radiant service in Minneapolis

jim_h

I need someone who can service an Uponor/Wirsbo radiant system in Minneapolis.



The system is in my garage and has been working fine for a few years. Uponor has a facility here in Minneapolis and my system was installed by a couple of their engineers as a preproduction/beta site for a new product. It looks a bit homebrew, but it uses all standard components.



We just had a cold snap here and today I see the pump is running but the American Heating tankless heater isn't turning on. Pressure in the manifold is 15 PSI but temperature is down around 70 right now (the setpoint is 90).



I realize this is a microprocessor controlled system that might be trying to bring the slab temperature up slowly after the cold snap - but if that's the case, why is the pump running?



Any suggestions on who could service this in Minneapolis?

Weezbo

hmmm...

real quick ,

in 24 below the other day my target temp was like 80 ...



makbe it isn't running because that what the engineers want it doing ..



Weezbo.

Weezbo

there is a plumbing

shop within walking distance of the factory , those guys i burned some daylight with ..

they seemed you know knowledgeable chaps . they had like RGM or something on their shop ..



was a WHile back.



Weezbo.

jim_h

not happening

The system is still losing temperature.  I pulled the cover off the heater and verified that it isn't even getting warm. 

When you say "target temp" do you mean the reading on the temperature gauge - i.e. the temperature of the fluid?

Weezbo

Test test test ....

Bummer .



no i mean my target out going on my 4 way mixer..



supply temperature gauge.

that does sound like what is happening is NOT part of a highly fortuitous approach to heating your home at this juncture .....so , did not find them drats . well, do you have a picture of this heating unit with the cover off of it and maybe something of the control board ? i do not know it all buh i know a lot of things folks have never seen and some things that they have and never really LOOkED at or considered ..

maybe we can find you some help or make something positive happen ,

Weezbo

jim_h

progress

I used to be an electronic tech and a good troubleshooter. But I know nothing about plumbing.



I verified that the heater has both 220 phases. The pump is running, the pressure is normal, but the heater LEDs never come on and the temperature is going down. My first thought is that the flow sensor isn't seeing enough flow. The system hasn't been touched since installation, so maybe the fluid level is down, or there's an air bubble somewhere.



Attached to the fluid return line is a big (12") round metal tank, painted red. I recall that this is some sort of air bladder or regulator. On the bottom of this thing is a tiny screw-off cap, as if to drain or bleed it. I put a bucket underneath and remove the little cap. Nothing happens, no hissing or spitting - but when I replace the cap the heater turns on and I hear the woooosh of fluid moving through it..  The system has returned to life.



Did this system just need to be "burped"?

Weezbo

sorry i got involved in a bunch of administrative conversations

and My sincerest apologies...

i think you are a man of action and that is a good thing . i too have done precisely the same thing in far worse situations and by the graces am still walking about on tierra firma ..

now what i think has happened is you were burning off water and got some air lock , the re is enough water in your system to remove the air lock yet there will need of a way to rid the air ,...

not too much will likely be released at any one moment again as you just did .



what i would like you to look for is some valves that are connected to a potable water supply and the heater.



there is likely two 1/4 single handled valves pointing at the boiler within the space both before the nearest to the boiler and the one furthest is something that looks like a Gold Bell and another chunk of brass we call an anti back flow suppression valve or back flow preventer .. the valves nearest and furthest or before and after the gold bell need to be open periodically to allow water that is cooked by heat and stripped of air i will call it for now , to be replaced with new water .

.....

the air gets to an expansion tank and finds it is given a place to escape , being a gas it always is looking and testing every aspect of it's container ,to get out .. there is a pressure relief valve in your system and often it being a dead end street has some place for the air to go so it trys to get out there as well.



...look for the gold bell and a water line cut off valve before and after the bell and make sure they are open ...



lets visit the heater ....



do you see any dial or round gauge with a pressure and temp reading upon the face ?



or a gauge that measures P.S.I. and some where to read actual temp?



Electric type heaters often have the heating elements buried beneath water to keep them from becoming dry and burning air rather than water ...



they are approximately the same as say a range top with 4 electric coils if some way they always stay dry the have no problem if they become wet it is no problem i tis when you add heat or have them turned on then the ticket is they will burn with a sudden splash of water which , quickly subsides either because it burned the water fast enough or because the fire had enough O to burn the metal one way one way one way the other done deal.

so,

when it went woosh water went thru the system if it the heat element was cool enough the water smothered the fire fast enough because there was not sufficent heat available ,

or when it went woosh ,

the bad boys were glowing red and it caused a fire under water and they are smoked ... if they are your amp meter will give you a clue on any one line feeding the heater . if you do not own a clamp on amp meter you can make one and then do a math type equation and bang you can tell how many amps it is drawing by wrapping a coil 1 -> 10th ratio of the voltage check om meter around the wire with your tester lead ...

it is like this though if you have heat , then some element is alive and well in river city .

by now the water from the open valves has replaced the water that was altered by heat which caused the air at the tank.

and by looking at the pressure gauge or temp gauge you will be having some sign of life on them .

