Coming From the"High"Country CO...(Altitude not Attitude:-)

Derheatmeister

We have a customer that is in need of a Boiler replacement..

Currently They have a 20 year old Buderus G105 with a Carlin Burner.

The system has seen better days...Repair cost are starting to add up and the customer wants to change out the system..

We are proposing the Viessmann combi 222/35 KW ...The specs on the Installation Instructions said for installs up to 10.000 feet.. This install is @ 10300 feet and on Propane..

Our highest Install on the older Model (1st series in US) is @ 11200' on propane and after some serious adjustments it in it Burns Clean without any Problems!!.



Does anyone have any Installed B2TA (Black Controlled)series over 10000 Feet on Propane ?..

Please...As we wish not to take on a new boiler line other that the Viessmann and the Lochinvar we currently are not seeking information on all the other nice Boilers in the the Modcon world ...

Any feed back on High Altitude installs of the B2TA Series would be Greatly appreciated..

Richard.

Derheatmeister

Continental Divide

We hear that Viessmann did some High Alt. testing in the Leadville area..

We are jumping back and forth over the Continental Divide at and Above the Treeline in the South Park..Breckenridge/Blue River/ and Aspen levels..

Since it is not just the high alt but also combustion contaminants from pollen/Dusty Roads and bad Gas we would love to be the ones picking for information this time..

At least this one has an Oxygen barrier..:-)

icesailor

Stupid Thoughts:

Here's a stupid thought. Why don't "they" come up with a way to "boost" inlet air like they do with turbocharging on engines? It doesn't take much of a boost to get the altitude down to sea level. And there's all that extra nitrogen and oxygen available when you compress it.

Just wondering.

I mean, if you take a fan jet engine like on a Boeing 777, and take pressurized air from the compressor area behind the fan and before it goes into the burn chamber, you have as much as 700 PSIG of hot compressed air which they use to heat the aircraft and let the hot expanded air keep the cabin pressure at an equivalent of 8,000'. When they are flying at 35,000'. They take the available atmospheric air at 35,000' and compress it enough to supply air/oxygen to properly burn fuel to its maximum efficiency.  Who knew?

Why not?

Mark Eatherton

They do Chris...

Deration factor for an atmospheric gas fired appliance is 4% per 1000 feet above sea level. With a sealed combustion modcon boiler, the derate factor drops to 2% per 1000 fee ASL. Essentially turbo charged within constraints of safe combustion.



ME

icesailor

Derating:

Interesting. As I see it, that boiler install in CO at 10,000+' if using pressurized air intake, could have sea level performance. Computer driven combustion like automobiles.

I understood about super charging/turbocharging in internal combustion engines, and how diesels have compressed air into the cylinder and at maximum compression and heat, the fuel is introduced, it ignites.

I understand about compressing and decompressing liquids. I was never able to relate it to aircraft decompression at high altitude. I've sat in my seat while flight attendants give their speak about the oxygen masks dropping down and to put yours on first before helping anyone else. They don't explain why. If they knew, they wouldn't fly. If they tried to explain it, it would be a "Huh?" moment.

Here's one for you. Those people that are always trying to prove something by climbing Mt. Everest, above 24,000', it is the Foolish or Dead Zone. Foolish because if you spend too much time there, you will die sooner or later. But they have to eat. They use those little propane stoves in the tents. They heat water for tea but the atmospheric pressure is so low that you can't get the water hot enough to make tea. It boils away. Or heat food high enough to make the chemical change to get the vitamins out of the food. If you filled up a 1 cubic foot balloon with air at 24,000' and brought it down to 10,000', the balloon would be flat. What happens to CO when you burn gas at 24,000' in a tent, to heat water. Do those dudes get CO poisoning at those high altitudes?

If passengers in a Boeing 777 have cabin pressures of 8,000' and because of some unknown reason, the ECU stops working, and the aircraft is at 35,000', how long does the pressure stay at 8,000' and if the pressure drops, do the pressurized gasses in the body expand? Does it mean that the lungs lose the volume to use the available air?

Like happens when a diver comes up to the surface from 300' down or in a heating system where the hot water goes from 15" to zero at the top of the system and dissolved gasses start to form in the lack of negative pressures. .

