Trap on 4" sewer main in basement

KC_Jones

So I had a sewer back up the other day and decided this was beyond my abilities (and equipment) as a homeowner.  My wife's brother is a plumber so we called him in to help.  Long story short I got to see my sewer pipe on TV and we are now running clear and have a clean bill of health.  Anyway he is a plumber in Maryland and I live in Pennsylvania and I had something in my basement he says he has never seen.  About 2-3' before my drain leaves the house I have a trap (with cleanout and it's fine).  Now I don't know if this is still code or what the deal is, but he says in Maryland there MIGHT be something like that outside the house, but he has never seen anything like it inside the house.  My house is over 100 years old and this is all cast iron fittings so it's very old.  Does anyone know anything about this type of setup?  Does the trap really need to be there?  I have a small section of cast iron pipe that comes out of this trap that needs replaced.  He is suggesting I eliminate the trap as part of this replacement.  I figured I would throw it on here because of all the great information I have gotten already.  Would it be worth it to just call the town office and ask them?  Just want to figure out my path going forward any help is appreciated thanks!

Jamie Hall

That's a house trap

and they weren't that uncommon at one time (the place I care for has two of them on the main building).  They are or were required by code in some jurisdictions.



The whole idea behind the thing is to prevent sewer gasses from entering the house plumbing.  They really aren't needed (unless your code says they are!) if all the rest of the traps in the house are properly vented, and if there are any floor drains or such like (including seldom used bathrooms!)  that arrangements are available to keep them wet.  On the other hand, they won't hurt anything... until they clog up.



They should be vented, however, just like any other trap.  If they are outside, there would be a vent also outside.  If they are inside, they may be vented through the rest of the plumbing (although that means that they are running traps which aren't really that great to have), but I have seen some vented with a short vent going to a grille in the foundation...

KC_Jones

Good condition

It is in good condition and flowing freely the only problem I have is the rotting piece (24" long) of cast iron leading into it.  Most of the DWV in the house has been changed to PVC only this area and a main stack vent are still cast iron.  The trap in the basement I guess would be considered a running trap because the closest vent is a good 30' away on the other side of the basement.  It's the main vent in the house.  I will admit some of the plumbing is a bit butchered from previous owners, but this trap appears original...well original for the plumbing.  As near as I can tell the plumbing and for sure electrical wasn't original in the house.  I will probably call the borough office and see if they can tell me if I still need it or not.  I have found PA is a bit fast and loose when it comes to building codes especially with plumbing and electrical.  They didn't have sate wide building codes until like 2003 until then it's whatever each town felt like doing.  Thanks for the reply!  These old houses can be quite educational!

icesailor

House Traps:

As others have told you, its a "House Trap". Used back just after the end of the Pleistocene era, after the Dinosaurs died off. Back then, proper venting wasn't the norm. Way back when, if you read Oliver Twist, he was a chimney sweep. They had to be small and when not sweeping chimneys, they cleaned out the sludge pits under houses in London where all the human waste ended up. If you ever read some old story about people dying from "The Vapors". it was the gas vapors from decomposing sludge. Methane gas being one of them. They could also blow up houses.

Venting was not well understood. What WAS understood was that the same rotting sludge was caught in the square bricked sewers. Which were designed to fit the size of Oliver Twist and his small friends. They got to dig out the sludge.  It was also noted that because of a lack of proper venting in plumbing systems, the broken trap seals ended up venting the public sewers. Some wag decided that the homeowner of the day shouldn't be responsible to vent the public sewers. So the "House Trap came in to being. It trapped the municipal sewer gasses from entering the building. Normally, the house vent was the same size as the main sewer drain and installed on the house side with a vent terminating through the foundation wall. They were almost always "running traps" with cleanouts above the actual trap so you could collect things. Lost wedding and engagement rings and small dental appliances come to mind.

You can guess the age of the house if there is no 4" vent through the roof and a 4" vent on the other side of the basement. That vented the building sewer.

