radiant service in Minneapolis

jim_h

flow rate

weezbo, I am sooooo done with computers.  I like physical/mechanical problems now.  But if you ever have a PC problem feel free to tap my brain.



I'm only using 1 zone and the system was spec'd for 2.   So I am wondering if the pump is moving the fluid faster than necessary or even faster than optimal.   The goal is apparently .6 gpm  per loop, so maybe 1.5 gpm total.   But how do I know what the actual flow rate is, without a gauge in the system?  Doesn't it depend on several factors? 



Maybe these sorts of topics will be discussed in that book I just ordered.  It will be nice to have some basis of knowledge going forward.  I can understand the electronic and control aspects but plumbing is not my game.

Weezbo

ok the headder ...

look real closely at that one with what look to be some stopper or float in side clear round gauges ...

the lower black pipe nearest your plane of reference...



How Good is That ! a GAUGE! lol....

and if that is not good enough ,

there are six of them ....they clearly show which loops are open and how much they are open .. !!!

nice huh?

these are the rough equivalent of individual current monitors of each leg of a complex motor starter ...



"buh ,wait ! theres More!" lol..

As seen on T.V. lol

Wow!

(helping you has led me to some astonishing results and completely new information ... yet , it involves a very interesting aspect of our country's future financial power because of their specific interest taken in ...Ta Da ! Balancing of hydronic and heating and cooling systems .

i think there will be some massive fundage thrown at Field side System inefficiencies for the next ten years.

this is like a birthday gift or something Wow! )

Sorry , i digressed ...

these gauges allow the balancing to some relatively tight performance levels.

It is something that may require some tools for adding water once again ...

hold on i have found something that is an interesting read for you here ,

...

.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/143107/Balancing-Uponor-TruFLO-manifold



there are many balancing manifolds made these days , especially small ones useful in the residential markets ... our circulators are also more and more,

" lending to blending",

looking for the step away step up and step down somewhat like the

" Sine wave Chopping "

jim_h

Bazinga!

I see the gauges.  They are calibrated from 0 to 1 gpm.   And when the system is running, they go to about 0.25 instead of the 0.6 the drawing leads me to expect.





I resisted the urge to start twisting those obvious adjustment wheels until I know more.  Obviously, increasing the flow rate could speed up transfer of heat to the slab BUT only if the ability of the heater isn't exceeded.   And there's no point in transferring heat faster if the controller is already managing to stay on its desired curve.   On the other hand there's no point in reducing the flow with those adjustable valves if the same thing could be accomplished by running the pump slower.  I'm thinking the valves should be as wide open as possible, and the pump should run as slow as possible, and the flow rate should be no more than the controller needs.  Many factors. . 



No doubt that book will make All Things Clear.

Weezbo

EEK!

easy now easy now ....lol

calm down ... lol



Yay!



twisting them is in the,

"ok donnnn do dat righta bout now " ,

category of priorities ...

however , it enables you to see the distinction immediately ... in seconds when you arrive to trouble shoot a problem.



.......Coffee!

I understand and appreciate your judicious reserve in curtailing your immediate enthusiasm , i believe it to be far greater than my own ...lol

*~//: )

jim_h

don't worry

The valves will remain undisturbed for the forseeable future.



I am guessing that the flow rate is not a critical parameter.

My only concern would be that the pump is not working harder than necessary because the valves are closed further than necessary.  And there must be a reason why the engineers, at installation, chose this flow rate setting instead of the .6 on the drawing.   

 

Those guys who have built homes with every room a separate zone must have to tune the whole thing like a giant violin.  

  

Weezbo

Oh yes indeedy !

Especially when they are tasked with providing resonance frequencies chopping for greater energy savings while producing even greater comfort ,

and asked politely if Breakfast at Woolworths would suffice in exchange...: ))

Weezbo

Flow rate ,

there are some mighty fine distinctions in flow rates and balanced systems .



as there are temperature minutia ...



lets say , for now that you had folks who were equipped with some very sharp pencils working upon your heating system at the outset ...



when you have an Apm reading , i would be interested because there are always clues to these finer distinctions ... i would like to see how it squares with one of my own balancing acts.

on a 40 to one .

and another with slightly under 4 miles of emitter.

jim_h

beta site

Typically the purpose of a beta site is to prove that a product meets some design goal and is therefor marketable.   The Uponor guys collected a lot of TED data.  So they may have tuned the system towards energy efficiency rather than fast response, hence the lower flow rates.   I observe that the controller is very conservative with regard to treating the setpoint as a maximum never to be exceeded.  Typically the temperature hangs a degree or 2 below the setpoint.  .  