.......

just for now see if the gold bell has a lever that can be raised to a vertical position , if it does you can ad some water manually by lifting the lever straight up and counting to 3 or so and you may hear the water ..if it suonds as though the water is falling into an empty metal container close the valve nearest the boiler ahead of the bell.

the power needs to turned off ,

wait a while like 15 mins or so and then go back and open the valve and let it fill back up.. i did this more than once with what i thought were pretty nice results because my heater was still functioning and all i could think was that was really lucky ... i continued to fill the tank ....

soon the heat was back up and rolling ...



i bought two new elements as soon as i could locate some again just in case though...



this is what happens every day all over the world all day long each and every day ,

water heaters , stove top coils, oven coils , forced air coils , at a wide variety of D Y

voltages .... fixing them is pretty easy get new ones turn power off disconnect the wires un thread or un bolt them stick another new one in its place re connect the wires done deal.



now when you add water you test the purge valve and let off some air when water starts to roll out let the handle of the purge go back to its rest position and take the screw driver or phillips that is handy grab it by the metal and boink the top of the handle dead center straight down one quick tap ...

that usually is sufficient ...



give it a couple more mins and the bell with the handle in the flat rather than in the perpendicular to the pipe it is installed as a plane of reference , will continue to fill the tank to a preselected pressure ...

now if there is a way to be in the room and turn the power on you can use your ears to hear the start of the circ or if you are real lucky there may not be much air there if after ten mins or so you haven't heard any air with the call for heat even without gauges you will notice the heat on one or the other of the pipes that are your supply or return ..

call it good and get some rest..

tomorrows another day.. when you wake up re isolate the bell because it may be they left it like that to remind you to check on it once in a while .. rather than call some one because of a water leak from the back flow preventer all over the floor ...

....

Weezbo.

jim_h

thanks

Weezbo, thanks for your detailed reply.  I need to move up the radiant heat learning curve.  The good news is, the heater elements seem to be fine because water temperature in the system went back to normal as soon as the system came on.   Outdoor temperatures went below zero last night but the heater ran normally and held the room temperature, even gained a little despite having been shut down most of the preceding day.  





I see that the heating elements are controlled by a microprocessor via a couple of big SCRs in the 2 power lines. I assume this system is smart enough to avoid running the elements wide open in air.   I can get a clamp-on current probe for my DVM and measure the draw as you suggest. 

The system is filled with a glycol mix.  One problem is that it's in a garage - no running water, and I can't use a garden hose from the house in the middle of winter.  So any procedure to top up or purge the system will have to wait until spring.



I'm studying your reply. Attached is a photo of the system.

Weezbo

Nice !

For now , this is one more thing ...there may be a way to add water ...

it is possible there is at a remote station a means and method in place.



are there any inspection panels or,

because there had to be a method and means to add the mix , some thing that resembles the bell and back flo say near the house main water line that might communicate via small hose connection to the port of another "Boiler drain/ purge valve ,

in that vicinity ?



were i them , i might have one guy in the garage watching the gauge and one manning a hose ...with the telephone doing the running and leg work.



your fluid could be a glycol mix and some water a quart or so would not create a great deal of imbalance in two year old glycol.



some air , and really low pressure is not a game buster for many boilers that can roll with very low pressure readings on a gauge ...

and if you have heat you are certainly in a much easier state of mind . and can take your time locating a remote station likely the amount of water is much less to top up the pressure .



so a small 4 second run of water thru a hose would maybe fill a large tumbler or drinking glass say , in case you have to do this from a remote with no specialty tools and or gauges at the station other than temp.



William.

jim_h

basics needed

I'm not yet able to carry out your suggested program because I can't identify the components and don't understand their functions. I need to get up to speed on the basics of the system.  Searching the web, I can find a couple of detailed installation documents, which assume prior knowledge and don't cover maintenance.   Is there some place I might find something like an introductory discussion of these systems, and how they work?  Maybe a diagram labelling things like "back flow preventer"?





Although I can't yet follow the details, I think you're saying that by opening that cap I released a bit of air and somehow reduced an air bubble that was blocking the flow.  And - that this action was sufficient to get the system working again, but there is probably more air to be removed and/or replaced with the glycol mix.   So the problem may come back and I may or may not be able to deal with it again, just by opening that little cap.   Correct?

