code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?

Gordy

Shooting from the hip

Running a 35* delta on the cadet would be close to the same head loss as .6 gpm on 200' runs of 1/2" pex if the pex is 12" on center that should give you 25 btus a sf.



Can you confirm loop lengths, number of loops, and tube spacing Morpho?



What I'm trying to see is if it is possible to eliminate one pump, and not plumb primary secondary.



If not two bumble bees is still an even swap from your present circ. if we could get it down to one bumble bee it would not make you cringe so much.



You could also buy a small indirect, and make your domestic hot water with the cadet at a higher efficiency than the instantaneous water heater you have.



Got a Craig's list in your neck o the woods?

morpho

Gordy

Cool.

That makes perfect sense about the primary secondary.

I'll read a bit about it.



The ∆T of 35º…..my understanding was that 10º was "ideal" (of coarse each situation is different I'm sure)



Okay:

Actual floor space 897

Including under the wall frame 960 (no Pex under the wall)



One zone

4 curcuits:



227'

222'

226'

236'



Total of 911'



12" OC -- 10" in a few key places.



Yup we have craigslist….sort of…The closest main centre is 2.5 hours away where most selling activity is located.

morpho

this is the layout

if it matters at all

morpho

ignore the

PDF it is cut off

Gordy

Delta

10* for radiant floors for the heating loop.(primary). 35 at the boiler loop (secondary). The higher the delta at the boiler the more efficiency gained.



10* gives more even floor temps. You could go higher if your willing to sacrifice some foot comfort.



I'm thinking you need primary secondary anyway. Your headloss for the flow rates needed to maintain a 15* delta at the floor( a little sacrifice in comfort under foot) would be borderline bumble bee material. To close to call. Maybe SWEI has a different opinion.

morpho

Ya...

The foot comfort is pretty important to my wife. 10º differential is much better.

If this requires a two pumps or slightly less energy efficient ones, so be it. I can make up the power loss elsewhere I guess.

SWEI

Primary pump

For that boiler can be one of the little B&G ecocirc e3 Vario pumps (also sold by Laing Thermotech.)  You'll have to add a couple of 1/2" union fittings to make them serviceable in a system, but their power draw is nearly nonexistent and the fully adjustable speed control lets you dial in the ∆T you want.  You won't get the dynamic ∆T control of a Bumble Bee, but you also won't be forcing the 'Bee to work at or near the bottom of its curve.  You'll probably spend about the same as a cast iron 'Bee but a lot less than the stainless one.

morpho

B&G

Hmmm?

Now I am trying to figure out how to plumb it so this pump comes through the wall in the kitchen because that thing looks cool.



Is this pump going to be a problem because of the non o2 pex?



The electrical numbers look exactly what I need.



Thanks for pointing me to this one.

Eastman

WAFFLE

I realize the Cadet has a SS HX, but is there anything in that boiler that would prematurely fail in this context?

Gordy

What kills

That style boilers heat exchanger is mineral deposits from continuous makeup water.

SWEI

ecocirc

is a brass pump, typically used for DHW recirc.  No concerns with O2.

morpho

I wish companies

would be smarter about product naming.

It gets confusing.

The ecocirc label seems to cover several models.

The recirc brass pump is the first one I found.

But then I found a model that has the same name, but is different.

I think it's the second one.

morpho

Gordy…..that is

great news, because the likelihood I would be feeding any water into this is nil.

I don't have it to spare!

is there an ideal water to fill the system with? Floor and boiler.

De-mineralized, ph neutral something or other?

SWEI

ecocirc e-series

is the one on the left.  The smaller of the two will work as a primary pump on the CDL040, assuming your loop has minimal head or (even better) you use a hydraulic separator.



The image on the right is an ecocirc 19-14.  It has a cast iron volute and essentially the same curve as the other residential smart circs (Grundfos Alpha, Wilo Stratos, Taco Bumble Bee.)



