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Coming From the"High"Country CO...(Altitude not Attitude:-)

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Comments

  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,524
    Oxygen Generators

    Your Post:Have you given any thought to those oxygen recovery/accumulators that they use for smokers with COPD or lung cancer?



    Not sure how safe this is?

    Bottled in conjunction with a LP gas delivery was my first thoughts...Bottles can be very Dangerous and impracticable....Just accidentally throw a little Oil into the equation and you have a huge explosion!!...A Oxygen bottling Plant in Germany had a Huge explosion/ Melt down because of this...

    I see these Oxygen "Generators" up here in the High country all of the time,Most of the time it is used for Elderly/New borns and people that get High Altitude sickness..

    I hear it also helps with Hang overs...

    Besides"Coffee Houses" we also have prescription Free Oxygen Bars for the Altitude effected visitors..On my next ride thru Breckenridge i shall pick them on how they are doing this for the rooms/Bar area..

    Most likely this "Machine" may work ..Just if it is worth the Hassle is the other Question?

    I think maybe the "Generators" for Humans may not produce to much Oxygen?

    So i guess depending on Size of Boiler and elevation a Injection type of may work..

    Maybe time to price them out..May be Expensive since most of the Elders that i see do not own it...Then again maybe the Insurance is picking up that expense..



    Your post: There are a lot of high altitude places in Europe. Especially in Germany.



    Growing up in Germany and Revisiting it on regular intervals for different Solar and heating/ Alternative Energy events and talking to the different Manufacturers Europa does not have any installs at 3000 Meter which is about the elevation that we are talking about...Maybe that is why they look to us for "some" feed back..

    I wonder if " Combustion Tim" knows the Answers to these Questions?
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Those things:

    I think that the program doesn't recognize those symbols as legitimate. When you put " "" >>> "" " in a Post Tittle, topic, it might post the topic but it doesn't recognize it as a legal topic or word. When you bracket something with a " "" < "" " and a " "" > "" ", in a posting, it thinks it is a hot link and looks to see if it is a legal place or site. If it can't find the legal place, it dumps the posting.

    Or it seems to me.
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,524
    Thanks..

    As you suggested I was able to respond back to you "Oxygen Generator" without the symbols. Why can you post them in your suggestion?
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    No Oxygen: Missing Aircraft:

    Again, I've said that I'm not talking about Oxygen and concentrated oxygen, just slightly compressed air. Enough compressed air to equal sea level at 10,000' or 3,000 meters, pick one.

    In 1976, I bought a new Ford F-150 pick-up with a 351 "M".Motor. I bought in coastal Massachusetts. Had I bought it in Denver, it would have bees set up for "high altitude" driving. Like Denver. The gas mileage sucked. There was no way of knowing what you bought. If you came down to Massachusetts and bought my truck, it would have run like suck in Denver and have needed adjustments by the dealer (high altitude kit). The same truck bought in Denver would have run fine, maybe too lean, better gas mileage, shorter engine life. Today, my 2001 BMW 325XI wagon doesn't care where I drive it because the onboard computer constantly adjusts the fuel system with info from oxygen sensors. It even has the ability to tell whether you are using high octane fuel or "regular" grade and adjust the settings in the brain.

    I think that it is already being done with sealed combustion and variable speed fan motors, You just didn't realize that it was done.

    Mark Etherton said that there is a 2% pick-up in input with sealed combustion. It has to be because of the variable fan speed. If 2%, why not 4%. With a modulating gas and fan speeds, anything is possible. I'm not talking 4 meters in altitude, just 2 to 3. They're already set up for Seal Level where most of us work.

    Another stunning bit of useless information from CM, I've been saying for over a week on Boards that they will never find wreckage from the Boeing 777 that is missing because of trash in the ocean where it went missing. It is lost in a "Gyre" however that is defined. Some prognosticator this afternoon was commenting on the stuff they keep finding that they can't find after it is first spotted or its nothing. The area that they are searching has floating trash to the tune of 43,000+ pieces of trash and debris PER SQUARE MILE!!!!.  And I complain about taking out the trash.

    Hopefully, no trash at 3,000 meters.
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,524
    edited March 2014
    Lambda Pro

    YES...This very discussion is about this...A Combustion Management system..

    Sorry i did not clarify this :The new Viessman Vitoden 200 B2HA Series is using this technology just like your BMW does ...I think that Porsche was the first to use this...Pretty cool stuff..