Weezbo

hold on a moment ...

give me a few more mins to find some things useful inthe way of pictures and the like and links to parts and pieces .

yes you let the collect air out at this place .. yes it allowed it to work . yes it may likely be more in the system .



and yes it could indeed find a way to now move small pockets or bubbles of air back to the exact same spot because that is what air likes to do find some place to go easy to get out of its containment ...

brb ...





mean while google search this

boiler fast fill and backflow they have images of some common ones .



and this



boiler air purge valve look right .



https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS548US548&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=vmOiUrbbEsbWoASygoL4Dg&ved=0CFIQsAQ&biw=1206&bih=716&q=1/4%20turn%20/12%22%20gate%20valve%20and%20sweat%20ball%20valve





the 7th image is a picture of a supply return and by pass in an H formation .

some of the other pictures are of gate valves and some are combination with hose adaptors built in for purge . it has a variety of pictures so just peruse them a bit because you might see something in there and go Yah !

i have one of those valves near that Bell thingy and a Gate valve ahead of it .. or whatever and you are hot on the trail to that part of the house to take a peek at it .





ok one huge thing we now have is mental images of some of these things that we share or have in agreement ,



standing in front of your heater near the base at the right hand side you will see something that is Gold that looks like a small canister it is a type of relief or purge valve as seen in the pictures of ,

boiler air purge valve

..it has a specialty one that allows placemment in very tight quaters to an overhead plane and still function , that is the little cap it has on the top by 90 to the right .if you twist that cap some small amount of air will be released .and you can regulate the escape of air thru that port from now on..

likely it is closed as these systems seldom see vast amounts of air being made as in the case of oil fired equipment mostly because the heat differences in the individual heat sources are widely divergent .

jim_h

I'm learning

Ok I am almost following you..   but this is a closed system in a garage, no connection to the house or the water supply.



I now understand that the red tank is an Elbi diaphragm expansion tank, rated at 1 Bar (about 15 PSI) .  The little cap I unscrewed apparently covers a Schrader valve (just like a bicycle tire) used to pressurize the 'air' side of the tank.   That being the case, just removing that plastic cover shouldn't have changed anything; I never depressed the pin in the valve.  And yet for some reason the system came back to operation at that point.  System pressure reads about 15 PSI which I believe is correct..  So I'm still puzzled as to what the real problem is.  





Here are 2 photos.  One shows the 'H' at the top of the return pipe, just below the heater.  The other shows (I think) the air release/purge valve you're talking about, at the top of the 'H'.



Are you saying I could twist open that little cap, release a pffffft of air from the top of the return line, and not de-pressurize the whole system or cause some other problem?

Weezbo

yuppers ..: )

All installations must include the following items:

a. 1 pressure regulator, adjusted to 12 psi, must be installed

between the boiler and the main water supply in the building;

b. 1 expansion tank, pre-pressurized to 12 psi and of appropriate

size;

c. 1 or more automatic air purge valves;

d. 1 or more circulating pumps of appropriate capacity..



so , the pressure regulator .....being part of many installations is like a manufacturers requirement on all new installations of a similar appliance made by Dettson , in Canada.

this year this century ..

Some places allow systems where the regulation of the system may be by opening a valve to the system Xamounts of times a year . often this is in a location where there is a person who maintains mechanical rooms etc with in or on a set of buildings every day. some states may even allow it in homes where the equipment will be seen every day as in a garage say for an example.



the regulator and by pass configuration may go up over the top of the reg to aid in quickly filling a large volume of water .. it is seldom used however and caleffi for example makes a very fine regulator which would obviate the need for such a by pass. any way ,

there is some chance too that there is no regulator whatsoever , there now . as it may have been part of the fill and purge apparatus the engineers had upon their purge cart at commissioning ..

still , i think there is one some where , on the water supply at or near your boiler or main water lines by a station ...



a station could be looked at as an "Outpost" on the "Front line" ... it is near the "Field side of operations"

......allows for easier control in that area for work to be monitored and preformed with the least amount of going all the way back to the heat source etc... its more of a logistics thing and point of use type thought process, rather than say the actual best possible place for the devise.

some might not consider heated area right where you are working to be the best place they might think it belongs at the heat source in a building remotely located directly at the point of no pressure in an unheated area ...or unconditioned space .

Glycol protection some times is only considered due to possible change in frost line etc.. there might be a lot of other reasons i just spin that out there for now. why i think the valve is in your home somewhere ...warm . easy to work with , useful to someone working at the Station . in the field , it may even have another pressure gauge there ... and they know whatever the pressure would be at that point basically and have it preset ...likely only for off on manual type fill. and nothing precludes having more than one on a boiler system ...as a thought of outside the box type thinking...

....

Weezbo

what you may have done is ,

unknowingly bumped the expansion tank enough for say a diaphragm to become freed from its moorings.



if a heating system rolls at near or constant pressure , the diaphragm may not move much , some small build up within the system might moor it as it were to a spot..



sometimes taking a tank off charging it to like 28 psi ...and backing the pressure back.. one will hear Very large sounds from just that happening i consider it sound practice because it sort of scrubs the side of the tank and when you have the tank off

you can charge it to the system specs.

