Hoffman Valve 4A Problem Releasing water vs Air

Sweet_Lou

I have a One Pipe Steam Heating System which was upgraded with a new Burnham Gas Steam Heat Boiler.  The old Boiler was oil.  The main pressure release valve (Hoffman 4A) which happens to be the closest to Boiler is spitting water from the top on occasion.  It doesn't seem to handle the release of air pressure fast enough or perhaps the valve is no longer working properly.  The Hoffman valve I have is at least 15-20 years old. I've heard the new valves are not made as well as some of the older ones.  So, I am reluctant just to replace without some advise.  Also, could it be that I need to add a 2nd Hoffman 4A to the main line to handle the increase air pressure resulting from a new boiler install?

ALIGA

can you post some pics

of the install and the near pipes.

conversiontime

4a vs gorton 1 or 2

 Not familiar with 4a as main vent. I would swap with one gorton 2 as these are great main vents for my 1 pipe mains.

Sweet_Lou

Pictures as requested

1st picture is of the Burnham Gas Steam Boiler.

2nd picture is a side view of the Hoffman Valve & connection.

3rd picture is a straight on view of the Hoffman valve & connection.  You can see markings on the pipe that water has been escaping from the top of the valve.

Jamie Hall

The 4A

is at least intended to be a main vent -- but it is a rather small one.  As has been said, a Gorton #1 or even better (bigger) #2 might be an improvement.



However... they may spit water as well, if the pressure is too high.  That is also not a really optimum piping for it, if you have wet steam or water hammer; it would be better if it were offset on an almost horizontal section of pipe rather than on that 45 (I say almost horizontal, as it should pitch back to the connection with the main, of course).



Check your pressure...

Steamhead

How long is that steam main

and what pipe size is it?

Sweet_Lou

Hoffman Valve 4A Problem Releasing water vs Air

The Hoffman valve pictured is at the end of the Short Main about 13' from the boiler.  The furthest main which is approximately 50' from the boiler has 3 Hoffman Valves at the end releasing pressure efficiently.

So, would switching from a Hoffman 4A to a Gorton 1 do the trick or should I repipe this valve?

Could it also be that the new boiler is putting out to much PSI?  Any help in what to look for on the Burham or how to adjust the pressure would be appreciated.   

Jamie Hall

I'd probably replace

the valve, since it looks pretty beat up.  But... it may still be working -- and they can be cleaned (soak it in vinegar for a while).



On the pressure -- on the front of your boiler, near the top left, there is a grey box with a clear plastic cover.  That's the pressuretrol.  If you were to take a nice closeup picture of it, we can tell you what it's presently set at -- and, if it needs to be changed, what to set it to (it should be set to cutout at 1.5 to 2 psi, and cut back in at around 0.5 psi).

Sweet_Lou

Hoffman Valve 4A Problem Releasing water vs Air

So, here are some pictures to help towards identifying my problem of whether I need to replace the Hoffman valve or is my heating system generating too much steam pressure.  Attached are pictures of my Honeywell Pressure Control Gauge and the current settings which exist on my Burnham Boiler.

Hap_Hazzard

It's just the float model of the #4 "quick vent."

Brand new they're supposed to have the venting capacity of a Gorton #1, but they seem to get fouled up with scale and end up more like a #5 or 6.

Hap_Hazzard

Looks like

2 psi cut-out, 1 psi cut-in.

JStar

Steam

Near boiler piping is far from ideal. Not horrible, but certainly not acceptable. New boilers should not create more pressure. All boilers should operate at very LOW pressures. I'm inclined to think that you are making a lot of wet steam, causing condensate to be where it oughtn't.



EDIT: On second thought, after another look...the piping is, in fact, horrible.

Hap_Hazzard

You think?

Was it the dried up rust all over the vent that's been leaking rusty water for years, or was it the 1 1/2" risers and lack of a real header that gave it away



Sorry, Sweet_Lou, but if you look at the instructions in the IOM, they specify something very different. Obviously the installer never read them. Why do people install expensive boilers like this and make sure the owner never never gets the full value out of it unless somebody comes along and puts it right?

Sweet_Lou

Hoffman Valve 4A Problem Releasing water vs Air

Sweet_Lou

Hoffman Valve 4A Problem Releasing water vs Air

Really appreciate everyone's comments and feedback.

So, it seems the current 45 degree connection from the short main is not a good one and this could be causing the problem.  As Jamie noted I could extend the current connection horizontally to fix the problem.  Any thoughts on how long of a horizontal connection I should have 3" to 4"?

Also any feedback on the current pressure setting and if they are optimal would be appreciated.  

nicholas bonham-carter

Causing the problem

The bad piping on the boiler is causing the problem, and the vent leakage is more of a symptom of that.

How long has this boiler been in place, and can you get the installer back to correct his piping to the factory requirements?--NBC

Sweet_Lou

Hoffman Valve 4A Problem Releasing water vs Air

NBC thanks for you insight.  Bad piping surrounding the boiler?  The Plumber I used to do the install has since retired and is no longer in the area.  He was an old timer who really seem to really know his stuff.  He also came with a great crew of guys who each had there own specialty as the Old Man surpervised the entire install.  The boiler is only 2 years old.  From the pictures what specifically is wrong?

I know one of the issues they had when installing this boiler was they did not have much room (height) when installing this boiler.  This boiler was bigger than the one that was here before which ran on oil.  Ideally I wanted the boiler raised from the floor but this could not be achieved whithout repiping the entire system.  So the boiler sits only a few inches off the floor and was installed using the existing height of the mains and returns. 