    It is using the Ionization Rods(Flame sensing rod) to measure the Combustion which is a relationship between the CO2 or O2 content and a Air factor.. So that a optimum combustion is always achieved the system checks the values and also self calibrates itself..

    However: even after talking to Viessmann today about this they are not aware of any Higher that 10 000 feet installs which makes me feel a little Nervous..My highest install is at 11 200 feet also on propane with the Older model that has a "Carburetor" compared to this newer version.. The newer version does Not have much of a adjustability and Viessmann tested this at 10 000 feet not at 11 000 feet ... That extra 1000 feet can make a very big impact when i am faced with it...Maybe it is time to take my show room Trailer (which has this model installed) and a Analyzer for a 11 000 feet field trip.. :-)
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Cauion...

    The Lambda pro that I worked on when they were brand new may be good for minor adjustments, but it does NOT monitor the production of CO, and in my case, it was WAY too high.



    By the way, the oxygen sensors used in the Lambda come from Bosch, Viessmanns major German competitor :-)



    Just sayin'… :-)



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,524
    CO2

    It monitors the CO2 via the Rods not a "Oxygen sensor".. It is using a Current traveling thru the rods like a flame rectification process.. Even when deposits form on the rods it must calibrate its self .As far as i understood it does this on every start up and even while it is firing..

    What happens is that it will temporary go way out of specs to find the borders.. That is why you are getting these high results on start up..Makes you want to pull your analyzer out while it is doing this! I do...
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    #200 Veissmann's:

    back earlier or on another thread, I mentioned going to Veissmann school in RI for those boilers. I remember the discussion about the 200's ability to adjust to lowering gas main pressures. That efficiency would stay the same until some number (.04"?) where the efficiency would no longer be adjusted but the flame would remain.

    If the CO goes up, I thought that it was a symptom of either too much air or too little. Sounds like too little. More air at 3 meters? If atmospheric pressure affects the gas valve operation, an increase in gas pressure? I'm just curious.
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,524
    Flue Gas Adaptation

    If that was the earlier model that i think that it may have had the Flue gas adaptation feature.. That was a good Boiler..
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    All great ideas, but...

    There's this thing called flame stability, and if negatively affected, will negatively affect everything downstream of that process.



    Trust, me, I have absolutely NO doubt these manufacturers are trying their best to overcome mother nature, and things like air and fuel density, flame efficiency and more. And to their credit, with all these fancy new burner assemblies, they have made HUGE strides in combustion technology, but there are limitations. If you force too much air into a radial tube burner, the flame will eventually lift off of the face, and bad things happen after that. This is why Lochinvar has an agreement with a hotel in Leadville Colorado that allows them to pull into the parking lot, latch onto the hotels gas and water, and fire their behemoth boilers with full compliment of instrumentation to monitor what happens "if"…



    I suppose it would be easier and cheaper to build a lab facility that could emulate different atmospheres based on atmospheric pressures, but then the lab techs would get bored, and wouldn't be able to enjoy their trips to COlorado.



    And for what its worth Richard, the combustion analysis tools you use for monitoring combustion health has an Oxygen sensor and a CO sensor, but not a CO2 sensor, no? I suspect the Lambda is tied to an O2 sensor. O2 is the inverse of CO2, or vice versa. I could be wrong, have been in the past and will be in the future, but I've never replaced a CO2 sensor on all of the combustion analyzers I've owned and serviced over the years :-)



    Just conjecting here… Let us know what you find after your trip up the hill. Would be interesting to find out what really happens during a mid burn fuel switch as well. LP to NG, back to LP… If ANYONE could do it, you could.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Environmental altitude adaptions:

    Flue Gas Adaptation

    If that was the earlier model that i think that it may have had the Flue gas adaptation feature.. That was a good Boiler..

    @

    If that feature is no longer applied, it sounds like a good selling point for a boiler with that feature.

    Maybe I should have used Switzerland as a, area with a lot of high altitude populations? Far more than Colorado.