..



the answer to your question is Yes.

that allows some air a way Out of a system ...by opening it and letting some air get away.



here is some other considerations , say every thing rolls along at 1 bar for some years , everything is basically not doing anything strenuous , well, i have something for that ,

i call it exercise ,...

i make sure everything gets some exercise when it sees me .. on air on water on glycol on gas on oil on air on lpg even Rudolph the red nose reindeer gets exercise when i come around to see The heating system at the North Pole... *~//: )

i open and close valves run the temps up speed up circs all sorts of things that maybe have not seen any use for years ..

that way it makes things less likely to be stuck in a rut the next time around .

while it is not great to dead head a circ it certainly will make it feel the heat lol..

the simple opening and closing of a ball valve can release air to a system , loosening hte bonnet on a gate and slowly closing it half way and reopening it gradually moving mechanical pieces about , closing a ball valve three times in quick succession can change the characteristics of an air pocket in the field and at the boiler at the same time...that allows for even more air to escape and often will bring hidden problems within the system to light ...



so exercise is a good thing ..

jim_h

hmmm

So - maybe it's "just working" at this point and I should leave well enough alone.   Maybe tap the expansion tank - gently - with a rubber mallet.

 





But no real danger in opening that purge/release cap just a little bit and seeing if there's a hiss?  Should there actually be little or no air at the top of that pipe, where the value is attached?



It's been a few years, I wouldn't be surprised if I needed to find a local heating or plumbing company to do some tune-up.  The problem as always is finding one that really understands the system, not just some guy willing to tinker with it.

Weezbo

ok ,

that rubber mallet idea is prolly in more of the what i call a,

" Drop kick thru the gold post of Heaven,"

i do sometimes to make certain everything can stand up to some abuse ... i mean if it cant take that it sure wont be long in the real world...:))

my radiant heat loops have been sitting for weeks i guess with 160 psi on them for an example . a simple copper baseboard zone over a hundred and twenty , it is in a bar rest type deal it cant take that for a few days then i wont be habby with it no matter how much it exceeds code requirements .

letting off a little air may help even more buh i am keeping it there till i think i am satisfied ..

in your case a little air bled off is an ok idea. just monitor it and let it off slowly .

we are giving it a college try is where we are at , we are involved with it somewhat on a level a step above recon ...



we are actually getting info and applying it a little here and there to gain more info..

jim_h

nothing happened

Weezbo, I opened that little cap by about 1 turn and nothing happened.  



 No sound of air escaping, just silence. Nothing changed.





So at this point I guess all I know is that for a long while, the heater wouldn't turn on, and then suddenly it did.  Not much else to go on.  If I actually did something to the expansion tank that caused a change in pressure, that change was no more than 1 or 2 psi.   I don't see how a tiny change in pressure would prevent or allow the liquid from circulating and triggering the heater flow sensor.  I can see how a big air bubble might do that, but if so where is the bubble?

And of course I'm not expecting you to magically have the answers  :-) 

 

Weezbo

the small amount of air released so far is likely

to have found its way into the canister so letting some off would be good from the stand point of reducing the air in the system air can become a locking devise just as water can be tied in knots to form a dam to a raging river ,...

finding someone who has some tools and is savey in the area might not be too difficult ,

the American tankless has a numer or model name on it some where ... like mini Titan or super smurf that would be good to know because that is having some installation guide on the internet ... i consider this lash up an expensive rendition of a very eco friendly tool i made and have on hand and put to good use over the years ..

it has none of the fancy controls , or pressure balancing flow switches it is just plain as plain can be . it has a circ , temp gauge and some rudimentary temp adjustment and a couple switches that turn it off and on . it has seen more abuse , has no expansion tank, in no other way comparable yet it is one tough piece of work .

kicks out close to 30 K BTU 's or so ..

due to the different electrical controls yours is way smarter it is safe from a host of other things that might savage it ...:)

however , someone who is able to install an electric boiler , would not find it particularily difficult to trouble shoot and make air go away add water check the different parameters of devises check the amperage draws check resistances and make sure relays and transformers etc were all doing what they should be doing .

the water or fluid wont magically regenerate is all i know all letting a little air off does is change the pressure of the space the water can go if you have a lock sometimes increasing temp will allow the water to move along a bit easier , however , unlike air it really does not expand and contract the glycol changes the viscosity of course ...

when the question comes what model is it when was it installed you will have helped out right there , when you say you found some air in the system and Then it started to roll, the guy knows more, when you tell him it has no fast fill or backflow and does not connect to the potable in any way , he is sure he needs to bring along a transfer pump at least ,

any info that you give them, helps make it happen . the pressure and temp readings that helps .. in away this is very few moving parts type system ..

well, i hope this helped .

Weezbo.

SWEI

Mysterious problems

generally succumb to logical reduction. Assuming your observations are accurate (please don't take that personally, it's a science thing) there is a significant probability your problem will return.  Your job is to be armed and ready with a collection of measurements and observations which will allow you to find the root cause.

Weezbo

sonnetine.....:)

thats how a friend of mine says sometimes

sonntinne ...the circulator experiences moments where it no mojo too good ...



air



has some uncanny abilities ...lol



ever look at a glass and see beacoup air bubbles little pinner ones clinging to the sides of a glass? ok

there it is lol...

jim_h

oh yeah

In the course of 30 years of work on computer hardware and software, I learned that a problem which is not understood is certain to recur.  To believe otherwise is folly.