DFH

What do you mean by "Wet Steam"?

From an earlier post above?

nicholas bonham-carter

What is wet steam?

When there are too many water droplets mixed with the steam as it rushes out of the boiler into the supplies, then there is an increase of condensate to be returned to the boiler, which can drop its water level.

The purpose of a properly piped supply header, above the boiler is to separate out these water droplets from the steam, and drain them immediately back to the boiler by way of the equalizer. In the case of this boiler, all the excess water has to go through the supplies, and returns in order to return to the boiler, shortening its life. The installer has put in what he thought was an equalizer, but which will not function well. If you follow the instructions in the boiler manual, you will have the correct piping, which was not done here.--NBC

Sweet_Lou

Hoffman Valve 4A Problem Releasing water vs Air

JSTAR

What is it specifically about the boiler piping that is so troubling.

This is no excuse but the oil fired boiler which I replaced may have been piped wrong and as a result my installer did the best he could dealing with a larger sized boiler and height restrictions.  

Based on what you see in the picture can you determine if this piping issue can be fixed?

PS: I think it was a good idea to change your name.    

Double D

Boiler manual

Page17 will give you an idea of what you should be seeing in the near boiler piping.

http://www.gogeisel.com/geiselonline/support/Burnham/Independence_Gas_Boiler.pdf

Sweet_Lou

Hoffman Valve 4A Problem Releasing water vs Air

So, it appears my piping is horrible?

This week I contacted the most reputable heating company in my area.  I specifically asked for their best steam technician/plumber to come out to my house.  He said the piping was not perfect but okay.  His only comment was that some of the pipes from the boiler would be best if the were at a 45 degree angle vs vertical.  However, I am still concerned based upon comments I have received from the experts on this website.  He even referred me to the website to obtain a better opinion as to me as "Horrible" and "okay" are not synonyms.

I even took a look at the schematics on Burnham manuel pg 17 and the comment on piping on an angle vs vertical and mention both are acceptable

So, if someone could be more specific as to what is so bad about the piping it  would be greatly appreciated.    

Jamie Hall

I'm not sure...

that I would call the near boiler piping horrible.  More... ah... idiosyncratic.  However, it could be causing some problems with wet steam.  I'm not sure that I see an equalizer in the one picture, but I assume it must be there somewhere.



Probably the worst of the problems is the sequence (going from left to right looking at the front of the boiler) of a riser coming in, the a T taking a steam main out, then another riser coming in, then at the far end another steam main going out.  Given the overhead location of that first steam main, I'm not sure what I might have done differently -- stared at it for a while, I suppose -- but the problem is that that main, particularly, will tend to have water droplets (wet steam) brought up into it because of the way the steam will be flowing in the horizontal pipe (try to envision it!  It's good exercise!).



On the other hand, everything is set up so that it can move as it expands -- that's good.



Please tell me there is an equalizer back there somewhere...

JStar

Piping

Why is the piping bad?



1. As Jamie mentioned, the sequence and arrangement is not right. The layout should be Boiler riser #1. Boiler riser #2. Mains (one or several). Equalizer into return. Any other setup will cause turbulence and wet steam. Wet steam costs money, and causes problems.



2. The boiler risers should only enter the header at the side or top. Never from the bottom. This will ensure that the condensate never rains down on the risers, destroying the steam quality.



3. I don't see an equalizer either. Can you take more pictures from all around the boiler?



"Reputable" does not always imply something positive.

Sweet_Lou

Pictures ofthe piping as requested.

One thing I know I need to do is to replace the Hoffman 4a's I have on top of all my returns.  I know I need more venting...

So here are 4 pictures taken of the boiler from all sides.  I hope this helps add some clarity to my piping problem.

Thanks again for everyone's support and comments!!

JStar

Piping

Ok, so it's confirmed that there is no equalizer. The water in the boiler is now free to go wherever it wants, usually backwards into the return. Where is the "faulty" main vent, you say? On the return, near the end of the main, of course.

Jamie Hall

Thank you for the pictures...

but one has to wonder.  What is so hard about putting in an equalizer?  Lack of one will cause problems.  As Joe said, what happens without on is the water will back out of the boiler up towards -- or into -- the returns.  Problems with water in the vents?  Perhaps.  Problems with low water in the boiler when running?  Quite likely.



However...



Looking at the whole setup now, I can see that it would be possible with really relatively little effort to repipe the near boiler piping to get a nifty drop header in there complete with equalizer.  It would take a little ingenuity -- that middle main would wind up with a slightly odd looking slanting section in it -- but it would probably work better.  Maybe much better.



Do you have a good steam man available?  Or an ingenious plumber who's not afraid of really thinking things through and spinning some pipe?

Sweet_Lou

Hoffman Valve 4A Problem Releasing water vs Air

Joe & Jamie,



Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my badly piped Boiler.  Some good news today.  Although my original installer has retired he has past on his client list to someone who seems pretty knowledgeable.  I talked to him today and he was very surprised when he looked at my photos and how the boiler was piped.  He is going to stop by next week as he would like to see the boiler in person. 



So, just to be clear an equalizer and a drop header would help to reduce most of my problems?  I will still probably change all of the valves with new Gorton's and then work on the Rad vents where needed to balance out the system.



Anything else you think I may be missing any comments are much appreciated.  I will let you both know what the final outcome after his visit next week.



  

Jamie Hall

Hang in there

and anything we can do to help, let us know!  Glad you have someone coming around to take a look.