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new mod/con w/indirect question mockup

cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Member Posts: 24
sorry for the double post, but I just realized I should have posted here; admins may delete the original on the main wall

Hello all, it's me again.

I know some of you are probably tired of hearing about my intentions instead of actions, but I am just about to do the install. I have designed my hopeful setup in a 3D modeling software to help me better visualize how it will all be put together and assist with assembly. I have uploaded a video of an overview of the setup (seen here) and added a few of the screen caps to this post, also see this link for better resolution. Due to tight quarters, I had to make the most of what I had and hopefully you friendly and knowledgeable folks can point out a few easier or more efficient way to do this. For clarity, the copper/pink is all 1" copper line, while the blue is either 3/4 or 1/2". Since Burnham supplies the boiler loop pump, I am really only waiting on the sizing of the pump for the HWH and the system pump, but they're very close in physical sizing that I could mock them up in my model. Here's a link to the higher resolution mockups and plans here.

Refresher: replacing oil-fired combi boiler, cast iron recessed rads on main living floor, cast iron bases in basement, currently all on one zone, combined single loop. Installing new Burnham Alpine 080 w/50gal indirect. Currently setup for single zone, I will be adding the indirect tank and eventually another zone or 2. Roughly 72K heat loss calc, with poor shell criteria (slider windows, poor insulation in attic, etc.), hopeful to fix that over time. Northeastern NJ, see floor plans also attached.

I have followed Burnham's "Near Boiler Piping - Heating Plus Indirect Water Heater" schematic from the Alpine manual, and I think I have all of their specified components included in my mockup. In a previous thread, I had used an example that an HVAC specialist and shown me, but using @BadgerBoilerMN's criticism of overpumping, I decided to go with a system circulator with zone valves as opposed to pumps for each zone (especially since I currently will only have a single zone). I've shown a few Webstone flanges and other Webstone valves since I'm tight on space; while they're not price friendly, they do save me on valuable space.

As always, your comments and criticisms are welcome.


  • ChrisChris Member Posts: 3,056
    What Software Is That

    Nice software. What is it and where can I find it. Might want to keep this in your pocket in case you need it. See the Alpine article. I wouldn't be zoning out rather I'd be adding thermostatic valves, use an Alpha, run constant circulation and call it a day.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Member Posts: 24

    The software is only SketchUp and there is a free version. I built or scaled a lot of the components to meet the cut sheets of the parts I plan on purchasing, but there is a 3D warehouse you can download from. Google used to own SketchUp but I believe it was recently sold off to this company called Trimble. You can download a free, limited version at

    Regarding my design. Thanks for the input. I'm an architect by trade and not a hydronic engineer. Would you mind providing a little more insight into what you cited? I planned on adding radiant heat for the basement (see plans in o.p.) if that makes any difference in your thoughts. Is my physical design logical? What exactly is an "alpha"? Thank you again for your insight.
  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Member Posts: 24
    Indirect Hot Water expansion

    I am wondering if I need a separate expansion tank for my indirect hot water heater in addition to the expansion tank I have shown on my system? Either that, or do I upsize the expansion tank to satisfy both the heating system and the hot water?
  • ZmanZman Member Posts: 3,476

    I did post in your other thread suggesting a simpler boiler.

    You should size your expansion tank for all the water on the boiler side, including the boiler water in the indirect.

    If you home has a check valve where the domestic water enters the house( most new ones do), you will need a seperate potable water expansion tank on the DHW.

    Chris is suggesting individual TRV controls on the radiators, The Grundfos "Alpha" is nice delta p ecm circulator. Trv's are a nice option.

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Member Posts: 24


    You should size your expansion tank for all the water on the boiler side, including the boiler water in the indirect.

    I will do so, thanks

    Chris is suggesting individual TRV controls on the radiators, The Grundfos "Alpha" is nice delta p ecm circulator. Trv's are a nice option.

    ahh, I am familiar with those valves. Unfortunately I do not have the time (nor the money) to remoe all my existing valves for each of my rads
  • cyrus_pinkneycyrus_pinkney Member Posts: 24

    admins, I would love if you could merge this thread with the other that I started on "THE MAIN WALL"

    R Mannino's fine work and copied essentially his layout, including switching from an Burnham Alpine to a Viessmann Vitodens 100.

    A video of it can be seen here:

    and still shots can be seen here:

    Thank you for the pointers again Ron, you've been a tremendous help and I hope you don't mind me letting others know. Thanks to anyone else who might want to chime it.
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