Weezbo

.9999 fine

Is the thing that is being looked for , when the installers took the time to do this they were

looking for a condition where your system did not do power ups and power downs , it is a combination of parameters that they were taking into account .

our industry because of these tests have driven The Work forward .

This has created new opportunities and generated thinking to tighten up band width as it were. We have moved or stepped away from the Bang ON , Bang OFF . to controls that turn on stay on and continue to keep pace with just enough energy while reducing the Power Factor something more in line with the observable rheostat or dimmer switch .

Variable speed drives are possibly a better example .

someone unfamiliar with these ideas might think your system was "Broken" or incapable of running 'Right" yet i am more inclined to think that this exactly what they wanted everything to be doing .

Just enough flow , just enough heat , to continually adjust to maintain operation .

i got detoured today Jim , checking on some instruments , tests, inspections dates paying some bills and the like . So i did not tarry much nor get more information on the circ ,

the idea of your system is not to apply heat then shut down and when you feel cold you go turn it back up.it is to find a way to continually self adjust to nearly hitting a point where it will be satisfied and do so unless the outdoor sensor sees a specific temp that is known as WWSD or warm weather shut down ,

they may also have built into this system something i have been working away at where the circulator continues to move energy gain from one side of the home due to solar heat gain to the cooler side there by keeping the distribution of energy happening even in the summer when typical hydronic systems shut down .

it is a comfort issue , say, rather than strictly energy efficient heating.

The basic idea is to get efficiency for cooling as well as heating without setting air conditioners in motion ...it is somewhat ad tedium in a way ...

There is a really good magazine put forth by Caleffi called Idronics and the July issue number 13 in the series has a shopping list of goodies and information that would be more of an eye opener for your appreciation of what your team installed for you .

for they too may have been searching for more than .9999 fine on the heating side alone.

do not know that with certainty however it is not beyond the ream of credulity.in my minds eye.

you can sign up for these issues and perhaps even read back issues on line .

you may even see something that relates to similar conditions with The Work that you have invested your time and life and go I recognize this and i understand a cure for that ... : )



maybe hire me on in a beta test of your own )

here we have very cold water that is circulated thru each house on Latterals a supply and a return ,potable water at or near 42 degrees , i have spent considerable time trying to convince the engineers to let me install some plate or heat exchangers to act like heat extractors on the line ...

it took years and years , finally a young guy in The Sheet metal "Air side " of the picture managed to get through to them and i had the chance to install the first one .. on an air system ... which i need to check on so i can run the idea of hydronic application by them again ...:))

any way ,.. wouldn't it be interesting to have your heating system be a functioning part of your homes cooling system ?



*~//: )

jim_h

a real product

I talked to my contact within Uponor today (not an engineer unfortunately) and he thinks the system in my garage probably went on to become an actual product not much different from the prototype.  I think it may be a prototype for the Radiant Ready 30E although the changes were not minor; totally different heater for example.  But there's an owner's manual for the 30E which has interesting information and much of it probably applies.



What's this about propylene glycol getting acidic over time and needing to be replaced?  I'm supposed to measure pH once a year - but how could one do that with a closed system, and not have to purge and pressurize all over again?

Weezbo

you have The prototype ...

That is sharp. !

: )

About the glycol mix , there is one that comes premixed with a distinctive pink tinge .

Some times i add food colouring from the grocery store to deepen the colour to Cherry red , florescent Blue or an electric orange , either at the onset or in the case of some inherited or orphaned system i find particularly challenging which pipe goes where .

if some young guy cannot remember what his coworker did weeks ago and then hooks up pipe or tube that is looking coherently systematic may find that his co worker did something else and have made the assumption that the pipes or tubes were laid out supply to the left returns to the right , or in the case of individual stub outs trough a sheet rocked textured , primed and painted wall were in some other formation ... the food colouring helps identify what zone or tube is related to what ...

added food colouring to water is nice because even if their is no problem it looks good.

to add electrolytes is an experiential deal although there are some anti freeze like the one you have that can be purchased with them in the mix ..

i tend to think buy a drum , use 100 % and a known water source , add at a later date as needed . older systems , get sample send it out get electrolytes and add as directed by the report .

