PVC Venting on boilers again!

HDE_2

Steamhead said:

Rich said:

OUR STAKE

Sir . Is that we are plumbers and heating technicians whose main objective is

"PROTECT THE HEALTH OF THE NATION "   JUST SAYIN .

Some codes also state that use of galvanized iron pipe is approved for the distribution of potable water , put that in your house . It's OK it conforms to the lead free act .

Well said. Another good quote is "Do no harm".

HDE, we have answered your question. You still have not answered ours. Why are you so fixated on using PVC when there are safer materials available? What's so special about PVC?

The answer is simple.
If the manufacturer allows it, the certifications tested it, and the application is suitable, what business is it of anyone else to continue to spread false rumors and use scare tactics to promote their cause or product.

"Charlotte Pipe and other mfrs. expressly state not to use their products for combustion venting"

Bob, show me where it's states that? They state to follow the manufacturers recommendations for installation. Let's not twist the truth here again.

Steamhead

HDE, you are going in circles. This question was already answered on the first page of this thread, where Chris posted a link to a PDF from Charlotte Pipe.

This is the part that addresses using PVC for venting:

"Furthermore, several of the ASTM standards applicable to
plastic pipe and fittings that Charlotte Pipe manufactures
include the following note: This standard specification does
not include requirements for pipe and fittings intended
to be used to vent combustion gases."

So, they have NOT tested their pipe to any standard that covers venting. Therefore, it is NOT listed for that purpose, and so does NOT meet any Code that requires combustion venting materials to be listed.

That's pretty cut-and-dried to me.

HDE_2

Steamhead said:

HDE, you are going in circles. This question was already answered on the first page of this thread, where Chris posted a link to a PDF from Charlotte Pipe.

This is the part that addresses using PVC for venting:

"Furthermore, several of the ASTM standards applicable to
plastic pipe and fittings that Charlotte Pipe manufactures
include the following note: This standard specification does
not include requirements for pipe and fittings intended
to be used to vent combustion gases."

So, they have NOT tested their pipe to any standard that covers venting. Therefore, it is NOT listed for that purpose, and so does NOT meet any Code that requires combustion venting materials to be listed.

That's pretty cut-and-dried to me.

Cut and dry? How can you say that?

Read the entire link that includes the box on the bottom. Again we shouldn't be selective in our reading and interpretation of all the statements and information that Charlotte provides:

https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/posts/24897/Capture.JPG

Choosing to only mention the side that works best for your agenda continues to perpetuate the untruths. Pretty clear again it goes back to the appliance manufacturer and the requirements/recommendations that they are certified and approved to.

Paul48

The fact, that label exists at all should tell you something. It's not a warning label about using PVC in a DWV system. Why would they produce that? Because they are manufacturing to ASTM standards, and those standards do not have the requirements for plastic pipe and fittings intended to vent flue gases.
With that disclaimer included on the label, I don't know how you can take comfort in the fact you followed manufacturers instructions and used it anyway? It's not an untruth, but the half-truth you're operating on is unacceptable.

j a_2

PVC venting
Low exhaust gas temperatures allows use of PVC, CPVC, ULC S636 and polypropylene vent systems, reducing installation time and costs. System can use 2" venting for up to 60', or up to 150' with 3" venting. This is a common statement I read on the installation manuals….Pretty much I go by there instructions,in these parts If you must ask an inspector how to do your job,he will look funny at you and say READ THE MANUAL…IF IT SAYS YOU CAN THEN YOU CAN….Off subject a bit, but we had one insp. that if you asked him how to do your job, he would say, this is inspectional services not instructional services….Kinda I agree with that...

Steamhead

If the 2006 Ocean City Days Inn CO deaths were any indication, inspectors around here can do whatever they want without repercussions. In that event, a PVC exhaust pipe failed. There was plenty of blame to go around, but everyone got a pass except the contractor.

That's right. The town inspector passed a job that clearly didn't meet Code- even if you argue that Code defers to the manufacturers' instructions. And he got a pass. The contractor was the only one held liable.

Think about it. This is now a legal precedent in the state of Maryland. The courts have decided that if a job was installed improperly, only the contractor is responsible, whether it passed inspection or not. Why would it be any different next time?

With polypropylene or stainless steel, at least you have a UL listing to protect you if something goes seriously wrong.

HDE_2

Sorry ocean city doesn't work as an example. It was a incomplete venting found to be the cause, not a PVC vent failure. This could happen in any installation with any venting material.

As a volunteer fireman I've carried out plenty of people that have succumbed to CO, two were dead, none from PVC venting. Just the common 26g single wall and b-vent.

Again your guilty, maybe unknowingly, of putting a false spin on a tragedy to build your PVC case, why is that?

