier)...
I am doing the following:
HL = 0.00295 * 1 * 150 ft * 6gpm^1.75 = ~10.2 ft of head
Did you use a different 'c' factor?0 -
I am not really familiar with the Darcy formula. I am sure some of it applies to your system, it looks like it over complicates things a bit. The formula in the Taco manual should work just fine.
I think you are using the formula you just posted correctly. In my calculation I was making an estimation on the "L" number. Since you can get an exact count on the components and piping in your system, your numbers will be more accurate.
If you apply the formula for several different flow rates, 2gpm, 4 gpm and 6 gpm, then plot (and draw a line between) the correlating flow rates and head losses, you will have your system head loss curve. If you then over lay that curve on the performance curve of the circulators you are considering, the point that the 2 curves intersect will be your flow rate.
The 4 ft/sec shown in the taco manual should be your absolute max. With hot water baseboard any thing over 4 gpm is a waste of circulator energy (unless you have a ridiculous number of heaters on a loop)
Carl
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0
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