Massachusetts doesn't allow them. But if you do install one,,,,  So they can be installed for reasons.

Note that the broken and rotted piece of pipe beyond the trap is very common in old houses/When the cast iron pipe was cast, it is just that. Cast. Note the casting form lines on the pipe and the sand marks on the pipe. It also is sized before any pipe standards and will be smaller than standard pipes of today. Fernco couplings might be used to connect the two sizes together. Tree roots just LOVE Fernco Couplings. So much so they they will break the clamps if given the opportunity. No Hub couplings are a better choice and you take another rubber coupling and split it in half around the diameter and use it as a spacer for the old pipe.

If you don't have at least a 3" DWV pipe running from the basement drain full size through the roof. leave the foundation vent in place. It is venting the whole waste system. If you remove it, you might start having trap seal loss worse than you already might.

KC_Jones

No foundation vent

The only "main vent" is the one running through the roof and it is 4" the whole way up, seemed massive when I moved in, but makes more sense after your explanation.  There is currently a Fernco installed to join the 4" PVC to the 4" cast iron pipe.  And yes my brother in law already suggested a no hub coupler.  I trust his judgement, just wanted some insight on the main trap since he hadn't really dealt with them before.   I guess in the area he works either they removed them before his time or never had them hard to say.  Oh and the main stack (since it's vertical) is in mint condition.  In the process of remodeling I have inspected the entire length and it is rock solid thankfully!  Again thanks for all the insight, coming to the wall is always educational!

icesailor

Look like this:

Did it look like this?

KC_Jones

No thankfully

What I have left looks a lot better than that.  Yikes.  When I had my house inspected the main line running across the basement had a ton of stalactites hanging from it so I had the previous owner replace it before I bought the house.  Unfortunately he did the work himself and stopped short of the end of the pipe by about 24" and that is what now needs replaced.  He stopped because the last section seemed okay and it is where the basement utility sink ties in so I guess he just took the lazy route.  Oh well it has lasted me 12 years and I can't expect to never have to do anything to my house!  lol

icesailor

Stalactites:

Stalactites appear where there is a crack in a horizontal drain in old cast iron. With a vertical drain, the crack spreads open. You wouldn't believe the force required to cause that crack. IMO, the bottom of the pipe can crack in old pipe with leaking toilets and faucets having a slow stream across the bottom. Vertical ones have the water flowing around the entire inside of the pipe. But will find a path down some side of the inside with a slow leak. That's where the crack appears. Some old pipe is better than other old pipes. Sometimes the center core of the casting is not properly centered. You can see this if you cut all the way across the pipe with a sawzall. Where you are, the plumber probably bought all the pipe for the job from one place and all the pipe is new and from one supplier. Where I worked, everything had to be brought in as freight on a boat. So, you might find one piece in a stack that was split but of a different brand. Because the plumber had left over lengths from other jobs. If you find one split pipe in a house, chances are, you will find more of the same manufacturer. I've seen three different manufacturer's pipe in one horizontal drain in an old house.

jumper

rat prevention?

Long ago Toronto had unvented building traps outside. Somebody thought that sewer rats wouldn't swim through them.

icesailor

Nautical rodents:

Jumping crabs, rats and snakes have no problems jumping through toilets. So, sit in piece. If they're gonna get you, they'll get you. Those big Norwegian Roof Rats be jumping into roof vent terminations too. Unless you put screens to keep them in or out.

Jack

Reminds me

of the time my Mother-in-law, a wonderful girl, was screaming from the upstairs bathroom. Something about the "beady little eyes" of the dead squirrel floating in the toilet. Freaked her out!



When I was an apprentice I worked on one of the vet school lab buildings at Cornell. There was a 12" building trap at the bottom of the riser. There was a nipple and plugged valve on the bottom of the trap. I don't think anyone had ever pulled that plug, so...I did. I got just a tad under 2 qts of mercury out of that trap. Can you imagine how many thermometers were broken in the lab sinks over how long a period to get that much mercury.

icesailor

Trap Debris:

Who'd a thunk.