That's the purpose of this post, why does so many persons post false info, incomplete or incorrect information about PVC venting when it's allowed to be used in certain situations?

Why do we keep bring up UL listing?
For the umpteenth time, CSA approves when appropriate PVC vents on appliances. They also happen to approve the other materials such as CPVC, Poly & SS.

CSA International certification marks indicate that a product, process or service has been tested to a Canadian or U.S. standard and it meets the requirements of an applicable CSA standard or another recognized document used as a basis for certification.

For consumers, CSA International certification marks are intended to provide increased assurance of quality and safety. For manufacturers, international recognition of the mark may help to ease their entry into North American markets. CSA International certification marks are accepted by many North American regulators and by a large number of North American retailers. Billions of products bearing CSA International certification marks are found on the shelves of well-known retail chains and sold by major product distributors.

CSA International tests products for the North American and International markets against applicable standards including those of the Canadian Standards Association (CSA), Underwriters Laboratories (UL), National Sanitation Foundation (NSF), American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and other agencies.

Steamhead

HDE, read my post again. I said "there was plenty of blame to go around", meaning the PVC venting wasn't the only problem. But it WAS a significant part of the problem.

The story I got was that the PVC venting pipe for a certain mod-con boiler failed, filling the boiler room with CO. The CO got into several rooms above the boiler room, and that's where the people died. The boiler manufacturer, the supply house that sold the boiler, the owners of the Days Inn, the town inspector that passed the job when he shouldn't have and the contractor who made the faulty installation were all named in the lawsuit. In the end, only the contractor was held liable.

That certainly got my attention- it could have been anyone who installed PVC venting.

It's true that there are sometimes failures of other types of combustion venting, but that's a different topic. Back on this topic, I would have wanted to know why there was so much CO- was the oxygen in the boiler room depleted that much, did the air intake fail as well, pulling oxygen-depleted air from inside the boiler room, or was this yet another case where the installer did not perform a combustion test?

If you have information to the contrary, how about posting a link so we can all read it, rather than attacking other posters?

RobG

The Navien CH-240 manual states that if the space heating water temp can exceed 140 degrees CPVC or polypropylene must be used (I just pulled up the Navien because I had the manual open anyway). It is in small print but how many installers actually read the small print? Manufacturers try to sell on a price point but we as professionals must hold ourselves to a higher standard.

JMHO,
Rob

icesailor

"" CSA International tests products for the North American and International markets against applicable standards including those of the Canadian Standards Association (CSA), Underwriters Laboratories (UL), National Sanitation Foundation (NSF), American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and other agencies. ""

I wanted to leave this alone, but your statement that CSA approval makes it legal in the USA is bogus. The Veissmann Vitodens boilers I installed at the time mentioned PP venting, and their brand was CSA and UL Listed. But you could use Sch. 80 CPVC for the exhaust and Sch40 for the air intake. The newer PP pipe was approved in Canada and met the CSA approval but not in the USA. I can't remember the brand at this moment in time. I called them. They told me that it wasn't approved yet in the USA with a UL listing. That if I used it, it was at my own peril.

I asked my AHJ. He said that if it wasn't on the approved list from the Board, it wasn't allowed. And until it had a UL Listing, it wouldn't be. In 2013, it was allowed.

When the PlexVent (Etc.) plastic venting started back in the 1990's, it was Canada that outlawed it. You could still use it in the USA. Until there were enough problems with it that it was ordered to be replaced. Which it wasn't. You can still find it installed.

If YOU want to use Sch. 40 PVC, knock yourself out. I personally wouldn't be such a firm advocate for something that so many have told you that it is illegal to use it in your application. Especially when there is a far better substitute available.

As a Master Plumber for 40 years, and a Journeyman for 50, I was there when PVC came in. We were taught how to install it. What we were taught about preparation and installation then, and what I see an overwhelming majority of PVC connections made today, are totally wrong. Not even close. Whenever I see the writing go into the socket, I know that the joint is improper. The pipe wasn't cleaned. And that Purple Inspectors cleaner is junk. If you don't clean it twice, you haven't cleaned the writing off and the pipe isn't clean. The cleaner is part of the assembly procedure.

j a_2

If I read you correctly, you only use cleaner and glue...

RobG

j a said:

If I read you correctly, you only use cleaner and glue...

What is the question? I have never heard of anything other than primer and glue to solvent weld PVC (besides a chop saw and chamfering tool).

j a_2

Exactly primer and glue , i have seen so many over the years use cleaner and glue….Not good

j a_2

In some supply houses people ask for primer and glue and they sell you glue and cleaner…Not the same…..I hear in some places purple primer is code…Don’t really know the reason but code is code…We never has to use purple lead haha

j a_2

When we changed over from 50/50 to no lead solder a lot of us did not like it,in fact a lot of guys were using 50/50 and then skim coating it with the new stuff so when they did the lead test it would pass….Funny thing,a ton of homes are fed with lead water supplies….Go figure

RobG

I'm pretty sure that the cleaner and purple primer are the same formulation except the primer has the purple dye to make it easier on the inspector.

