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How many of you carry

Tim McElwain
Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,451
a Personal Protective Equipment Carbon Monoxide detector?



What level of PPM does it go off at?



Should fire department first responders and police have detectors?



All this is really not necessary as you would quickly be able to tell if CO is present the minute you enter a dwelling as it would cause a headache, sore throat and you would know it was CO. What do you think about that statement.



Recent CO incidents have brought to question proper training, personal CO detection carried on your person, and police and fire personnel entering buildings and being over come.



Should public buildings be required to have CO detectors?



A wet kit Combustion Analyzer set up will pick up CO immediately and a zero smoke reading on a gas boiler would tell you if you had high levels of CO. What do you think about that statement?



On an oil boiler or furnace it is not necessary to have a wet kit (blue chemical) Fyrite for measuring oxygen?  It is not necessary because we take an over-fire draft reading.

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 15,742
    Not being a contractor...

    I don't carry one!  However...



    When I was engaged in hazardous waste management and engineering, we paid a lot of attention to nasties like CO, having this odd desire to get home and say hi to the kids at the end of the day.



    So....



    Should fire department first responders and police have detectors?

    yes!







    All this is really not necessary as you would quickly be able to tell if

    CO is present the minute you enter a dwelling as it would cause a

    headache, sore throat and you would know it was CO. What do you think

    about that statement.

    phooey.  It could kill you before you were aware of it -- though it isn't as bad as hydrogen sulfide that way.







    Recent CO incidents have brought to question proper training, personal

    CO detection carried on your person, and police and fire personnel

    entering buildings and being over come.







    Should public buildings be required to have CO detectors?

    Yes -- at least in the boiler room or anywhere else there is combustion equipment.  They're cheap, dang it.







    A wet kit Combustion Analyzer set up will pick up CO immediately and a

    zero smoke reading on a gas boiler would tell you if you had high levels

    of CO. What do you think about that statement?

    Not a whole lot.







    On an oil boiler or furnace it is not necessary to have a wet kit (blue

    chemical) Fyrite for measuring oxygen?  It is not necessary because we

    take an over-fire draft reading.













    right... although there are decent oxygen sensing probes these days as well.  But you do need something.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Member Posts: 862
    PPE

    I carried a Scott Bacharach personal CO alarm set to alert at 35ppm for about 12 years. It has been replaced by a CO Angel set to 35 as well. They have gone off so many times I couldn't count. They have drawn a lot of inquiries from homeowners which led to sales of low level CO monitors and repairs. They gained respect from mechanical building inspectors, fire marshals, etc.



    I'm a retired paramedic and have transported quite a number of CO victims. I've had CO poisoning myself back when I worked for someone else.



    Personally, I think its irresponsible to send any employee into any buildings without a personal CO alarm. Note that in the recent Long Island incident, three paramedics had to be treated as well.



    A local EMS responded to a call at a grocery store that ended up transporting 31 to the ER. They discovered the reason granny zonked out at the bakery counter when their personal CO alarm sounded. BTW, their dept. responded wearing SCBA and screened everyone in the store with Masimo Rad57 CO pulse oximetry units and transported anyone with a COHb of 5% or higher. BTW, 6 were transported from the adjoining drugstore.



    Anyone entering a crawlspace should wear a 4 in one confined space alarm: LEL, O2, CO, H2S
  • TonyS
    TonyS Member Posts: 849
  • BillW
    BillW Member Posts: 198
    Personal protection

    For safety, all hvac service people should have a carbon monoxide monitor and a combustible gas monitor. Any plumbers and those who enter confined spaces regularly should also have an oxygen monitor and a hydrogen sulphide monitor.

    There are combination units available from several manufacturers, and you may need to go to a safety equipment supply house to find them, since your usual supply house may not be able to service them. They need regular calibration and sensor changes. Everybody knows you can't smell CO, but hydrogen sulphide is deadly. In low concentrations, it smells like rotten eggs, but quickly paralyzes your sense of smell, and is no longer detectable. You can die within minutes in a high concentration of hydrogen sulphide. It is often found in storm sewers, sanitary sewers and any place organic matter is decaying. It's not only lp or natural gas you need to be concerned about, either. LP and propane are heavier than air and can concentrate in low areas, just waiting for an ignition source. Methane gas can be found in the same places hydrogen sulphide is, and is explosive in the right concentrations. Even a brand-new steel tank that has never been filled with anything can be deadly. Why? The steel rusts and depletes the oxygen. In an oxygen deficient atmosphere unconciousness can occur very quickly. Make sure the employees who use these are tranied properly, and use them regularly. Be careful out there!
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Excellent:

    Excellent Post.

    Thanks.
  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    CO

    Which is heavier CO or air ?
    bob
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,665
    Which is heavier CO or air ?

    If I remember high school chemistry correctly, all gasses at the same temperature and pressure weigh the same.



    But in particular for these two gasses, they would certainly be the same because Avogadro's law states that, "equal volumes of all gases, at the same

    temperature and pressure, have the same number of molecules"... Now the molecule of CO weighs 12 + 16 and "molecule" of air that is 80% nitrogen weighs 14 + 14. So they are the same. Actually, since air is 20% oxygen, would weigh a little more (16 + 16), so air would settle. Except for one thing: If they were all at the same temperature and pressure, they would be thoroughly mixed regardless of the weight of the molecules because unless the room were at absolute zero, the thermal energy of the molecules would keep them completely mixed.
  • Eric_51
    Eric_51 Member Posts: 30
    edited February 2014
    mixing of gasses

    If that was the case, why do they recommend co2 detectors be mounted low. 

    the specific gravity of co2 is .966 but air is1
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,451
    Carbon Monoxide at

    60 degrees is .97 specific gravity as compared to air which is 1.0 SG. As the temperature goes down however CO may actually become slightly heavier than air. It brings me to something I teach my classes, CO will accumulate at typically mid point in a room. So the detectors should be at that point (sorry Massachusetts), I call it "head to bed" head standing up to bed lying down. I prefer for use in my home portable detectors like CO Experts 2014 or 2015. I can move them from room to room depending on what rooms are occupied especially at night on the night stand in the bedroom. I heat with a pellet stove so definitely one in the room about 25 feet from the stove.



    The fact that CO and air are so close in SG makes CO even more dangerous. Your body will actually absorb CO faster and hold it longer than it will oxygen.



    Education is the big thing get to Jim Davis classes or Bacharach and my 3 day combustion testing design equipment classes.
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,451
    Eric, I believe

    you meant CO not CO2?
  • Eric_51
    Eric_51 Member Posts: 30
    your right co no 2

    sorry my brain is much faster than my typing. Than why do they make detectors that plug in outlets?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,549
    CO height

    This is something that I wondered about when I first saw the Nest smoke / CO detector that they always show mounted on a ceiling.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,451
    Ceiling installation or

    wall receptacle are probably more for convenience and will still work it just may take a little longer to alarm. Most of the over the counter detectors alarm at 70 PPM after 240 minutes which satisfies UL-2034. My detector I use alarms at 9 PPM immediately, much safer.
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