PVC Venting on boilers again!

Steamhead

The problem is that HDE has not told us why he keeps hammering at this. We don't know who he is or who he works for.

The technical aspects that have been discussed here really have no bearing on the situation. Legally, what matters is that PVC/CPVC has not been listed for venting combustion products, and probably never will be. That means wherever a Code specifies that venting materials be listed, PVC/CPVC does not meet Code. End of story.

Our company will not use PVC/CPVC for venting, for reasons we've already stated. We prefer to read about the resulting lawsuits as they happen, rather than being involved in one of them. But we all suffer when these cases go to court, since it makes the entire industry look bad.

archibald tuttle

i think this is case of immovable object and irresistable force. he has said he thinks the question is harder to parse in code and practice than you make out by the single citation to venting materials listed independently of manufactuerers instructions.

it seems that not inconsistent with practice, by which i mean inspection practice, to read the codes consistent with hwe's take.

he answered the question you asked about his interest, saying his interest is correcting misinformation and has cited one materials manufactuers ul listing for vent use up to 149 i believe. as well as his citations to equip. manufactuers recommendations and the codes textual embrace of those recs, your citation notwithstanding. he hasnt been dismissive of higher temp solutions from cpvc to pp to ss but
maintains pvc is also approprate in certain circumstances.

maybe you dont believe that his interest is a academic or abstract but you should say that instead of ignoring what he has said.

i just dont detect a lurking agenda other than not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

brian

Paul48

How many more minutes of your lives do you want to waste, arguing this point? Are we now going to argue, how to argue this ridiculous point? Maybe the time would be better spent stopping a clueless homeowner from using paper towel tubes to vent his boiler?

SWEI

Condensing boilers work just great with fin tube baseboard and convectors. Supply temp at the bottom of the reset curve usually ends up around 100˚ to 110˚F (egregiously undersized baseboard excepted of course.)

HDE_2

Thanks Arch!

Inciteful observations

I joined the wall around 1998 if I recall after attending one of Dans seminars. I was absent for awhile, my signin was lost when I returned so now I'm on my second. I think in fact it was cleaned out of the files as I could never search myself.

I have to ask, what's it matter who or what I do? I just posted the facts and ask for the truths. Look me up, in the past I posted helpful information not meaning to be agravating. If I was a troll, I would have no history right?

Even if I was a boiler or water heater manufacturer employee, you realize they don't participate here on the wall because of the homeowner involvement, DIY and product bashing right?

Sad but true, they are all gone....................Remember the days when they would answer on here?

Over 3,000 views with maybe only a dozen or so posters, a lot of interest in the subject you have to admit. What your all writing is read by many, opinions may be strong here and can be accepted as factual, misinterpreted or laughed at. Just my $0.02.

unclejohn

In a year or two this will be a moot point because like it or not PVC venting is on the way out with boilers. Forced air will most likely follow even though their temps are low enough.

HDE_2

unclejohn said:

In a year or two this will be a moot point because like it or not PVC venting is on the way out with boilers. Forced air will most likely follow even though their temps are low enough.

UncleJohn, do you have documentation on this to share with us or is it a stated personal opinion only?

Steamhead

It's already a moot point with us. We do not install PVC or CPVC for venting combustion products. There are much safer alternatives that carry UL listings, so why would we use something that is not listed and expose ourselves to the inevitable liability?

HDE_2

There we go with UL listings again, which mean nothing.
Who would you sue if needed, UL? Of course not and by the way you cant. It would be the manufacturer who has the vent tested if installed as per instructions right?

Steamhead

It's not about us suing someone, it's about us getting sued if it fails.

Unclejohn is right. The industry is (quite sensibly) moving away from PVC/CPVC venting- and not a moment too soon. For us, UL-listed stainless steel or polypropylene only. If someone is too cheap to pay for it, they can hire someone else.

HDE_2

Understood
But you do understand Steamhead, PVC is listed by the manufacturer with installation requirements stated, and approved by CSA?

That's a listing.

CSA includes and exceeds UL requirements with gas fired equipment.

Steamhead

Jack said:

The topic that

correctly, in my opinion, will not go away. Charlotte took a page from the tobacco industry. They have published their disclaimer. Nowhere in any of the ANSI Standards to which their pipe is tested is appliance venting listed. their "tobacco" warming that tells you that then goes on to say that "the appliance manuf are best able to determine the best venting methods on their appliances". Essentially saying they are disclaiming any liability by posting tobaccos warnings. I think some enterprising attorney will blow right through that defense.



I represented Selkirk back in the Plex-vent/Ultravent days when the product was recalled. Wow, what a scene. I think PVC is going to end up being the mother of all recalls...someday

Someday the Trail Lawyers Assoc is going to get wind of this "unapproved product" with big numbers attached to it and whether it works or not, it will blow the whole thing up. There will just be too much money attached to it. I wonder how the CPSC views this?



The thing is, when we began using PVC for a vent material there was really nothing else. Today there are better products and they are available.

Jack's post says it all, HDE. Read it again, especially the last sentence.

HDE_2

As long as you brought up ANSI Standards, because PVC venting also meets their requirements under exact conditions -

How Appliances are Certified:

Gas fired boilers and water heaters are required to be safety certified by a third party testing agency according to the American National Standards/CSA Standards. Boilers are design certified to ANSI Z21.13/CSA 4.9 and commercial water heaters are design certified to ANSI Z21.10.3/CSA 4.3. As a part of this certification, the appliance must undergo tests to assure the specified venting system is appropriate for use with the appliance. Each standard includes specific test procedures for Non-metallic venting like PVC/CPVC. The appliance is placed in a closet and the water temperatures are raised to the highest permissible level. This generates the highest flue gas temperatures. Under these conditions, data is collected to verify the vent material’s temperature limitations are not exceeded. The vent tests measure the actual pipe material temperature, not the flue gas temperature to determine the effect of hot flue gases on the vent material. ANSI test procedures are under constant review by the ANSI standards committees to assure the test conditions are appropriate and up to date.

What's the argument here?
I know and understand this subject intimately, again I am not trying to be a jerk, only sharing facts and dispelling all the myths and spoken untruths about the subject.

Steamhead

It's not the appliance, it's the pipe that has not been tested and listed for use in combustion venting.

Jack posted, "Nowhere in any of the ANSI Standards to which their pipe is tested is appliance venting listed". And, as I've said earlier, it probably never will be.

But go ahead- if you really are an installer, install all the PVC venting you want. I'm not liable for it if something goes wrong, and neither is anyone else in this thread.