Rob

j a_2

Cleaner as I know it is not primer

icesailor

Clear solvent/cleaner is clear and cleans the scum off the pipe. It is supposed to soften the pipe and fitting so that when you apply the cement to the male and female ends of the joint, it softens the material and allows the cement to make a welded bond.

Clear solvent cleaner makes an excellent de-greaser. Especially on oil burner igniter and nozzle assemblies.

Purple "cleaner" or whatever you choose to call it is for lazy inspectors who can't be bothered looking to see if the pipe was properly cleaned.

Chamfering tool? What's that? Aren't you supposed to leave the end of the pipe as sharp as you can so it slides the cement out of the joint?

Those guys that didn't like lead Free Silvabrite Solder are just dinosaurs. Once you go to Lead Free, and you do some heat and decide to be cheap and buy 50/50, you realize right away that 50/50 is like water and runs right out of a fitting/ Just like 95/5 does. That's why the smart plumbers who did large pressure fittings soldered it together with 95/5 and filled the ends with 50/50 Solder. Before 50/50 was outlawed.

You can easily do that because No Lead and 95/5 have a much higher melting point than 50/50. If you've been regularly using No Lead on potable water pipes, and you make a switch to heating where you can use 50/50. you might find that it is cheaper to use no lead because it is thicker and you will be overheating the 50/50 for a while. Having leaks. If you're using flame thrower torches, you have more leaks anyway, One leak on a 50/50 joint will pay for a couple of spools of No-Lead.

j a_2

Hello Cleaner is for cleaning and use of cleaner is not in mass code… use it if you want What is code is Primer and glue….Purple cleaner/primer is required in some areas due to environmental reasons…..primers are of a ketone base and that is the start of the two part solved weld process…..

icesailor

http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php/bill-pr-3/

Hello, I used Pistol Pete and Big Bill. I bought cement in pint or quart cans so it stayed fresh. I bought the solvent cleaner in pint and quart cans so I could keep fresh, clear primer/cleaner. I used it for a lot of other things. I wanted fresh clean primer cleaner.

KC_Jones

I went through a training class given by Spears a couple years ago. They actually came to our plant to instruct on the proper manufacturer approved method for joining PVC pipe. I am a designer, but it helps me to know how things are done so I can be more effective at designing and translating that into production. They gave us a nice little booklet that covers most of the basics for making these joints. Here is a link to the electronic copy. It seems goofy, but it's effective. Just thought I would share. The biggest eye opener for our shop, cure times. we were getting some leaks AND couldn't hit dimensions from the design layout. Turns out the pipe was pushing back out of the tapered socket because we didn't clamp it long enough. We do pipe up to 16" and were not keeping the pipe clamped up for nearly enough time. Once we got that straight it was smooth sailing after that. It seems like a simple thing, but often times it's not as simple as it seems.
http://www.spears.com/how_to/SOLV-3P-1006_1006_web.pdf

icesailor

"" We do pipe up to 16" and were not keeping the pipe clamped up for nearly enough time. ""

Funny thing about that backing out of the fitting.

It became a habit of mine to always mark the depth of make-in on the pipe so I could see if it starred to back out. Sometimes, it waits a while then backs out.

If you don't chamfer the pipe, it stays in better. Because you probably wiped the cement off the socket part of the fitting. You need cement on both surfaces at the same time for a proper solvent weld connection.

KC_Jones

The chamfer also helps seat it in the socket because the bottom edge of the bottom of the socket is rounded not a sharp corner. Ice our shop has to do the same thing to make sure it doesn't back out...now. We have special jigs for the big stuff and usually leave it clamped up overnight since at that size it's very low production and we can give it plenty of time. You mention the chamfer a lot I have noticed and you are right to. The manufacturer told us also how critical that simple step is. Funny how the little simple things are the most critical.

j a_2

Was reading a manual for a new updated mod/con….they spec. sch 40 pvc for venting…The reason is there are limit switches not allowing the exhaust to exceed pvc sch. 40 ratings…..I find com fort in that

Steamhead

Limit switches can fail.

j a_2

And the unit shuts down, as it should....

RobG

What do you think the first thing the owner or handyman will do when the limit trips? They will jumper it out and forget about it since they now have heat. It's not how it should be, but it's how it is.

Rob

j a_2

The same goes with pretty much any boiler safety device….My point is, in the manual I read it clearly states the type of venting approved and WHY……I was just passing it along…

Zman

I think all the facts are on the table on this one.
I think in the end we will all see big changes on the way these are vented
Any chance you guys will agree to disagree?