When I figured out how they pressurize aircraft at altitude, I started to wonder. Why can't you do the same with a computer run Mod/Con boiler. The next phase?

SWEI

Technically, you could

but I suspect a high altitude fan would be required -- something akin to shoehorning a 399 fan into a 100-150k boiler.  The result would be significant positive pressure in the manifold, which might impact other aspects of the design.  JMO.

Zman

Huh?

Chris,

What in the world are you talking about?

The difference in pressure between  sea level and 10,000 feet (where I am sitting right now) is a little less than 5 PSI. If a diver goes down 33 feet underwater they have doubled the atmospheric pressure.



As you go to higher altitudes combustion generally works just fine. You just have to change the air/fuel mixture and derate the appliance, as Mark pointed out.



What Richard is trying to figure out is whether a specific boiler has been proven at a higher altitude than the manufacture specs. I honestly don't know but understand where he is heading. Some mod/cons take on some weird characteristics when the air gets to thin.They get strange harmonic hums and cannot be tuned for peak efficiency. You really don't want to be the first guy to try and figure out the maximum operating altitude of a new product.



As a side note, the climbers at 18k feet cook food just fine. The water boils just fine, it is just at a much lower temp and it takes the food longer to cook.The burner also produces less BTU's than it does at sea level. I have never heard that if you don't heat the food enough, the vitamins won't come out. What temp do you cook you salads at?



As for the plane depressurizing, I think the people would be screaming hard enough so that the the lungs would not buld pressure and rupture.



Richard,

I wonder if Carol Fey at Viessmann would be of any help. I would think she has a solid understanding of altitude.If tests were done in Leadville she may be able to access them.



Carl

Derheatmeister

High Alpine Environment.

As you go above the 10 000 Feet Level in this High Alpine Environment there are other impacts than just adjusting the Air to fuel mixture.



The Air to fuel Mix is generally Adjusted via the Ventury /Fan speed / Orifice or a combination thereof depending on design ..Yes sometimes they start to give us Harmonic Sounds on the low fire range..

This sound is generally present with the Down fire/ HX in the Bucket type of Boiler i.e. TT prestige.. It is very Frustrating when you have a combustion analyzer hooked up to the patient and you have to take it "Out of Specs" so that your customers can sleep at night..



Another Impact beside the Fuel Mix is Snow:

Due to our sometimes very nice Sking conditions we get Super dry "Powder Dumps", In fact as i am typing this we just are being blessed with approx. 5" of Fresh Pow which i will be tearing up in a couple Hours.

If you decide to side wall vent a boiler you can be faced with the very dry Powder being blown/Sucked into the Combustion air intake...

Once the Dry Power Snow is in the Boiler it turns into "Rain" ...

Water with all the Electronics i.e. Draft inducer and the "CPU"control do not like this..

Ever drive your car in a Dry Powder Snow Storm?...Same thing, the outside air that is entering the Vehicle at the windshield starts to Rain on the Occupants.. Again TT and Loch Type of Boiler..

Dust/ Pollen/Bugs and bees: During certain times of the Year we get these very high pollen levels, some years are stronger that others..

It becomes some times so heavy that you can see it just pouring off of the Trees..

This and Some of the dust from our Dirt Roads become Combustion Contaminants.

Some times it Clogs the HX...Sometimes the Sensing Rods need more frequent cleaning....Not sure how the Lam. Pro likes this?

As for the Bugs: I think it has something to do with the additives that they put into the Gas that attracts them...Not sure... Another contractor down on the Front range pulled buckets of them out of a Viessmann..Good thing that they settled in the bottom of the boiler before getting sucked into the Fan..



Voltage Fluctuations: For some strange reason we have to deal with Power outages and very heavy voltage fluctuations..... some of the Electronics do not like this and "Burn Out" Sucks having to change out Boards on new Boilers..Most Manufactures have addressed this issue..Some very nice Homes have frozen solid because of this!!



Water Quality: Not all but most of our Homes above 10 000 feet have a Well..Not the Boiler Manufactures concern,But just another thing to pay attention to..



If a prior installer wanted to throw another curved Ball into this equation he did a Plate less Staple up of 14000 ' 3/8 PB tubing in a 14 000 sgft Mountain home with 30' Ceilings and all Glass views of the Mountains.. and all this with 180 F Iron contaminated system Fluid...

