Question on billing customers. (not a pricing question)

JOSYS36

Hey all,

Just a quick question to see if this is a common practice. Months ago I had work done here at the house, and with that 2 new circs were installed. The project went very well (Thanks a good part to the people here) and I was pleased. However, one circ was installed slightly improperly and it developed a leak. The issue was that the piping had a slight curve inward towards the boiler, and since the flanges were installed parallel to the boiler, there was a small leak. Since the installer said the leak would seal, and since it was 8:30 at night, I was OK with it. The problem was the leak did not seal and I had to call them back out here to fix it.

I called them back out here and all we did was turn the flanges 45 degrees so that they were perpendicular to the boiler. As soon as that was done it sealed property and tight and I've had no leaks since.

What surprised me was that after a week or so I received a bill for the fix.

I work in information Technology for a consulting company. If I go into a customer site and fix their systems I most surely charge them for that work. However, if I make a mistake and need to go back out, then it's my mistake and I eat the cost. I'm not talking about additional work here I'm saying that I made the mistake so I have to eat the cost. I just can't charge my customers for something that I did wrong. For one thing it isn't the customer's fault, and the other is that it I helps me learn to do things right the first time.

My question is is that how things normally work in heating? I still have not paid the invoice but I also need more work done here. Since I'm rural it's hard to get good people out here, but I'm not happy that I'm being charged for their mistake and something that I pointed out to them.

Jason

Paul48

Simple clerical mistake? You have to call them.

RobG

I would politely call the company and point out that it was the technician's mistake and that you should not have been billed for it. It is possible that the mistake occurred in the billing department of the office.

If I make a mistake I go out and repair it immediately. It's bad for a company's reputation not to. If a tech makes too many mistakes he gets fired. It's called the cost of doing business.

Rob

JOSYS36

It isn't a clerical mistake since they had the name of the guy who came out and the exact amount of time he was here. I have tried to call them numerous times but I have to leave messages and then when he calls me back he calls on my home phone when I'm at work. I also wrote them a letter explaining my position and received another invoice.

The other thing that is annoying to me is that I lost money when they were here working. I knew I would lose some, but then one of the guys had to go home (medical issue with family which I totally understood), and then I had to help them finish the job if I wanted heat that day. No problem I work on farm equipment and all kinds of stuff so between the two of us we had things under control. However, I lost 8 hours of time I could have been billing customers, so that is a loss to me. What was nice is that i didn't lose any money when one guy came out here to repair the install.

RobG

That's a tough situation. I understand you are rural but are you sure that you want to continue working with this company? I understand that it's a principle thing so I would not pay it until they contact you to discus it. (and find another company in the mean time).

RobG

I have never known of nor worked for a company that charged for call backs.

Rob

JOSYS36

I am looking into another company. There are still 4 radiator valves that should be replaced, and really they never did fix the air problems with the compression (steel) tank. They wanted to put in diaphragm tanks but I said you can put in an airtrol tank fitting and the air problems will go away. The piping they did has made the problem much better, but I still have water logging tank issues. But, I'll say that it's MUCH better then it used to be. I saved a ton of money this past winter. The electric bill went way down, and my gas bills were exactly the same as the year before even though it was 30 times or so colder here. I've done a lot around here and they were surprised at how much I knew about how things worked.

icesailor

You're lucky you have that choice. My wife just had her other knee replaced. The hospital was beyond description with incompetence. Their mistakes cost myself and my insurance thousands of dollars. There will be no adjustments.

My neighbor had a new warranty on her new AC replacement system. She paid for a 6 year full warranty no cost replacement policy with the installing company. Two years later, they decided that the coil AH coil was leaking. $600.00 later, she had a new one. You pay before they leave. Try to get your money back unless you pay with American Express.

My rule was: "One buck to a customer" while others always said "Buck me once, shame on you. Buck me twice, shame on me".

Zman

As Paul said, It sounds like a mistake.
How much time had passed before you called again.
Call them and make them aware of the circumstances, if they don't get it, get plenty angry...

gerry gill

in our company we don't charge for call backs..it unfortunately happens from time to time..i actually plan for it and set aside 1% of income into my 'oh s**t' account to handle these hopefully few and far between events..its much easier to put on a smiley face when these events are financially foreseen.
I changed out a boiler we sized wrong once..i just put on my smile as best i could and sucked it up..i have still been working for that same customers for years now.

Jack

Well, calling and writing are not helping. No one is listening. I think I'd collect my phone records, letters, etc and take them to small claims court for lost time and attorney's fees. What happens to you if they decide to turn this over to collections. This can be an invitation to your own personal twilight zone. I hate to put it this way, but you are still the customer...therefore, you are not always wrong.

Zman

I did not see the post where you tried to contact them.

Just because they sent you a bill, that does not mean you have to pay it. Unless you signed a work order agreeing to pay, I would be surprised if you are obligated to pay anything.

I would simply send a certified letter to the contractor and the local better business bureau explaining your position then don't pay them. The letter should probably refer to the installers warrantee and indicate that because the problem was brought there attention on XX/XX/XX date it should be covered.

You could mention in you letter that if the bill is sent to collection, you intend to take them to small claims court seeking damages. I usually call my attorney brother and ask him for some scary words like "treble damages" (I think that means 3X).

If they decide to send it to collection, you can produce the letter and tell them it is a disputed erroneous bill for which the contractor has failed to respond.