SWEI

When Centrotherm lowered their prices, we decided to commit. No more PVC flues with our name attached.

j a_2

Us, We will as always read the manf instructions, as always, and conform. As well as local codes and common sense . Let the code be your friend

HDE_2

SWEI said:

When Centrotherm lowered their prices, we decided to commit. No more PVC flues with our name attached.

They needed to, and that does help a lot.

But bringing up part of my original point, the boiler flue temps Carol quotes exceeds Centrotherms upper temperature limit. so she writes its unsafe too.

HDE_2

RobG said:

What do you think the first thing the owner or handyman will do when the limit trips? They will jumper it out and forget about it since they now have heat. It's not how it should be, but it's how it is.

Rob

Most of these systems are not just open/close switches incorporated but thermistors that must give the control board the correct feedback voltage or resistance. No way to jumper them out.

SWEI

The mod/cons we install do not see flue temps anywhere near that high. I'm actually more concerned with chloride leaching and potential joint failure. The amount of condensate raining down a vertical flue can be quite significant, and with joints facing both directions even a pinhole leak can make all kinds of mess inside a boiler cabinet.

HDE_2

It's appropriate now to share UL's view of PVC appliance venting:

"UL certified gas-fired appliances and venting systems for these products are intended for installation in accordance with the following installation codes:
• ANSI Z223.1/NFPA 54 National Fuel Gas Code
• International Fuel Gas Code
• International Residential Code
• Uniform Mechanical Code.
These codes include requirements intended to minimize the hazards associated with high temperatures and combustion gases. In general, factory built vents and chimneys are required to be listed (certified), except for instances where limited use of metal chimneys and vents are specifically allowed. In general, US codes permit Category IV gas-fired appliances to be vented using unlisted plastic vents where such vents are tested and covered under the specific appliance listing. These vents are intended to be installed in accordance with the appliance manufacturer’s installation instructions."

http://ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/UL_Venting-Gas-Appliance.pdf

Will you all continue to attempt to argue the UL listing requirement for PVC that can't happen?

icesailor

I can see that YOU have never been on the wrong side of a legal argument with an argumentative Lawyer who is defending a client and you are the one that has caused the potential problem.

Those statements you posted are as vague as my teenagers were when they were living at home and still in school.

I guess you could use the Criminal Code.

Admit NOTHING

Deny EVERYTHING

Demand PROOF.

Of course, that goes both ways.

HDE_2

At least everyone can stop stating PVC needs UL listing and approvals when they state they don't do it. And I didn't make the vague statements, UL did.

What good would it do anyways, any thoughts of bringing suit in court against Underwriters Labratory would be tossed out and wouldn't stick.

Point here again is its the manufacturer, looking for someone to hold accountable it's them, who cares about listings?

Paul48

This is settled.....You're right. In fact, everyone is right. Everyone has the right to choose. You can't change their mind, and they can't change yours. This horse was dead, many posts back.

HDE_2

Paul48 said:

This is settled.....You're right. In fact, everyone is right. Everyone has the right to choose. You can't change their mind, and they can't change yours. This horse was dead, many posts back.

Agreed, my statements has always followed the codes and rules. It is a choice, the manufacturers in most cases allows that choice, and no one should speak or attempt to scare anyone based on unsubstantiated truth.

archibald tuttle

Wow, this thread is taking the wall from a fire hose -- i.e. a flexible vent pipe not approved for flue use.

"They will jumper it out and forget about it since they now have heat. It's not how it should be, but it's how it is."

just because some will defeat safeties doesn't make temp controlled exhaust, maybe even as an aftermarket protection of PVC flues a bad idea. see, e.g. low water cutoffs -- never used in hydronic that i observed in my first 25 years, and GSK-x style aftermarket spill switches (why are some of them numbered 1,2,3 and others numbers with the cutout temperature, but i digress . . . )

I gotta give it to HDE here. although the everybody is right meme isn't way off base. the point is that folks kept telling HDE he was wrong. which brought him back , not as some kind of troll of the PVC industry but as a thinking rational person.

It is all fine to be high and mighty about the profession but it talking about the installed base of rotting 24 and 26 gauge forgets, how many plumbers rebuild unlined chimneys when installing or servicing.

This could chase its tail forever. As fraught as the PVC/plastic venting has been, I've more often employed unconventional or perhaps neo-conventional venting for failed chimneys than for efficiency.

And SWEI, who recently chimed in here, said they've actually been seeing condesning in boilers serving traditional radiation , which is to say convective baseboard. You can't prove it by me but i'm interested to hear what else he has to say on the subject. I just don't see how you get below 140 except maybe at startup and the most mild shoulder season (which of course raises the question of the venting used in condensing boilers that are never going to condense - or not most of the time.