Welcome to the Mountains!

icesailor

High Altitudes:

You might be a little short in the high altitude physics department. And I wasn't trying to re-design a boiler. ME confirmed what I was asking. That at 5,000', you derate a burner by 4% but if it is a fan assisted boiler/burner like a Mod-Con, you de-rate it by 2%. Where did the other 2% go? Why it went by way of the fan pressurization. That 2% came from the fan compressing air so that the burner had the equivalent air of a lower altitude. 5 PSI of air isn't squat. A cubic foot of 5# air occupies a space at 5,000'. A cubic foot of air at 5.000' will be less at less as you go down to sea level. The pressure stays the same if it is confined. It gets compressed into a smaller space if it is open.

Normally aspirated (un-blown or supercharged) engines in aircraft have a ceiling height based on how much air the engine can take in. The "thinner" air has less resistance, but there is a limit to how high the plane can go. Add supercharging or turbocharging (where hi velocity exhaust gas spins an air compressor turbine) increases the available amount of air/oxygen. You need atmospheric air because the ratios of 80% nitrogen and 20% oxygen stay the same. The nitrogen cools the combustion process. Normally aspirated engines are efficient up to around 7,000' to 10,000'. Turbocharged engines are efficient to up to 15,000'. Pilots need oxygen above 10,000' to keep sharp. Gas turbine propeller driven aircraft operate well and efficient between 7,000' and 25.000'because the compressor compresses vast amounts of air to mix with the fuel, spinning the propeller. The limiting factor is the ability of the prop to be efficient in such thin air. Jet powered aircraft fly higher (like a Boeing 777) because their engines collect VAST amounts of available air and compress it in such huge volumes that the engine develops enough thrust to propel it through the extremely thin air at 35,000'. Consider the SR-71 BlackBird spy plane. It flew at over 2,000 MPH at over 100,000'. The air is so thin but provides less resistance. But the engines could collect and compress enough air to make the plane go that fast.

If you are a diver on the surface, you set your regulator to whatever atmosphere you need to breath. As you dive down, doesn't the regulator automatically adjust the air pressure in the system as the compressed air in the tank drops? So as to not blow out your lungs when you rise and suffocate you when you are going down? Aren't the dissolved gasses in your body compressed into liquid, especially nitrogen? And if you rise too rapidly, don't gas bubbles form that need to be reabsorbed by the body?

All I was asking was that if the guy who was asking about his gas Mod/Con boiler had an issue of output at 10,000' altitude and because of the lesser air pressure/volume, how to accurately de-rate the boiler so you could add for the loss of atmospheric pressure and available oxygen in the expanded air, I asked why not some form of air compression? ME answered that a Mod/Con can get a 50% to a 100% increase (depending on how you do the percentage question) from the burner blower motor.

I only asked the question. I think now that it can and is being used and thought out. It seems to me that a Mod/Con at high altitude could be made to perform like it was at sea level with computer driven variable speed fan motors and pressure adjusted gas inlet. Maybe you have to do it with liquid LPG. Gasoline cabin heaters in piston powered aircraft seem to be able to vaporize gasoline without blowing the front of the plane off, why not a Mod/Con.

50 years ago, if anyone suggested a Modulating, condensing gas boiler, someone would be making arrangements to send them to an institution somewhere. How far we have come.

icesailor

Constricted, restricted air:

I understand what you are saying. There's a solution to that.

Way back when, when I started out, the old dead guy I worked for had me working in the local power plant, powered by slow speed high HP diesels. All were similar in design; The last one I worked on the installation was a 7,700 HP V-20 325 RPM engine with 30" intake and 30" exhaust that went through the end of the building. The intake had an oil bath air filter that the intake faced down with a wide screen to keep birds and animals from getting sucked in. However, on the inside intake pipe, were cut long rectangular slots, at least 4" wide and 3' long. It was covered with multiple wraps of canvas cloth. It stayed in place by the engine suction. The idea was that if they had the right kind of snow, it could get sucked up and into the filter, If the engine started losing power from the intake blockage, the maintenance guy on duty only had to run up and remove the canvas cloth giving the engine more air until the snow storm stopped. On that particular engine, the European manufacturers of slow speed stationary diesels had decided that with the really high BMEP's that these engines were developing, they needed to go to a 2 alloy, 2 piece piston because of unequal expansion under high engine loads. But the manufacturer of this engine had made a command decision to improve on the design of the one piece piston. It didn't work. The piston could swell up and jamb in the bore, with the bottom half of the piston separating from the top. Not a good thing. They use lube oil sprayed on to the bottom of the piston to help keep it cool. These engines all use B&A (Before and after) pumps to lube the engine and keep it warm before it starts and to run after to help remove hot spots in the engine after shut down. Automatic emergency shut down included the B&A pumps to continue to run.