Hangranade approach is litmus test look for a Sta- bil electrolyte and add it .

for you the additive in the mix is likely the easiest way to roll. Some of the older additives and products have been up graded to this century ... we have all sorts of tools and test equipment that we accumulate over the years . it is funny when we look in a tool box and go

' dang i dont even know what this tool is and i own it' : ))

we have all hinds of chemical pastes for finding water in oil tanks and these are useful as well . So , here again , it depends upon the size of systems because when you tell someone that he will need 2000 gallons of new antifreeze then he wishes he dah istened to you earlier on when it was 8 $ a gallon to find a chemist to keep up with it . Gold miners have employees that keep after water quality and they sometimes have specialists come in who add a variety of chemical components this it self is a science and goes long... some types of anti freeze can be very spendy to get rid of as well . O My! lol i do not want to go there buh one should realise it cannot be dumped down a drain call it good. nope that wont fly.

so if yu are the one doing this you have to do your homework ...;) i heard a minister of health babbeling about potato chip police last year .. and taxing these products extra heavy ..he did not call them potato chip police i 'did in my reply to him nevertheless our societies are in constant change so, be mindful that what may be ok today may not be on the morrow.

1. identify the mix

2. get the additive

3. add the correct amounts

4. dispose of properly .

Some abatement outfits do chemical some yellow iron knick knack support companies they give you a couple bottles and will send you a report from their Labs. i do this with transmission and engine oil as well. siply ecause before i go saying piece of cake add x containers of sta clean per instructions .. it is best to make certaain someone else has not added a variety of say ethylene glycol to the mix. or the anti freeze require an act of congress to get rid of lol.

The learning curve is severe on the uninformed .....sonntine..

For the most part you need not overly concern yourself right at the moment though .

we are just in the gathering information to steer by, phase.

there are places that will accept anti freeze and dispose of them for FREE, if you only deliver 5 gallons at a time ,for Harvey Homeowner, it does not get much better than that.

i hope that helps you see the big picture .

Weezbo.

the 30 E you tube vids look sharp . i usually sho up drag out my water heater it has one pipe going in and one coming out . run some pex to the manifold purge ,add anti freeze or water depending on temp and insulation % of completion of project , fill the tank lash it to the branch servicefeeder /circuit breaker box dial the temp up after a few mins and let it roll a couple hours later i return and steadily increase temp.. over time that day ,

next day same thing , my gauge lets me know what is going out and i can see flow and air bubbles if they are any hiding the air purge rids them .

looks nothing like the 30 E lol...

Weezbo

this is something that i feel ...not think ...

will be part of a new revolution within our industry.



http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot245.nsf/veritydisplay/29b24f474aa7e4e4c12577e50057910c/$file/abb_1hsm954331-01_capacitors_and_filters_en.pdf



really , so many products come from some guy in a shop tinkering about who sees something or hears something and applies things that he has always known must be true .

applies his own thinking and the next cyclone wind gigaW generator power plant is developed ,..or whatever .

jim_h

Holy smoke.

Temperature.  Pressure.  Flow rate.  Controller curves. Sensors. Gauges. Setpoints.  Outside temperature. Leakage. Air bubbles.  Vents.  Valves.  Bladders.  Expansion tank.  PSI.  GPM.  Flush, fill, top, purge.  Hazardous waste disposal.



It started out as a neat way to heat my workshop.  Now I'm the head maintenance guy at Sea World.

jim_h

capacitors

I didn't realize that the electrical grid included countless capacitors, but it's obvious once pointed out - virtually every load on the grid is inductive and they want to cancel the resulting phase shift and keep everything running cool by adding monster capacitors everywhere.  I'm not an EE but I get the general idea.

Yes, could be a good company to invest in.  For many years I've been hearing about giant "super caps" as power storage for electric vehicles, instead of batteries.  Might happen.

Jean-David Beyer

I've been hearing about giant "super caps" as power storage

They are already doing this in some desktop computers. You know those lithium cells about the size of a US Quarter in there? They power the clock so it will be pretty near the right time even if you turn the computer off for a while. Those things last about 7 years, and since many people keep their computers for less than that, they never have occasion to change them.



Now some desktops (and perhaps laptops too) have a super capacitor (5.6 Farads capacity at about 5 volts that can keep a Cmos clock chip running for a long time. Not 7 years, but if you turn the computer on every week or so (I do not know how long you can go), it recharges the capacitor. Now 5 Farads at 5 volts will not power your Tesla automobile more than a foot or so with the lights and A-C off, but it is already practical for some things to use capacitors instead of primary or storage batteries.

jim_h

ZAP

Isn't safety a big barrier to supercaps in cars?  It wouldn't take much for something like that to turn into the mother of all arc welders.   Not that a tank full of gasoline is safe either...  but recharging a cap that size has to be a bit dicey.