In other words, "Don't pay it" and cover you butt if they decide to do something stupid.

It is amazing how cooperative most people are when they think you are likely to sue them.

Just don't forget who has the check book.

Carl

JStar

Was a warranty on labor/craftsmanship ever stated in a contract? If so, then your case is pretty solid. If not, then it could be muddled by legal loopholes.

Both good and bad companies make mistakes. You can identify a great company by how it handles its mistakes.

JOSYS36

I think the main reason that this has not gone to some type of collections is that it's such a small bill. My problem is more principal.

And ya know I would have no problem paying for it if it was some type of unforeseen mistake. Like for instance if something broke. That's no problem for me to pay for since you cannot plan for that type of thing. But, this was something that I pointed out to them and they said would be OK. That wasn't true and really it was not a good way to install. I think that by the time we had gotten that far the tech was ready to go home and eat. I know his point but I've spent 40 hours at a customer site just to get them back up and running again. So, when the need is there, you do what is required to get stuff done.

In any event I am talking with other companies now and we'll see where that goes. I just wanted to get the opinions of this group on how things normally work.

Jason

icesailor

The last place you want to be with money issues is in court. Everyone looses except the judge, attorney's and court workers.

Wish them health, happiness and long distance. Its not worth the raise in blood pressure. Especially when the judge splits the difference and you get half of what the bill was with no other expenses added.

RobG

I'll have to try that one sometime "That leak will seal itself, I'll take that check now".

icesailor

RobG said:

I'll have to try that one sometime "That leak will seal itself, I'll take that check now".

Judging by some of the calls I've been on, there are quite a few that have that in their vocabulary,

TomS

"I called them back out here and all we did was turn the flanges 45 degrees so that they were perpendicular to the boiler. "

Most circs require that the shaft is in a horizontal position - if it isn't you might have to call them back again. I don't know what the reason is for this requirement is though.

JOSYS36

Believe it or not this is still going on. I kept receiving invoices over and over again so I finally called in again. I spoke with yet another individual and explained the whole situation again. She said that she would take all this information and then have someone get back in touch with me. Nothing happened until yesterday when I received a letter in the mail that they were going to file a lien against my property. OK now get this. Not only were they going to put a lien for the one invoice in question, but also for the original invoice where all the initial work has been completed! Problem with that is that I have all the paper work to prove that that invoice has been paid! So another phone call this morning to who sent me the letter, and now I'm waiting for someone to call me back again. I told them this morning that I am going to call them back at 2:00 PM and if we don't have this resolved I am demanding to speak with Management. At this point I've had enough. I'll never have these people here again. I'm really thinking I'm going to have to go down to the office and deal with this. I also asked about warranty for their work and she told me it should be one year. Well we were only weeks into this when I had leaking problems. I sure didn't have them out here to do extra work.

JOSYS36

OK I finally got a call back and they are going to remove the outstanding invoice! And, they apologized for making the mistake on the first invoice trying to file a lien. However, at this point I'm done working with them. This has been a well over a year battle for something that should have been very simple. Plus they never did fix the all the problems I was having here.

Ironman

It's a shame you went through this. And I really don't know what to say about the company other than I wouldn't use or recommend them ever again.

It might serve you well, once they've given you something in writing, to send them a certified letter in return acknowledging their error and informing them that they had better not attempt any collections or negative credit reporting on you.

billtwocase

Sounds like the leak was from the original instal, and they should honor and stand behind that. Too bad a handshake does not work anymore. I would stand behind that, and do.

JOSYS36

Yea I have asked for a letter in writing that says that no lien will be filed, that they are paid in full on one invoice, and that they will credit the other invoice. Just nuts that this took so long. I'll tell you this much I sure can't charge my customers for my mistakes so I was bound and determined that they were not going to charge me for theirs.

Ironman

JOSYS36 said:

Yea I have asked for a letter in writing that says that no lien will be filed, that they are paid in full on one invoice, and that they will credit the other invoice. Just nuts that this took so long. I'll tell you this much I sure can't charge my customers for my mistakes so I was bound and determined that they were not going to charge me for theirs.

I feel exactly as you and I can tell you that quite often I have to go the second mile and eat things that clearly weren't my responsibility. It's what any good businessman has to do to maintain customer relations.

Hilly

I had a apprentice class one time somewhere along the way. They were talking about threading pipe on some heating jobs, and one guy says, "the best about threading is that a small weep will take when the heat gets to it", a reply from across the class was "is that only on threaded fittings, cause I've left solder joints to take up too" I just kept my head in my book and moved on. Not hard to tell why only 3 of 15 of our class got their journeyman certification when it was all said and done. Another guy said his journeyman used to piss on a rag and wrap a thread joint that had a weep on it to get it to stop. Love to have a homeowner reaction if they walked in on that application.

JOSYS36

I'm a systems engineer so I can't wizz on our products, but dang! Yea I know as a homeowner that would first get a huge laugh out of me, and then I would send him on his way. One thing these guys don't know is that Dad (who just passed) was a ship welder for 30 years. I know the tricks, and I know what works and was does not work. Yea it might "take up" when it's hot, but this stuff isn't hot all the time. Amazing when guys get impatient and cut the corners. My first thought would be I can't cut corners these people are paying for this. But, that's just my customer service level.

On a side note I've been in contact with another company and so far I've been treated much better. I also left some online reviews for the former company so that others can judge before they make their decisions. As they say your millage will vary.