WELL, wouldn't you  just know that that rule of unintended consequences just slapped them upside the head? One day, a connecting rod ripped itself from the top of the piston that stuck in the bore. Bent the valves just like breaking a timing belt on a car today. That hot lube oil that was sprayed out of the top of the connecting rod just kept on spraying, and as the engine slowed down, it just took that sprayed oil and sent it down the intake valve passages and shared it with other working cylinders. Which of course FIRED. The engine slowed to about 20 RPM's and just wouldn't stop. Pulling the fuel racks closed didn't do it. Closing the fuel supply didn't do it. WAIT!!! Take every CO2 fire extinguisher in the building, take that canvas sheet off the intake and let that CO2 go. When there was no more oxygen for the engine to breath and only CO2, the engine finally stopped. It happened more than once.

Turbochargers have "waste gates" to deal with excessive pressures. Automobiles have pollution devices installed. They have to operate for 60,000 to 100,00 miles by regulations. All computer controlled. Most cars go forever without replacement of the pollution system. It shouldn't be complicated to further adapt these systems to the reliability of automobiles. They also have power fixing controls. Where I worked, most of the 1%'ers there had stand-by generators to protect their 7,000 sq ft summer cottages. If the power got funky, the generator would run. Filtered air is a wonderful thing. Anyone that can afford to build a remote hacienda at 10,000', isn't eating breakfast at Taco Bell and having a beer regularly at the local tap. They can afford to buy something to keep their nest from getting cold. Propane is a wonderful thing except when it gets too cold to vaporize. That's when dual fuel becomes an even more attractive thing. Oil still has a place.

I tell the story of the engine because it is not something new. There are solutions. That happened over 40 years ago. Things like the generator stopping are a thing of the past. They ran a couple of buried extension cords to provide power. In the current storm, they are without power. There are a lot of generators running on $6.00+ per gallon propane..

Derheatmeister

Jaa.....Air quality..

Cool story..

Was this a Co gen Plant ?

Yes i have "Toyed" with Intake Air filtering Systems.. One Must be careful though, additional Problems can be Created if one Starves the Appliance... .As you said the Filter needs to be Maintained depending on the Particulars that it is subjected to..

One thing to make it a better system is to install a Delta P type switch with a Fault output..

Notifications of a Fault/Service requirement shall take place via Emails or Text...

Weezbo

havent seen Der heatmister in a while : )

i sorta like where Icesailors coming from on this one , the thing i think is somewhat a limiting factor is the physical dimensions an the added materials and types of materials that go into the designe when chasing higher performance .



Consider when we saw that first wood gasification boiler with all the certs and ratings ... that boiler looked vaguely something out of Star Trek and associated with Vulcan Technology .

the size of the unit more resembled an industrial incinerator , than a cookie tin box , pinned to a wall with a couple uni-strut bolts.



i like to read and study and often spend countless hours doing so, the engineering sites have all manner of interesting reads .



i think crafting the place where the , i will call them shock waves for now , present themselves is what i think dissuades looking for a residential size boiler application of the turbo charging preheat and compression re injection like one would see in turbo jet engines . the really fast flying test vehicles we have now are an interesting read ,

most are experimental run to destruction type experiments of somewhat limited duration .

So i consider

"Welcome to the Mountains " to pretty much sum up the joys of our work at high altitudes ...

*~//: )

Good to see that our thoughts are shared and the experiences and information still roll on here at The Wall.