There is so little information visible here.  There's no sight glass, no flow meter, no error code from the heater's microprocessor.   Flying blind.  This is how big money gets spent on shotgun troubleshooting. 

Weezbo

with out a question ...

the fact that we managed to divine a cure is far from where Jim intends to let the rules of the road leave him lol..



He is way savey ....

he may find a contractor here ,

http://www.heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor.



or perhaps at

uponor 2 http://www.uponor-usa.com/Find-an-Installer.aspx..



or the Taco web site tech support guys might know of someone ,

say Minneapolis and you might get someone who is like massive energy guy named John , lol he could probably navigate the entire area around you with a blindfold on : )) really .he knows lots of folks in the area .





and they may show up check a few things and voila! done deal .



it has yet to be resolved , he simply has managed to recon it a bit and it is working again he realizes my magic hat is at the haberdasher's too, and is certain that to find the cause and set right , will take some more hands on effort.



we call that getting a live body to the scene...

or some spiritual help and Bring your tools ... we Have Plenty Coffee!

now where have we heard that before today ?....



*~//:)

jim_h

still running

It's still running, and holding it's own.  The temperature here in Minneapolis went to 10 below last night, the garage temperature dropped another 2 degrees, and the pump is running constantly, but that's not really unusual, it can take a couple of days to bring the slab temperature back up after a cold snap



It's running quietly, no gurgling sounds.  It all seems normal, but I think it used to catch up quicker (after cold snaps) in the past. 

Does a closed radiant system like this lose efficiency over time, and if so how?  Does air accumulate in the glycol mix?  

Weezbo

Jim ,

what model is the American tankless does it say have some words indicating something other than American Tankless ?

is there some KW rating and GPM written on anything that you can see?



the control is really simple in a way ,



we use design temps depending of some variables , here is an example , an aircraft hanger , one large area houses tons of metal and others house A.I. , parts men , office help ,



those parts that have people , can run off of one control . with one set of parameters the part with the aeroplane another .



sometimes they have two completely diffierent controlers , folks , that are in an office might benifit by the office being a little sharper in its respond time than the bucket of bolts.

so in the people area the designe temp might be 45 below so the thing that can be done is to make the control hurry up the heat a bit , so you can tell it it is 25 below instead .

then there is an adjustment for minor technicalities ,



often these are smaller 3 degree 5 degree changes ..these are handy in that it the heat could be adjusted to the office with the hard a$$ guy who built the company , and some receptionists office , one likes to think e is comfortable at working mans temp in his office ... the receptionist folks open and close the door to outside and she does not like the cold lingering about and wants heat to hurry up ..

so easy , turn up the thermostat , change the outside design temp to make it think its colder quicker , and the small adjustment bump it in that direction one notch , or step of 3 degrees warmer water in that area.



.you have a single area and usually empty or inhabited by a car that doesnt snivle o complain daily... humans though feel these temps and it is very real to them ...



so the promix has an oal button ? you could change it because you are now the "Inhabitant" of the area not just the car .



if your garage has one pipe going into the slab and one pipe coming out , that it .. then , the thing is by increasing the response time you make very small adjustments over time to make it seem warmer sooner.

jim_h

model 110

A sticker says it's model 110,  11kw.   Apparently that's not a current model, but I found the specs here:



http://www.e-tankless.com/products



The pump has a 3 position switch and has been set to 'medium'.  When the heater wasn't activating, I tried moving that switch to 'high', thinking an increased flow rate might trigger the sensor.  No luck.  





My system is more complicated than you suspect.  I have a garage with an attached workshop.  The heater is in the shop.  There are 4 zones (loops) in the slab and 2 thermostats, one in the garage (stall) side and one in the shop.  Currently I am only heating the shop, not the stall.  



I used to do some work with temperature controllers so I realize this system may be accounting for the huge mass of concrete it's trying to move, and deliberately doing some things to avoid overshoot and undershoot, which might include letting the temperature fall a few degrees below the setpoint for periods of time.  That stuff doesn't bother me.   But somehow it got into a state where the heater didn't activate at all for a long period of time, despite the water temperature (70) being way below the setpoint  (90) and that probably can't be right.



I checked Amazon.com but there's no "Radiant Heat For Dummies" in publication.

Weezbo

this is how it can be ,

can you see the shop header ?

what likelihood of getting some close up pic of that?

gauge near by or on the header?



Well , Dammbit Jimmie we ought to write one lol..



ok ok : ))



back at the plan ,...temp drop thru a heat source equipped with adjustable temp , set flow rate.... with pump control . ok



.Maximum Flow Rate in Gallons Per Minute at 105F Output temp

Incoming Water Temp: Flow Rate (GPM)

40F 1.3 GPM

45F 1.4 GPM

50F 1.5 GPM

55F 1.6 GPM

60F 1.8 GPM

65F 2.0 GPM

70F 2.3 GPM

75F 2.7 GPM

* this chart is based on 240v input.

jim_h

photos

Speaking more correctly, I have 2 zones each including 2 loops, so 4 valves total. In the photo the middle 2 valves are for the shop, which is Zone 1.   The system was not running when this photo was taken, so no valves are active.  I see the nice pink color in the Pex tubing which tells me it's full of glycol.