I've been asked to open traps to look for lost earrings,  engagement and wedding rings. I've found them too.

Steve_210

In New York City there still required, must be vented to the outside wall then vent must be minimum half the size of the sewer line
When I was going for my license one question was why were they required and the answer was to discourage sewer rats

JoeyG_2

Hey @KC_Jones‌ ... Fernco couplers and no-hub couiplers will work, but I'd use something with a little more meat than those.. It is for you main drain dude.. I've used a Mission Rubber CP44. Mission Rubber is a company similar to Fernco. I bet Fernco has the same one with a different SKU. It goes from 4" PVC to 4" No-Hub. Its alot stronger than the other two.. Google it and or check it out next time you're at your supply house. Looks like the cast to copper couplings... Oh, and by the way.. Use the Baseball Bat and not the hockey stick if you intend to smash that CI house trap apart. Turtle Power!!!!

KC_Jones

Thanks for the input. Here is another question, the trap is in decent shape it's only the pipe leading into it that is having issues. If it was your house would you go to the effort to bust up all the concrete to remove the trap or just fix the pipe and leave the trap? In all honesty the trap hasn't caused me any issues just the pipe at this point. And since I am not a plumber nor an expert, you mention a 4" PVC to a No-Hub...what is a No-Hub? Is that the cast iron socket or something else? Looking for a bit of education here.

JoeyG_2

No-hub is basically a line of cast iron fittings and pipe that has no hub or rather, no female end to insert a male. You would use a no-hub coupling to connect them. They use that stuff in houses but you may have also seen it hanging from the ceiling in parking garages. The couplings look like a lighter and shorter fernco with an outter stainless band around it and then the two clamps (hose clamps). Oh yeah, If that traps not causing ya any problems and it doesn't look fun to change, do the John Lennon dude and just "Let it be".

KC_Jones

If we are quoting songs....I can see clearly now.... My trap actually has a hub on it and the joint to the pipe is an old lead/hemp type joint. The only obvious way I see to use those Fernco style couplings is to leave a short section of the pipe coming out of the trap. That is unless I am missing something. I will have to take a picture of my trap and post it so you can see what I have going on. And yes the trap would not be much fun to remove because it's partially in my concrete slab that was poured long after the plumbing was installed. I am sure you can imagine that part.

icesailor

The trap is fine. It is usually a different kind of Cast Iron, not the same as the old pipe that could have been made from a lot of things to keep it cheap. The fittings don't usually go like the pipe will.

You can get the pipe out of the fitting. Or at least "I" can. I don't know if you or others can without breaking the pipe or the trap fitting. Its OK to break the pipe, just not the fitting.

Mission clamps are not easy to find in the model you might need. And it may not fit your needs.

There are other types of "No-Hub" Couplings. One made by Tyler has rubber sleeves that are equal in thickness on the whole rubber gasket. There is another kind that I can't remember the brand, but they come as either 2 band or 4 band clamps. They have the clamps painted either yellow of a turkey ship green. There is a third that has a smooth clamp (Clamp-All) and it had a protrusion in the rubber on the outside. You can't use that kind of clamp if the old pipe is smaller than the new pipe. If one pipe (older) is smaller, the best coupling to use is a Tyler type, get two clamps, and split the gasket of one clamp to get two spacers to equal the difference between the old and new.

I would highly recommend NOT using a Fernco Coupling. Especially inside. It is my experience that they fail within 5 years when inside. In the ground, it's "Out of sight, Out of mind".

RobG

If there is a hub on the pipe that the running trap goes into you can buy a gasket that will insert into the hub and accept PVC or cast iron (it's not easy inserting the pipe). You just lube it up and force it in. Did that sound crude? As others have said though, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! Here's an example.