In Flight Shut down is something i think comes into play from time to time on various engines and i think that is the minor technicality thats some what another side of things when it comes to combustion ,

within thoughts on the designs of the adaptations to a residential boiler..

i reason it this way it might give rise to a "Hoe Nuffa Laval" when one says "More Bang for the Buck."

icesailor

Whoa:

Woa, Slow down, you'll make the morning go too fast.



When you can take your soot vac and connect it to an oil tank and create enough vacuum to keep it from leaking, the small amount of pressurized air to add to the combustion may not be more than a good sneeze. I fired oil burners into positive pressure chambers on a regular basis. A wide open turbocharged Lycoming engine has a 6# maximum boost to  burn 100# of Blue Gas per hour or more. I'm talking an air pump that adds enough excess air to burn 1 gallon or less of LPG. 6#? You need 5# to equal MSL?

I'm not trying to design it. I'll never see it. I just thought it an interesting solution for the guy who was asking about how to size his boiler for 10,000+' with the lower atmospheric pressures.

And if I happened to think of it, that usually means that within the next year or so, Veissmann will introduce it. Some hot rod here could design it. That's how the two speed rear ends came about for big rig trucks. As I see it.

Derheatmeister

Weezbo

Hello Weezbo...Yeah it's been a while.. I have been Busy here in Colorado..

Once a Wallie..Allways a Wallie..

What does it stand for:" Hoe Nuffa Laval" .....No say nadda?

icesailor

AND (High Altitude):

No part of my thoughts apply to a boiler/burner at sea level. If you need more power, get a bigger boiler. Turning it into a Hot Rod Boiler at MSL is stupid.

However, if (for simplicity) a 100,000 rated boiler at MSL only delivers 90,000 BTU's at 10,000', the only way to get the 10% back is a bigger boiler. If the air intake can be pressurized so that the incoming air is equal to sea level, doesn't that make it a 100,000 BTU boiler? You have to adjust the incoming gas pressure, that's what digital analyzers and digital manometers are for. If you want big turndowns, you don't get a better turn down with a bigger boiler based on a turn down ratio. Or so it would seem.

It was just a concept idea, nothing else. You can only do it with sealed combustion boilers. If the HX is rated for 100,000 BTU's at MSL, it is still rated for 100,000 BTU's at 10,000'. If a Viessmann WB200 can adjust down to 3" or less, it should be able to adjust to a computer driven adjustment to gas pressure and fan speed to keep a correct air fuel ratio. I would think. Maybe I'm stupid wrong.

Derheatmeister

Turbo Munchkin...Your thoughts Apply

I guess it would be the same as with inducing Oxygen into the equation when no more Oxygen is available...As in out of space....One must be Careful when playing with Oxygen...Maybe that is why none of the Manufactures do it ?

No not stupid wrong....Same as driving a regular None Turbo Diesel at this Attitude...

Only Turbo Diesel will get you moving without the Black Smoke( as in Carbon).....

The Hot rod Idea is good... Maybe just like Turbo ..the Waste drives the Positive pressure side for the Combustion...Come to think about it , I have a turbo from a Isuzu that I made a 1.200000 BTU emergency Heating trailer from i think that i will Adapt this to a Old Munchkin ,Rocket 50 GPM thru the HX and see what happens with the IR camera.... I shall post a Youtube of the Thermal camera Image as the HX has a melt down or maybe not if i keep the Fluid moving Fast enough ....

I think that Mark E shall stand back and watch this Experiment...Sounds like Fun..Turbo Munchkin it is....

SWEI

Video, please

visions of Dave Barry http://www.davebarry.com/misccol/charcoal.htm

Mark Eatherton

I wanna see...

All.the pumps piped in series to push the 50 guppies per minute through the Munchy HXer. Actually, the friction of the water and the heat of cavitation from the pumps will generate enough heat for the water that you can use the HXer as an air heater :-)



Let me know when you want to do it. Could probably sell tickets for this...



Maybe we can talk Grundfos into a sponsorship if we let them "donate" the pump to the cause. We'll give them filming rights :-) we'll use your welder/generator to power all this equipment up.



We can overcome that lack of btu content of gas at this altitude by dumping liquid LP into the carbonator.



Call me. I'm in Heeney.



ME

icesailor

Laugh:

Laugh.