Just to make it confusing:

B&G sells it as an ecocirc e3-4

Laing sells it as an ecocirc E1



Whatever brand it is, you want the Vario version.  Avoid the "UCT with Ball & Check Valve"  version for this application or buy the larger model.  The additional friction it adds will drop the flow too low on that boiler at high fire.



I *REALLY* wish ITT would offer these in heating trim here in the US.

morpho

brian

Brian I'm sorry.

You wrote a bunch of stuff and I missed it.



Yes there is something to be said for RobG's logic as well..other than I will keep having to do and undo and redo the plumbing and gas lines. I think regardless of what I do I am going to lose….except whatever I do I win. I will have heat. And in this climate f you don't have heat you die. So $600 every 4 years for a tank…or $1200 every 20…or $2500 every 15…it's all pretty cheap in the end considering freezing to death is the alternative. (trying to rationalize spending money is not my forte'. I have to put it into life and death terms)



I see the point you make about the ci boiler being way more robust etc. But there simply isn't room for the boiler and a tank. I measured it out and there just isn't the space. I could add on to the cottage, but combine that with the cost of the ci and the tank and it would probably cost as much as replacing a mod con after 10 years. And after 20 years or so, I'll probably be taking my walker into the woods to go "grizzly bear wrestling" and a new boiler will be the least of my concerns.



The price for propane has been about $1.00 per litre and bulk is currently about $0.49.



I actually did consider the multi 100 tanks idea, but it all starts to become ridiculous after a while and I'm ridiculous enough as is. (tons of stupid things I'm doing right now on top of this. (I'm currently building my own air to air heat exchanger)

Eastman

Pretty sure

the tank will last longer than 4 years.  It has an anode.  You don't use it very much.  And it's a closed system with comparatively little o2.  It certainly isn't rusting from the inside out.

RobG

I Think

I still think that the vented space heater is the best way to go.

1. You will never freeze to death if your solar power goes out.

2. You can still use the water heater as your heat source with non-O2 barrier tubing. Remember, a water heater is glass lined to operate using oxygenated domestic water. All you have to add to the existing piping is a bronze pump and mixing valve.

3. It should last as long as any standard water heater and the vented gas room heater will get you through inspection.

4. When smaller mod-cons come out (which they will)  you can get one that is properly sized.

5. Back-up heat is a necessity where you live, and the mod-con will break down someday and you might have to wait a few days for parts for a technician

JMHO,

Rob

Gordy

I believe the cadet

Is pretty darn close in size by the time you figure the output it's 40k input.



Some kind of back up still is not a bad idea no matter the true heat source though.



Morpho I don't know your water quality, but initial fill of distiller water would be of benefit .

morpho

Stop messing with my head Rob!

I still think the tank is a good idea, and as logical and safe as any of the other options.



The cost savings on gas for a boiler are enough to make me crunch the numbers and weigh the positives and the negatives. Then throw in the space savings, the easier acceptance by code and maybe just the fact I just want to put this all behind me and move on.



I have my eye on a little wood stove for backup heat, or maybe I'll rebuild my rocket mass heater…that thing worked great.



I do like the idea of the gas room heater though. I was reading a bit about them last night and they are pretty cool. I'm surprised I haven't seen one before. Had I known about them before I built, I probably would have put one in when I was still flush with cash.



But in the end I need to make a decision and I'm going to try a boiler. And why not?….if it goes sideways…..in the end... whatever… I have wasted money on plenty of things in my day…anybody want to buy a pet rock?….how about a hula hoop?….Ford Pinto?….cheap.

morpho

I think the cadet

is pretty much the right size as well. Hoping anyway.



My water quality is unknown to me as well. I collect rainwater in a pond and filter it through a biosand filter and into a cistern. I have no indication of mineral deposits on any of the faucets,but I will fill it with distilled, no problem.