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/plumbing/fittings/flexible-pipe-fittings/4-x-4-hub-donut?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=Cj0KEQjw7vmgBRDdnLPZp7aBlroBEiQA7_NmV4YYFeTr8DvWsPkNQcTXGrtN90jxU5OryCPeQ1xUny4aAmfa8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds


Rob

KC_Jones

Ice I love the way you put things "Or at least "I" can.". I can be pretty determined at times, but correct me here if I am out in left field. Can't I use a little heat and melt the lead out? Would that be a good idea or bad idea? I have dealt with melting lead on car bodywork, but this is a whole different animal. I respect my brother-in-law as a plumber, but knowing my wife's family and him they are more sledge hammer type people and I am not. I am hoping to be able to do this without busting out a ton of concrete since that is just more work I have to do. He of course isn't worried about my concrete since it isn't his problem. I like some of the options presented and will look into them for sure! I really appreciate all the input. I need to get my boiler in order first and then this will probably be my next job this winter.

icesailor

You can certainly melt out the lead. I've done that many times before. Just be sure that you disconnect any and all smoke detectors or fire alarms in the house. Separate CO detectors might not be a bad idea too. As an aside, notify the fire department that there might be some smoke in the house. That old Jute/Oakum burns like hell and stinks just as bad. You might tell your sister that the smell might permeate the house for a while.

Seeing as how you are determined to try to get it out, far be for me to try to discourage you.

First of all, if it is a pipe that rises out of the trap vertically, you really have to heat it locally and splash the lead out. Heating the pipe and trap to 620 degrees or higher really makes the stink worse because you melt the asphalt on the fitting. We all know how much we like to be driving long distances behind asphalt trucks.

So, if you have a "Dremel Tool", you can buy a carbide burr grinder tip for it that sails through that like soft butter. Or as the Late Marshall Dodge of Bert & I fame once described, "Like green corn through the new maid". Start at the bottom and work up. Make three cuts so you can break it out easily.

Personally, I would cut the pipe off about 2 to 3 inches from the top of the trap, very carefully, as square as you can get it. Wind some bullet proof tape around the pipe and mark it with a magic marker. You want to cut it as straight as you can. Use a Sawzall with a 8" - 10 or 12 TPI blade. It cuts better and faster than the 18 or 22 TPI blades which clog up and get dull quickly. Then, carefully check to see if there are any cracks through the remaining pipe. If none, clamp the new PVC to the old cut off pipe.

That's how I would be doing it.

The very absolute last thing I would ever do is try to melt that lead out of the joint. Its just too nasty for words.

Another reminder. Get some sort of blow out plug to stick inside the house side of the 4" so no one flushes a blind eel on you.

And put a rag in the trap to keep debris from falling down the drain.

PS: Your BIL the plumber might learn a new trick or two.

KC_Jones

LOL yes the stink and the smoke, sounds like heat isn't the way to go....I was just going through my rolodex of experience for anything I might have. Yes i have a Dremel tool, but I like your idea of just leaving it. Perhaps I will go that route as it seems like the method with the least issues. I have a air powered cut off tool that I would probably use, it's a lot smoother to operate than a recip saw and easier to be more precise with. If it rots out more and starts leaking later on I will just have to get more aggressive, but why do more than I have to. "Leave well enough alone". Oh and my wife has flushed on me before and it wasn't pleasant. My grandfather had the experience of digging up a clogged septic and having someone flush...solids on him. Again thanks for all the input! And yes I would invite the BIL over for some learning, but he isn't that type. He knows enough to get it done and that's enough for him. I only use him on occasion because he has tools that I do not have....like the sewer snake and camera he used to open me up.

icesailor

Before you go out and get nuts with your air tools, go to Harbor Freight of any one of those El Cheapo purveyors of throw away tools that can last a life time, and get one of those rotary grinders that you can fit a 4 1/2" or 5" thin metal cutting abrasive saw blades on. I was at a discount tool store back in the early 2000's and they had these Chinese knock-off's that were the same color green as a noted Japanese brand. It cost $20.00. So, I bought 5 and gave the rest away as Christmas Gifts. It came with a carbide tipped saw blade for cutting tile. I had a switch to cut in some tile for a Steam Sauna so it paid for itself the first time Used it. You can probably buy one for less than renting one.