90+ warm air direct vent furnaces I have worked on have the cold inlet connected directly to the blower. They do NOT use the inside of the case/cabinet as part of the air intake system. Munchkins and Veissmann's just have the intake air stuck into the cabinet. The intake isn't connected to the intake fan in any way.

I had two 90+ furnaces that were improperly installed. The venting was wrong. Bushes planted in front of them and they regurgitated. The fresh air intake went through the side of the cabinet and connected directly on the end of the blower assembly with a big rubber coupling and clamps. When the secondary heat exchanger was plugged and it was pumping out over 1,000 PPM of CO, I pulled the fresh air inlet out of the blower and it dropped to 600 PPM CO. I disconnected the furnace(s) and condemned then as un-repairable. Someone else came along and reconnected them. I was called back because they weren't working. No Ship.

I'm not talking about a Veissmann with the standard blower set up. Direct connected. Pressure switches and such.

You said that there was a 4% loss in output with altitude but only 2% with sealed combustion, direct vent appliances. The only reason it gained the 2% is through forced air combustion. If you can gain 2%, why not 4%?

You're not thinking outside the box. Maybe that's part of the reason that airheads are eating the lunches of wetheads.

In the 1940's,1950's, over the road truckers could hardly get over the Rocky Mountains because of a lack of power from normally aspirated diesels at high altitudes. Freightliner came along with Turbocharged Diesels that could pack more available air into a cylinder and pump more fuel into the cylinder for a increase in power. They ate everyone's lunch. Aircraft did it with supercharging. It increased the service ceiling because there was more usable air through compression. Gas turbines and Fan Jets carried it to the current heights

This bothers me. In New England commercial offshore fishing, they fish in up to 100 fathoms deep (600') for fish. Fish have a swim bladder. They fill it with "air" and use it to keep bouancy. The deeper the fish, the more they have to compress the air in the bladder to stay where they want to be. Someone comes along with a great big Otter Trawl and scoops up the fish. The ones that they want and can keep, and the ones they don't want and can't keep because they are restricted or undersize. The trip from 600' down to the surface ruptures the swim bladder because it expands and ruptures because of the drop/change in water pressure. They are dead or dying when they get to the surface. They are gasping for air. They get thrown overboard to die and be eaten by waiting predators. And they wonder why the fish are overfished and disappearing. The suffocate like a sealed combustion gas burner because there is a limit to what the blower can inhale and pressurize. Aircraft and diesel trucks figured it out long ago. The Boost isn't all that high.

You think I give a bowl movement? I've spent my life working at sea level. I don't have a problem. We're supposed to be problem solvers. I'll bet that they are doing it in Europe for high altitude places. There's a lot of mountains in Europe.

Whenever I am flying at 35,000', I know how the air I breath works. I didn't before. I doubt that you all do. If you did, you'd see the applications.

A water pump is just an air pump, pumping a different medium.

icesailor

Air & Water:

Speaking of air and water, how does a Hydraulic Ram work pumping water?

Mark Eatherton

Kinetic energy...

And it too has it's limitations, is wasteful and quite noisy.



Google it. Look for a video.



ME

Mark Eatherton

Hoe nuffa larval =

Whole nother level in Weesbo speak...



ME

icesailor

Working:

I know how it works. It was a Journeymans practical test question when I took my Journeymans license test in 1967.

I figured that YOU would know, but many others wouldn't have a clue what it was or how it worked.

Compressing and decompressing air caused by flowing water, starting and stopping with a syphon.

Wasteful. Noisy too.

I once saw one in an old barn. The owner didn't know what it was or what it might be used for. Might have been used with wooden water pipe. That's old.

icesailor

Who said/Oxygen:

"" "I guess it would be the same as with inducing Oxygen into the equation when no more Oxygen is available...As in out of space.... " ""

Who said anything about unavailable oxygen? NOT ME!!!

If you are a scuba diver, you compress air into a cylinder to the tune of 2500# PSIG. The oxygen.nitrogen are still there in the same ratios as before it was compressed. If allowed to expand to 0 # PSIG, the same nitrogen to oxygen ratio is still there. It didn't change. Just the occupied space. The clean air that you breath at the beach at Montauk, NY has the same air as at the winter cottage at 10,000 in CO, just less of it because of the expansion of the air from the higher altitude. Take that same cubic foot volume if air in a balloon at Montauk , NY and put it at 100' below the surface and see how big it is. It still has the same expanded or contracted nitrogen (80%)/oxygen (20%) ratio. Just in a smaller space.