The temperature/pressure gauge is on the hot side just below the heater and the pump. It reads 16-17 psi in operation.  That's normal, isn't it?  Even if it went a bit lower, it is not obvious to me how that would be an immediate problem. I am thinking the real reason for pressurizing the system  is so that any air that gets in, or is forced out of the fluid, can be expelled through some sort of valve. Is it possible that the system purged itself automatically at some point and is now back to normal?

RobG

Radiant Heating Info

Go to the "Shop" tab on this site and purchase the book "Hydronic Radiant Heating". You will find it in the hot water heating book section. It is written for the layman and is a fun read. It will aid you immensely in understanding your system. (and help keep this site going)

Rob



How did you end up with a beta test system in your home?

What were they testing?

Who owned the house when the system was installed?

jim_h

beta

RobG,



I just ordered that book, thanks.



A few years ago I decided to build a new garage/shop on a new slab.   I had a relative who worked for Uponor here in Minnesota, and it happened that at that time they wanted a test site for a new product - an all-in-one system they were calling "Heat In A Box".  So I was just extremely lucky. They gave me a plan, my contractor installed the Pex, the Uponor guys installed and set up the heater.  They had a TED on it for a while and monitored power consumption, and fixed a couple of problems early on.  It has worked well since then.  Today of course, I'm on my own, which is ok, I just need to learn how it works and maybe identify a local shop for repairs if needed.

Weezbo

one more item ,

the numbers on the circulator pump ,

is it an 18-su , ?



these circulators start UPS 15- Xx ,

and go 15 series- number- type- connector

18- steel - union its like short hand designations . each has different use , and head and gpm flow , and with the 3 speeds they can encompass single speed varieties that show within a spectrum .



or might go UPS 26 - or what ever for a number ...the letters after it mean things to me so write that down too because my eyes cannot make out the numbers from the pictures ...



my little pinner friend Mop , is in need of some help . her foot is bleeding , so i will go ask my friend for some help she maybe able to see Mop today , some problem like a boil or something near the dew paw ... if she can see her right away then Mop might be able to come home again today .

a quick phone call revealed that it may be something i can spend some time at to help and normal business hours Monday might be the ticket. because her vet tech gave me a lot of useful information. i was studying vet science before coming to Alaska ...so i gave the tech useful information , and got useful information in return .

i am going to go start the van any way ...and go do a recon on some jobs i have already had inspected ...and see if i am happy with them.

be back in a couple hours.

or less...

Weezbo

as my van warms up

the flow rates on that particlar pump might be worthwhile information ,

the far right of both the header ,Jim , have a place to add water or glycol ... or purge ..

circulators that dead head for any reason can quickly chop up an air bubble into many many little air bubbles and that can then blow by or past certain types of air removal devices ,

a circ that stops flowing because a set point is reached and shuts down after one of these "Events" could block it from restarting even if the control for the zones made a call for heat to the circ the heat source might not think it should go based upon its own control logic and temp /pressure sensors .

so the pump might be spinning away yet the heater may have some limiting device with in i have not checked on that... pinner Dawg is sleepers ..:)

jim_h

pump

Grundfos UPS15-58 RU-130

jim_h

woosh

At the moment the heater finally activated (for whatever reason) there was a big wooosh that lasted a few seconds.  Since then, the system is silent.   That wooosh  had to be air, right? EIther in the form of bubbles - foam - or a contiguous air gap.   Somehow things got moving again and that air went somewhere.  



 Whatever caused this correction, it wasn't me removing the protective cap from the Schrader valve on the expansion tank - it was either coincidence that it happened then, or I shook something around, causing the air to move or combine.

 

My suspicions are starting to focus on that air purge/release valve, with the little cap on the side, which did nothing when I released it.   I need to find out what that valve is supposed to be doing - maybe it isn't doing it.  



No doubt it's all in the book I just ordered.

RobG

Expansion Tank

It is possible that your expansion tank bladder may have blown out releasing air into the system. Try removing the cap and putting a tire pressure gauge on it. If it reads zero or water comes out of it, you need a new tank (not expensive or difficult to replace). give it a shot and let us know.

Rob

jim_h

soon

I'll do that once this extreme cold lets up.



Can the system run safely without a functioning expansion tank?

Weezbo

my tool is at least 3 K more

and with slabs as much as 3500 sq ft and multiple headers i have run it for weeks with out an expansion tank . understand it is because i am on the job early leave late and purge air everywhere ...

.....

the day is still young , so looking at the numbers and what not still because we just made it home ..

those numbers for the circ seem to me to mean that this grundfoss has an upward temp of 130 ... and the Head and flow is not in any of my immediate books on hand..



there are some circs manufacturers make say rather than stock on the shelves ...i know this sounds different buh there is a reason for that .

....

so give me a moment to wind down ..and get a cup of coffee.