Your BIL sounds like a less than ambitious couch that burps.

Nice though.

KC_Jones

I already have a grinder that can take the abrasive discs, but I have the air tool and the discs that fit it. Funny it's (air tool) of a quality similar to what is carried at the wonderful Harbor Freight. It will probably be a while before I get to this job so I will have time to figure it all out and decide how to move forward. Yes the BIL's all 7 of them are generous, but I don't see eye to eye with them on craftsmanship and learning. Oh well it makes the world go round. Thanks again!

RobG

It's really not as hard as it sounds (depending on acces). Can you post a photo?

Rob

KC_Jones

Access isn't the best since it's right alone my field stone foundation. Here are a couple pics. You can see in the one were the previous owner stopped his replacement. The saddle connection is for a utility sink connection that will be getting redone when this fix is made (obviously).

RobG

Wow! It looks like there is already a crack in the trap. I would take the pipe and trap out from the Fernco to the hub. Use a service weight gasket on the hub and a No-hub coupling on the other end. They make gaskets to tie in the copper to the vent (or utility sink) to PVC with a stainless band like a No-hub. A couple whacks from a 5# hammer will break that pipe. Once you break it just use an old screwdriver to get the lead and oakum out, it's not hard at all. The hardest part is getting the PVC into the soil pipe adaptor. The key is leverage and lubrication. Any questions, let me know.

Rob

icesailor

Holy Macamoni!!!

You should have posted that long ago.

That running house trap has definitely got to go.

IMPO, do NOT let that 4" Wye going through the wall even get a whiff of a 4# mall. I became convinced years ago that the old cast iron was cast with parts of El Diablo in them and a whiff of hatred will cause then to crack open like a walnut. Then, it means that you will be digging up the wall. So, here is the final way I came up with to deal with hateful situations like that one. You're going to have to break up the concrete around the broken trap and the hub of the 4" Wye. Then, you're going to have to carefully melt the lead out if the 4" Wye joint. Don't get rambunctious. It might get hateful and crack. You can also cut slots in it with the abrasive wheel like we talked about previously. Once out and you have room, get a 4" Soil Pipe to Copper adapter. Known in the trade as a "Manoff". Sounds sexist. They come in Cast Brass or Wrought Copper. You will probably only find 4" SP X 3" Copper Tube Size. Cut the copper tube sized end off so it is all 4" Soil Pipe Size. You may need to get your BIL's the plumbers over for this part. You'll need to pour a lead and oakum joint to hold the adapter in place. Judging by the 1/8th bend (45* ell) and the casting seam the wye may be of the age before the CISPI standardized the pipe sizes. There is no way you will get a soil pipe gasket into the wye and then a piece of new pipe into it. Sort of like being bound up and needing a suppository. Then, you can clamp anything you want to the pipe. Be sure to put a 4" Dandee Cleanout facing UP so you can rod out the sewer from there.

If you've spent your life working around old cribs (and your is an old crib), you see it all and develop strategies to get around obstacles in the way.

Someone might say that it doesn't meet "Code". The regular ROTM AHJ would have you rip the whole entire plumbing system and start over from scratch. Those of us who have worked in the real world know that it's not going to happen.

Once completed, its not as difficult as it might sound. Others may have other ideas. I've tried most all of them. This one works.