High pressure tries to equalize lower pressures. That Rocky Mountain High isn't from communal pot smoking, its from the sun beating down and heating the earth and trees in the mountains (or wherever) and rising up in toward the stratosphere. Line fine dry sand or dry powder snow. Push it into a pile and the sides want to run down. The higher the pile, the harder and faster the snow or sand fall down the sides of the pile. The air in that Rocky Mountain High falls down to the surface because it is warmer and the bottom is cooler, causing wind. The air at a thunderhead at 40,000' still has the same ratio of nitrogen/oxygen. As it falls, making tornados on the plain, blowing up Oklahoma, the ratio is still the same. All gasses have a weight in relation to water. Specific gravity. Measured at sea level. Is it the same at altitude, uncompressed at 35,000'? I'm not sure, but the gasses all have a weighted valve. Like a big blanky covering the earth, allowing us to be warm and live. Like sleeping in a bed, covered up. If you put three blankets on a bed, it feels like 3 blankets on you. Take away one, there are 2. take then all away. There's nothing. A spacecraft whipping around in space where there is no atmosphere whatsoever, because gravity has pulled what is available to earth, has no resistance to the space craft. The resistance comes from the air. In the same ratio of air to nitrogen as at the surface.

Have you given any thought to those oxygen recovery/accumulators that they use for smokers with COPD or lung cancer? They take common air in the room and compress it. Then, scrub the oxygen out and mix it back with the nitrogen to breath at a higher oxygen ratio than the normal air. Same air that you breath when sitting next to a suffer of COPD.



Maybe I am a really dumb cluck and mis-understood the science I learned in public schools. Maybe I came along too late for Charter Schools where you learn complicated stupid things in a complicated way. My 7th grade science teacher DID have a PHD in Biology and applied science. I wasn't the best student, but I learned things. More than my grown children did because after their science teachers got done explaining things to them and they didn't understand it, they asked me and no teacher ever told them I was wrong.

Derheatmeister

Intercooler?

I am guessing that i shall install the Inter cooler for a added efficiency??

Not sure if i shall use wood gasification to drive everything....

Or as ME suggested starting with LP gas first... Then i can switch to Wood gasification

I May want to use my time positively vs watching a Munchkin melt down..Although that sounds like fun...

Maybe an old 119 gallon Waterheater ..Make it a Down fire type to get it started ?

Load wood in middle section..Take hopefully very minimum amount of ash out of the Bottom? Work on automation later (Snake Drive Chip Load / Shaker for Ash/Produce its own electricity to drive the Controls/Shaker/Snake Drives/Pumps/ Use Low voltage low energy Consuming DC Circs/ Drives)..Would be very cool to be Able to use some of the Captured gas use a Special compressor($$$$) And use it to drive a car/ Truck Kinda like they did in Europe after the war..Just imagine pulling up to the Customers house to do an estimate in a car driving on Gas made from our Local Beetle Kill ..... I think that i have got all the Parts and tools for this project ...I hear that with a little altercations Used surplus Amo Boxes make a good filtering system for the Gas..

May be time for a new post since this has nothing to do with the Original High Alt Post..Any ideas ?

Derheatmeister

Oxygen..

Not you ....I said using "Compressed" Oxygen instead of bringing it up to the same level using a "Blower" type design to achieve the same density/ Ratio it as to 1013 Mbar ...(sea level)...

Again Compressed Oxygen as you know is very dangerous and i answered my own question as to why the Manufacturer do not use it..Or do they? Maybe you have seen this?

Respect...Richard...

Derheatmeister

Cannot Post

Sorry Will not allow me to Post..Will try later..

icesailor

COmpressed Oxygen/Compressed AIR:

Maybe the powers above don't want this string to continue.

I never said a single thing about compressed OXYGEN!!!. I was ONLY talking about compressed Air. LIGHTLY compressed air.