*~//: )



i am not certain of this however it is possible this is a very high head circ at like 22 @4gpm.

how why ? activation is low on the Tankless . .25 ... the R is what has me sorta thinking Radiant or Reset...and for some reason Reset seems the more reasonable ... because Rotated Union is not meaningful as in Rotated Flange..



i have been thinking about this for a while and on my way to town i considered that the system is designed with more than one bar maybe closer to 18 psi to 20 psi ..

.. so i made a note to myself to check the tank specs when i got home because i really liked those tanks when i first saw them and asked plenty questions ,

just none availablle here ... not that some of the wholesalers did not try their best for me it just was not in the cards as they say.

...

Point of Use

Power (KW's @ 240v) 27 KW 24 KW 22 KW 18 KW 16.5 KW 14.5 KW 11 KW

BTU Equivalent (BTU's) 92,259 81,888 75,064 61,416 54,592 47,768 37,532

Max Temp Rise @ 1 GPM 140 F 140 F 140 F 122 F 112 F 99 F 75 F

Max Temp Rise @ 2 GPM 95 F 82 F 75 F 61 F 56 F 49 F 37 F

Max Temp Rise @ 3 GPM 64 F 54 F 50 F 41 F 37 F 33 F 25 F

Heating Elements 3 heating elements 2 heating elements

Dimensions 16" x 17" x 3.25" 16" x 13.5" x 3.25"

Weight 14 lbs 12 lbs

Warranty Lifetime 100% Parts Replacement Warranty

Energy Efficiency 98.5% - 99.5% energy efficient

Activation Flow Rate 0.25 GPM

Materials Copper Heat Exchanger / Aluminum Casing

Pipe Fittings 3/4" Standard Pipe (Compression Fittings)/ ASTM B-88

Operating Range 5 - 150 PSI (40+ PSI Recommended)

Voltage Requirements 208-240 volts/single phase

Frequency 50 - 60 Hz

Max. Amps

(@ 240 volts) 113 Amps 100 Amps 92 Amps 78 Amps 67 Amps 58 Amps 46 Amps

Breakers Recommended* 1X125 Amp 1X125 Amp 1X125 Amp 1X80 Amp 1X80 Amp 1X70 Amp 1X60 Amp

Minimum amps to home 200 Amps 200 Amps 200 Amps 125 Amps 100 Amps 100 Amps 100 Amps

Recommended Wiring* #2 Gauge #4 Gauge #6 Gauge

Protection Thermal Hi-Limit Switch (Automatic Reset) &

Microprocessor Controlled Hi-Limit



so this is sorta useful info ....

it speaks of many things ..

that headder is able to be "Dialed" for differential pressure balancing formulas ...

and it has demarcations that can be read .. i had my gert magnification glass with the 10 X inset lens and i still cannot make out numbers of the circ not that i do not believe they were correct just that i also look for other clues on the face of the circ.



right now if the flow rate on the headder is apprehended it would narrow down one side of an arbitrary equasion i am considering... so if the little clear glass/plastic balance valves say are set at .5 GPM or what ever and the temp reads 71 the room reads 70 and the supply reads 82 and the target is 90 ... we start to get a better Grip on the details ,

it is possible to also do something that will tell us even more information without undoing what you have going at the moment , namely heat.

.

the heating element is doing . and we have the circ moving fluid . propy glycol for 10 below you were saying ... that helps in the numbers game as well.

....... i will look for internal pieces to the tankless ... i installed two in a beauty saloon a while back with mixers/ anti scald on them and the woosh sound occurred there after purging air from some test that is required prior to operation and inspected by the city.

..........



the product code date says it was made in 08 21 weeks into the year , BR is Bronze

so then the RU thing is like red herring lol...

oh i hit the magnification button on the picture and then i could read it lol...

thats funny.

anyway it is not in my book ,

10- 6 11 -4 ....

jim_h

pressure

You said :   "i have been thinking about this for a while and on my way to town i considered that the system is designed with more than one bar maybe closer to 18 psi to 20 psi .."







Interesting - pressure is now 16 psi - are you suggesting that originally it was higher, and should be restored?

I did some Googling and now I understand the automatic air eliminator/ release valve on the return line.  Maybe it was slow to do its job but eventually released some air that had accumulated, and that's when the system returned to life.  Maybe it just needed to be jarred a little.

The expansion tank makes a "bong" when struck with a knuckle, doesn't sound like it's full of water.

Weezbo

see , thats the thing ,

i think in my mind there is air in the system , and that it needs to be eliminted and water put into it ...yet try as i might there is insufficent information of a more technical nature ,

so , if you are with me ...

we can open , turn on the zone from the unheated garage , and carefully monitor the pressure gauge , this fluid should more accurately reflect previous pressure because for the simple fact it has not be turned on ..when it shut off it was whatever it was at that moment...so then the immediate mix of the two streams should give some indication of a change ... this condition we can let run for like three mins and call it good.



here is my thought ,

in three mins it is back at the boiler ...

sooner than that a change occurs ,



i really would feel more comfortable being there with a transfer pump ,

and a co2 cartridge with blow out gun and hand pump /floor type bycycle pump,

a new caleffi check valve and air purge ....

that would be the quickest way to do this and , that , right then and there ...