Weezbo

so let me ask ,

just to keep this a CIVIL conversation,

Does your ammeter read the amps and then do some fancy math i have owned a variety of am meters still do ,

did your engineer guys do any readings on amps at the incoming power service and then back at the circuit breaker panel box /es because after working with multi power and voltage and phase equipment i am sorta into balancing loads .

it is interesting to me , that more residential electricians are apparently not into that aspect of their profession . in my way of thinking they should be back at it when people move into their homes ,and at it before they leave the job ... yet i haven't seen one electrician in residential even consider that ...

i would be interested in the readings because thats something i also do as sort of sop type behaviour . i check voltages and amperage and i check for imbalances .

it is like taking a draft smoke and temp when arriving on oil burning equipment .

some really great plumbers wont touch electric , they say that is not their road game

and yet it is something they encounter ... they have only specific electricians that they have work with them or will recommend though .

I have some electrical contractor friends and they also do a fair amount of near boiler piping . when i see them i always am interested in their control wiring jobs because i still carry my electrical card . i usually do not like older control wiring and do what i can to modernize it when i am on the job.

SO, you might find that there are Electrical one man to 4 man shops that do work on boiler systems also , depends on the licensing that they carry.

i know that there was a lot here that i gave you to think about , some of which might help other people in the future as well , today i will see about the circ ...

find some more info on your heat in a box . and look into another tool i wanted to get .

if you have an electrical bill handy see what the average daily use might be approximately .



Safety is super important around low voltage as well ...

almost every one on the site knows of low voltage stories that have taken the life of someone they knew , some of own meggers , really there are many tools and instruments in this line of work , the computer side of this goes deep too.

building management systems do not all speak same lingo ...: )

Weezbo

Bam! Biff!

yah and hang in here a while so we can go with Eddy currents and harmonic hysteresis lol....

jim_h

amps

Weezbo - they attached a TED monitor right at the heating panel - nothing back at the breaker box.  A TED just records power consumption over time.  I don't think they had any additional instrumentation but they might have correlated the power consumption with temperature records for the area.

Weezbo

Jim, It is as you say.

your guys definitely have not only set the parameters , in all likelihood there were also max and mins depicting nomena and phenomena as well .

thing for you is being able to have some easier way to find help and respond to situations at home , and now you have a lot of key points of interest that you may encounter .

You also have some idea now what a workman might do on a No Heat Call to your home .

and some information on things that you could say over the telephone that would better "Arm" the tech as to what you can determine.



the gauges being closed nothing working might be something simple like there is a circuit breaker that faulted ,

gauges being closed everything hot , maybe the t stat to those valves is loaded with saw dust ..for example..

the amp draw is zero and the heat is really going down hill fast yet the circ and valves are open , the heating element need to be replaced .

the pressure is really low , it is hot everything looks right ...the heat doesnt seem to be showing up at the temp gauge at the header ... the system is likely air locked.

the pressure is high the circ seems to be running , no heat at the supply header temp gauge ...might be air might be the circ impeller ...



then you notice there is no flow ....at the gauges showing flow ...

that sort of thing helps ... Maybe the Great big letters on the mechanical plumbing service company was RGB , they seemed to be like me in a way "HEP" guys Heating Electrical and Plumbing.. a.c.calls came in which i thought sorta odd for that time and temp of the year while i burned daylight with the guy ..and as air conditioning helps pay the bills i thanked him for his time and rolled on ..

jim_h

next time

Next time this happens I'll check those flow gauges. 

Had to be air lock or a close relative.  Pump running, but heater's flow sensor not triggering.  Of interest to me is whether the flow was actually 0 or just reduced.

The air may or may not have found it's way out through the automatic release - this time.   System has been running normally now for days.

Weezbo

i just applied for a job.

i told them i want a scientific lab,

and the opportunity to build it.

to investigate system side efficiencies in hydronic systems with various heat sources.

lol.. i have not applied for a job in 35 years or more.

......

you inspired me .

Weezbo

Here is a read for you ,

This i lifted from another thread , it was posted by a real adept at these minor technicalities ,

take your time .



http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/Magazines/pdf/idronics_4_us.pdf,

jim_h

thanks

Wheezbo, thanks for that reading material, looks good.

What are "system side efficiencies"?