    If you don't understand about how aircraft engines work, modern sealed combustion gas boilers have a lot in common. Varying loads into the same power plant. The liquid fuel content always stays the same, no matter where it is. The only variable is the air that the engine "breathes". The higher you go, the less air to breathe. The same air is available at 30,000' as at sea level just expanded. The boiler never moves once installed and set up. Engines move in 3 planes. Normally aspirated engines are limited by their service ceiling, where they can't breath enough air to be efficient. So, supercharging or turbocharging. Without the supercharger, any air that goes into the engine is introduced by atmospheric pressure and the vacuum created as the piston goes down in the bore, the intake. Then the air is compressed by the power stroke. The proper amount of fuel is introduced. The more air compressed, the more fuel can be introduced. More fuel, more power. Diesels do it by jamming as much fresh air into a cylinder as practical on the intake stroke. At the beginning of the power stroke, they introduce the fuel (Fuel Injection) and the friction heat of the compressing air, causes the fuel to ignite causing the gas to expand. The injection system continues to add fuel during the burn and as the piston is driven down in the cylinder. Gasoline engines add fuel through the intake stroke. Once the valve closed, that's all their is. Formula 1 race engines do it over 12,000 times a minute? Astonishing. Or maybe it's 6,000+ times a minute. Its a 4 stroke,

    If that Veissmann Lambda feature was available and could constantly adjust the power level for existing conditions, it wasn't publicized. I only knew about it because someone asked the question and the instructor answered it. I knew immediately, the application.

    I think that that feature could be a huge selling point for boilers. specially with the winter problems that the Nat. Gas suppliers are having in winters in the USA with keeping gas BTU content and pressures at prescribed levels. Even LPG has an issue because if it is really cold, LPG doesn't vaporize as fast as it could and a burner that automatically adjusts to the available fuel and air would be a hot seller among the American Techno-weenies. The American homeowner who is living with his 50 YO standing pilot gas boiler and can no longer get second hand parts, isn't going to buy one, he'll be complaining that he can't still get a like kind boiler and will complain about Gub'Ment interference in his life. The marriage of the Techno-weenie and the savvy and knowledgeable installer will have a great sales tool.

    What else is there out there for someone that wants efficient heating at over 4,000'?
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,524
    CO2 vs. O2 with EOS

    As far as i understood my UEI has a CO2 sensor that uses a EOS ( Electro Optical Sensor)..Not a O2 sensor...Viessmann does not use a CO2 or a O2 sensor..



    Do you want to be part of this Field Trip?..Maybe Hoosier Pass...Independence Pass is not open yet but maybe Mister Anderson and I can make some turns while we do this "Field Trip"...
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    No thanks….

    Gravity and I have a personal agreement. I don't mess with it, and it won't mess with me… other than an occasional sagging/drooping body part and inevitable couch lock...



    Watch out for bare naked rock fields :-) Or, get yourself a GoPro so we can watch it as well. Will you be dragging a hot tub up there for testing? Hippy chick magnet.



    I will have to defer to your knowledge on the sensor, because my information is OLD.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Stable Attitudes:

    ME,

    I only brought this up out of interest and curiosity. I know far more about this subject today than when I brought it up. I'll never see one. But I like my aged and failing brain to be exercised.

    Long into this discussion, I considered that issue of flame stabilization. Because although you provide positive pressure air through the blower, it loses the pressure to expansion in the combustion chamber. The higher the incoming positive pressure, the harder it becomes to stop flame pull off because the air around the flame is expanding after being compressed. Maybe back-pressure helps? My over 40 son is still racing dirt bikes and still wins Championships, He's nuts. His old Honda 250 CC 2-stroke dirt bikes all had this expansion chamber right after the exhaust port to provide backpressure to the engine. Without the expansion chamber, the engine ran terribly and would probably blow up. I remember now you talking about the high altitude hotel and the Lochinvar engineers. I just like to think scenarios out and understand them. If high altitude flame pull off is an issue with higher air pressures, does it happen on high fire  or does it start with modulating down to lower fires? Where chamber air expansion becomes an issue at lower firing levels. That's (I believe) the issue with the 2-stroke engine and accumulator/expansion chamber. It helped with back pressure. Perhaps it needs variable backpressure, to give back pressure in the chamber but allow the normal atmospheric expansion after the flame production. I always thought that the problems with fire in early Munchkins was caused by a lack of backpressure in low fires. That if a M-80 was vented with 3", on low fire, the exhaust was too big. If they were vented directly outside from the boiler. 2" always worked better and a 3" X 2" PVC bushing stuck in a 3" exhaust termination always helped for me. But where I lived, osculating wind speed and direction was the same as the aircraft going up and down. I had problems with make up air that I tried to prove. I tried all kinds of things. Nothing available was accurate enough. A good Barometer wouldn't do it. I thought of an aircraft Altimeter. There are no used aircraft Altimeters because they get repaired. If they are in a crash, they are no good. You should be able to set an aircraft altimeter, outside, to what ever Barometric pressure you chose, and go inside. If the pressure is higher or lower inside, the needle should act.