,

because .... if it Quit on the garage that is currently cold cold...

rather than simply being turned off by the zone valve ....

then , while we may discover one thing, making things happen ,



we may discover other things that make it not happen .



or create the original condition..



or remove some of the problem to the cold garage ,



and while that may be what i would want to be happening

allowing some small micro bubbles a new path to freedom which it would take post haste ,

( just because that is what gas or air wants to do get away and find some way out) ...

there may be air trying to escape from there in even more abundant amounts ...

that is the nature of trouble shooting things from a distance ..

what tools , to have , minimum is water supply ,

long enough hose to reach from headder to the supply outlet ,

a means to turn it off and on at a distance and keep it flowing until it is turned off and dismantled from the hose bib...



a tyre gauge with real tight gradients is also a great tool to have on hand.



......... The prudent thing would be to hold off until Monday ....

Hopefully , someone in your area can stop by,



thing is this though , The info specifically for this circ i do not have ,

my book is printed back in 2007 i have a new one someplace ... buh that is not the end of it ,

the tank , where i am the wholesalers said they could not find one ,

that was years back ....though i have yet to see one here ...



it was nt until this year a Bumbl bee showed and i inquired about buying three over three years ago before the give away contest of the pinne r yellow car

Wilo circs the manufacturers said would be on the shelves on the east coast and we all waited years for them to materialize , when i suggested the Grundfoss Alfa and offered to buy three of them ,...

that took like 6 or 7 years to happen : )))

so if thats how the supply chain works to the Coldest most energy conscious place outside of Antarctica and Greenland .... i hate to think what may only be able to be found ,

other than by corporations with team of engineers who have things made specifically for them , first .... ,

in your area ...



Weezbo

Weezbo

With your multi meter ,

and some info now , you could likely make adjustments .. one time a few years back ,

i found a problem on some new lighting ,, and problems with the boiler etc ,... the pole mounted Step down transformer had lost a few "Pegs" changing the voltage ...it is these types of things that make one set of problems show,

because ,

unless you test you only guess ... , so what we do is usually , take all kinds of readings on equipment right where it is when we do our work right when we show up ...

then systematically go through things , most of if not all of us think in our minds are there any doors open or windows is there any holes that might communicate from this area to another and a variety of other considerations because sometimes there in lies the problem ... often in large shops , the devil is in the details ...



....

Symptom Possible cause Solution

No hot water





– circuit breakers off

– safety thermal cut-out tripped

– not enough flow rate to activate unit

– turn circuit breakers on

– reset safety thermal cut-out

– clean filter screen at unit

– clean faucet aerator or shower head

Not enough hot water – filter screen clogged – clean filter screen at unit

Water not hot enough



– water flow rate too high



– voltage too low

– reduce water flow rate until power light on front

cover stops blinking

– supply correct voltage to unit



in your case i think you have managed to narrow it down from the electrical side ,

i wonder , if there was any start up info left , that the engineers team may have left , describing : G.P.M , head pressure of the system , design temp , or , WWSD temp , viscosity of fluid , max and min s , approximate energy use or any set of formulas with resolution , because , it might provide us with some further insight ...

they might have left it near by in some envelope describing some of the parts and pieces ...just for future reference ..

any information you find hand written might be just the ticket . in stead of BTU;s they may have resolved it in KW for example ..



"Calories are real Jewels"

an old-timer , once, told me ...

jim_h

reality

The thing I'm up against is that almost any sort of test  could require topping up and pressurizing the system, and that's not  possible here in the winter, because I can't run a garden house - through an open door - in these temperatures.  In the future I may learn how to do this, or even invest in a pump so the hose isn't needed. 



On the other hand - the system seems to be working more or less normally at this point. It's typically a degree or 2 below the setpoint, which - according to the literature for the Uponor thermostat - is the expected behavior.  The controller treats the setpoint as a maximum and tries to avoid overshoot - so as the temperature approaches the setpoint, upward progress gets slower.. 





 I do  have a design drawing for the system - not the mechanical/electrical part unfortunately, just the pex/manifold circulatory system -  which includes the table shown in this photo.  Also on the drawing is the note "30% glycol" which may or may not have been observed when the system was filled - I think the actual percentage might be higher..   

This occurred to me - it looks like the flow rate is the sum of 4 indivual loops.  So if I'm only using 2 loops, should the pump perhaps be on 'low' rather than 'medium'? 

Weezbo

Jim,

this is excellent . you ought to bag computer frustrations and get into Hydronic heating,



: )



the pay isn't as good buh there is a lot of satisfaction in our work .



you have tapped into the magic touch , you system does not have a great deal of fluid in it .



...Rehau pex and Wirsbo Hepex are A.-1. products .

as a quick number 1 gallon of fill is needed for each 100' of 1/2 " tubing .

or to tidy that number a bit .92 gallons for Hepex.