KC_Jones

Is this the type of fitting you are talking about?
http://www.nibco.com/Fittings/Metal-Fittings/DWV-Fittings/Cast-Copper-DWV-Fittings/805-DWV-Soil-Pipe-Adapter-C-x-Spigot-Cast/
Have to talk to BIL and see if he even has the equipment to pour lead. He does some "old" work, but when he was at the house he never mentioned anything about lead so I am not sure about that. If he can't I may just call a couple local plumbers and ask what they would charge to do the work, not counting the concrete I can do that. I am not in panic mode right now since it doesn't leak and isn't causing any immediate problems. Not sure if I am missing something, but there aren't any cracked fittings so maybe you are seeing something in the picture that isn't there due to bad pictures or something? Thanks for all the input, when I do fix it I will be sure and post back with the results.

RobG

That isn't a crack just forward of the cleanout cover in the second picture?

KC_Jones

No there is some concrete that poured over the top of the fitting and makes it look strange in the picture. Also if you are talking about what I think you are there is a weird shadow from the hub that could possibly look like a crack. Believe me if there was a crack I would be in full blown panic mode already. Overall the fittings are in good shape inside and out.

RobG

If that's not a crack on the top of the pipe (spigot end) to the left of the cleanout cover I would just leave it alone. How is the ABS attached to the wye?

Rob

KC_Jones

Definitely not a crack that is the concrete. The bottom of the trap is buried completely in the concrete...it's pretty deep. That edge that looks like a crack is the concrete sticking up a bit. The ABS is actually a threaded connection at the wye. It isn't used for anything other than a nice straight cleanout to the street. The ABS was installed for a washer and dryer that used to be in the basement that is now capped off. I don't really want to mess with that either. My BIL had that open to snake the drain and even with the cleanout open we didn't get any water out of that because the slope keeps the sewage away from it.

RobG

Leave it alone and save you money. As a wise man once said "if it aint broke, don't fix it". In an old house like yours one fix invariably leads to another. Do you know what caused the original stoppage?

Rob

KC_Jones

LMAO...sort of. It was blocked up outside the house in the terra cotta pipe. It was a massive mound of toilet paper. We have some theories about it. First my wife tried those "flushable" wipes for the kids when they were potty training, bad idea. Let's say my plunger got a workout. Then she got a great "deal" on some of that thick quilted stuff and switched us to that. Our theory is something got caught on a joint in the terra cotta (something "flushable") and started building a TP "dam" with that quilted stuff. We now only use thin stuff and no more flushable anything. I grew up on a septic and was skeptical of some of this stuff so now I am back into full on septic attitude mode. I knew it had to be some change we made because we have been in the house for 12 years and never ever a problem then all of the sudden this.

RobG

You have to be careful with that old piping, tree roots love it, the older it gets the more susceptible it gets. It is also prone to collapse with age. Did any dirt come out with the snake? Did the snake go through the blockage easily or did you have to work at it? Has there been any heavy equipment going across the yard? You may want to start saving up for a new sewer. Hopefully it's fine but it keeps stopping up I wouldn't even pay for getting a sewer camera, I'd just replace it. If that ever happens that would be the time to replace the running trap.


Rob

KC_Jones

I am on city sewer my reference to septic was my parents house and all that my father taught me. In front of my house is sidewalk and street, no trees or yard at all. My BIL ran a camera down the pipe all the way to the main and he gave me a thumbs up on the condition of everything. The terra cotta has good joints and is clean as a whistle. The snake went through the blockage easily, but didn't clear it the first time. Like I said it was a mound of TP and he basically drilled through it with the snake and then the next day the "hole" collapsed on itself and we started over. Once he got the camera in there and saw what was going on it was easy, he actually cleared it with a combination of the camera pushing the TP and me flushing the toilet 20 times to flush water through it and eventually it all washed into the sewer.

RobG

Glad to hear it, sewer replacements aint cheap. If you had tree roots they typical get wound up around the snake and you would know it when the snake was pulled out. If it runs clear and it was cammed you should be safe.

Rob

KC_Jones

As much as I hated the situation, seeing my drain on TV was actually really cool. Gotta love technology!