    Cheaper than a one time $500.00+ instrument. Just curious.

    I'm sure that those outside the box thinkers have thought of anything I could come up with. I'm only interested in how it works and why.
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,524
    Good selling Point'S

    Yes... This IS a good selling point ... A Self adjusting Boiler that is basing it's Combustion on the Fuel/ Conditions that it is subjected to.. This has been available here in the USA for about 3 years now...To bad they are not bringing the Internet enabled Boilers over here yet...

    Your Boiler can visit with you on your I-Phone..

    Especially this generation with the I phones is the customer that will purchase the European Model....I personally think that Viessmann is going to miss DAS BOOT on that feature...Jaaa.

    EBM Papst a Bavarian Company makes all kinds of Lambda Pro Blowers with some very nice controls..If fact they make the Blower for the Viessmann as well..

    Very Cool Stuff ...Maybe the American Market does not justify bringing this technology over here...I an guessing that a Company Like Viessmann is hopefully doing the Market research aspect on this one correctly..
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Yah i would say that the

    engineers picnic site might be a "Bit Flashy" for my tastes lol..



    I get what icesailor is saying .



    what i also get is minor technicalities in flame position and dimension and was merely pointing out that at a certain point things change rapidly from controlled to , not so much .

    just exactly when and where all that occurs is in a grey area for me . what additional combustion chamber changes or quality of materials that would be required were some of the items that i thought might be what was hampering simply changing air fuel mixtures .



    i think i was influenced unduly by engineers who had done some experiments on the what happens when scenarios and leaped to that picture in my minds eye.



    because of that piece of information it looked like a formidable challenge and something that might be generating call backs from ,"Hello Operator , give me Jesus on the line ," which unfortunately then gave rise to thoughts of Mexican cuisine and the entirely different meaning ,

    of

    "Elevated dish" , may have for them that cooks something up with magic mushrooms and say your friendly tourista considering trying some specialite D 'masion , not quite realizing just what that all may mean ...



    Mark , put it in perspective, when he said that the flame area Moves as being possibly the part of the neglected aspect. that is the part that i was saying about shock wave within the flame . That moves . when it does , things go very different very quickly , this gave rise to the thought that , while we are speaking about atmospheres and combustion flame characteristics and maintaining correct air fuel mixtures, the slight variations might give The Rocky Mountain High a entirely New meaning, raising it to even greater heights , should the unit go ,

    "Bang!"

    because Bang! is not good in home appliance markets .



    The stability of mixed gas depends upon it's nobility as it were , so it behaves a bit different at higher altitudes and can quickly ascend to loftier plateaus . ...



    i hate the way i think , because i often inject humor into conversations due to a type of educational circumnambulation on a quicker straight line, i even have my own vocabulary i made up when studying Greek and Latin and English ... the teachers... cha the questions i would drop out of no where with , up set them ... it was not in the books that they had studied , yet ,there it was , line for line word for word within what they were Teaching us , so , if some of my expressions or words are bit more understandable even though they are not in a dictionary , please , with me at least, try to remember that things mean exactly what i want them to mean . lol...

    Sorry , i digress ...

    any way , i am certain that anything man can make man can break .



    therein is the devil of or the crux of the matter . just how much techno will we have to be able to argue when the blame is on us for selecting the equipment in the first place as the Blame is Firmly established ...: )



    We do not want that particularly , because like i was saying just the other day to a buddy ,", yes . it is as you say ... however, if the electrode goes to ground at 14000 volts, the guy in his bathtub might not be Able to be apologized to later. So , i would hold off on that idea , until you have the correct electrodes with the right ceramic insulation and correct holder . add auxiliary heat until the morrow.





    some ideas give rise to alternative ideas , some technology is all about improving one aspect and moving it into another arena . ( even as i write this , i envision the arena designed by a computer engineer collapsing on folks heads because of human efforts to hang banners or something off of the structures) i cannot help that it seems something that just happens within my mind . It may be that the control issues will indeed be overcome and work within the parameters of mixed gas combustion appliances economically in the future , that is what is so unique about The Wall. we discuss things from a variety of experiential observation points as it were and quite often a manufacturer gets in on the conversations and bada bing ! it happens ! : )



    not always though . just that sometimes their reasons are on another track after trying to decipher all we say. the days of summer are approaching and there is a lot of work to get accomplished this year . i think i really need to get after it before i start feeling guilty that i didn't give someone the shirt off my back this coming year ...lol



    enjoyed the thread and the evolution of the thread *~//:)