If a pilot flies an aircraft from Topeka Kansas to Denver Colorado, doesn't he set his altimeter to the barometric pressure in Topeka, and when he gets to Denver, he is informed of the barometric pressure, the wind speed and direction and visibility? The barometric pressure so that if the barometric pressure is 30.1" in Kansas and 29.7" in Denver, his altimeter will read properly for his elevation above the ground? Especially in IMC's so he doesn't make a "Jong John down the runway or land in the grass doing a Shorty?

Is there a difference between compressed air and compressed oxygen?

Aren't we using compressed air in a power burner to raise the air pressure above atmospheric pressure to get more available air to burn the fuel?

You ARE aware of the function on Nitrogen in closed combustion like engines and oil and gas burners. To cool the flame and not allowing the Oxygen to go nuts and melt the cylinder or chamber. Oxygen is the oxidizer, Nitrogen is the radiator.

I think that the question has been answered. Increasing the fan/air pressure at higher altitudes on stationary equipment will make the equipment behave like it is at seal level. You just have to know what you are doing to adjust it properly. There are a lot of high altitude places in Europe. Especially in Germany. They don't go to the next size boiler when close because it is installed at 10,000'. No one asked them so no one replied.

Derheatmeister

Oxygen Machine..

>>>>>> Your Post: Have you given any thought to those oxygen recovery/accumulators that they use for smokers with COPD or lung cancer?>Your post: There are a lot of high altitude places in Europe. Especially in Germany

Derheatmeister

Oxygen Machine..

>>>>>> Your Post: Have you given any thought to those oxygen recovery/accumulators that they use for smokers with COPD or lung cancer?>Your post: There are a lot of high altitude places in Europe. Especially in Germany

icesailor

?

A lot of thought went into my comments. Which are you asking about and what's your point?

icesailor

More ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_concentrator

Starts with AIR, makes Oxygen, Scrubs Nitrogen. Not what I'm talking about. Compressed AIR.

You know, you're right. It can't be done. Stupid me for even suggesting it. Suggesting that there might possibly be a way to get enough AIR at high high altitude to make something like a sealed combustion gas boiler at 10,000' act like it was at sea level.

And airplanes don't fly at high altitude with kerosene burning engines using compressed air for an oxidizer. Like a SR71 Blackbird at 0ver 100,000' and over 2,000 MPH.  That same aircraft is incapable of flying at 10,000 because of a lack of oxygen.

Derheatmeister

could not post yesterday,,,

For some reason my post are hacked off and did not contain the full post so here we go ..i will try this for about the 7 time

>>>>>> Your Post: Have you given any thought to those oxygen recovery/accumulators that they use for smokers with COPD or lung cancer?>Your post: There are a lot of high altitude places in Europe. Especially in Germany

Derheatmeister

So Sorry ...

Again...

SWEI

Forum eats postings

With the pointy brackets in them.  Anything to the right of a left-pointy will evaporate.  Took me about five posts one night to figure out what was happening.  Squiggly brackets and square brackets don't seem to have this issue.

Mark Eatherton

Also...

Try emptying out your Cookies Memory cache, and then turn your cookies OFF.



ME

Zman

Browser/operating system

Richard,

What system are you on? You might try another browser.

I will sometimes copy my text an bigger posts in case the system malfunctions.

I am interested in your thoughts on this one....

Carl

Derheatmeister

Oxygen Machine..

Your Post>>>>Have you given any thought to those oxygen recovery/accumulators that they use for smokers with COPD or lung cancer?>Your post: There are a lot of high altitude places in Europe. Especially in Germany

Derheatmeister

Oxygen Machine..

Your Post>>>>Have you given any thought to those oxygen recovery/accumulators that they use for smokers with COPD or lung cancer?>Your post: There are a lot of high altitude places in Europe. Especially in Germany

icesailor

Cookies:

Because of my Type 2 diabetes, I don't do cookies.

I figured that you can play with quotation marks.

Some symbols go back to DOS commands and will make UNIX and some other operating systems lose their collective minds.

Or so I have figured out.  These things " < " and these things " > " will cause untold grief. Along with forward slashes and back slashes. It seems that any forbidden symbol under DOS will cause some browsers to loose their collective minds.

And maybe this won't post because I have violated some unknown rule of applications.

Derheatmeister

>>>

I Will try with out These.