I know a guy.

morpho

So

if this is the flow and head loss with a 35º ∆tT of the cadet.

morpho

and

this is the curve for the little bronze headed circa pump (if I have the right one)

SWEI

which works

as long as you keep your loop friction low (which is not particularly difficult for 2.1 GPM.)

morpho

then

it seems to fit pretty well, with a bit of room for adjustment.

The fittings on the pump are all 1/2" How does going from 3/4" to 1/2" back to 3/4" effect things?



One more question. SWEI…you mentioned a hydraulic separator….is this the same as a low loss header?

Eastman

loop friction

you mean no primary/secondary?

SWEI

Friction

in the primary loop.

Zman

How much..

I'll take the hula hoop.

No thanks on the rock and the pinto.

This has been a great thread, thank you.

It is unusual when what is usually the worst design (water heater) is actually the best option.

Sorry about the code.

Carl

morpho

how would it

go sideways with friction?

being forced to reduce fittings?

Too many bends?

SWEI

Mix the two

Lochinvar specifies 3/4" for the primary loop.  You'll have to reduce or bush your way to 1/2" at the pump.  Look up "equivalent length" to figure your fittings.



Hydraulic Separator = Low Loss Header



Think again about one of those little Rinnai Energy Savers at half the purchase cost of the naked boiler (before any pumps, valves, fittings, or labor.)

Eastman

if the near boiler plumbing turned

into some kind of elaborate undersized mess, then the head loss thru the boiler and primary loop would be off.  As it is  (and do read the manual)  the quoted head loss typically includes x feet of y diameter primary piping.

morpho

well

there goes my plan to make a mandala pattern!

morpho

How would a "wall furnace"

make the bare concrete feel?

morpho

the hoop is yours

I'll throw in the pinto…brown with brown rust accents.

The hula hoop and the pinto when combined are a total chick magnet.

morpho

Man Alive!

Now even SWEI is telling me to ditch the boiler!

morpho

glad you find the thread fun

I am to please.

I think the people posting here are amazing actually.

Not a single poster on here was anything less than genuine in trying to offer advice about what might work and have been unbelievably monk like with all my dumb questions.

Amazing…

Eastman

the delta T and steam threads are the best

For what it's worth, I also wouldn't be quick to launch into this project.  The biggest issue seems to be the price your paying for fuel.   If we take your 400 dollar bulk propane annual cost estimate at face value, how much more could you really save with a modcon?  Even if the space heating efficiency doubles, (which it very well could) what are you saving after you factor in your other gas appliances?  --170 a year abouts?  That's about a fifteen year minimum payback with additional capital risk.



I don't want to encourage you or anyone to violate Canadian codes, but certainly you should be aware that the best choice is not necessarily the right choice.

Gordy

eastman

If his only choice is LP why not?  Wood Looked pretty distant on the property.

Oil is going to be more than LP.

Dont over think it.

archibald tuttle

good news for modern morpho

it is hard for me to wrap my mind around the idea of space mattering, but that reveals my own predilection and isn't meant to impeach yours. and the mod con is a good choice for space if a compromise on electricity.



if it is of any comfort I do have good news for you i didn't have yesterday.



 i just bought a used munchkin (last gen modcon by Heat Transfer Products, was popular entry level modcon also sold as Peerless Pinnacle)  from a guy who has installed and serviced several hundred of these units in massachusetts.  i, like you, am on propane and he was selling the one in his house (think he just put in a lochinvar actually. his company shifted over after trying weil-mclain and not liking them.  so that is an endorsement for the lochinvar product.



but there is more good news.  he had some great info from almost a decade servicing these munchkins (which are stainless fire tubes) in both NG and propane use.  his experience is that the propane units stay cleaner and don't need the same extent or timing of cleaning as NG.  Most of my applications are NG in houses without radiant that operate abouve condensing temps so i don't have that kind of base of experience. i was lucky to be buying this from someone who knew a lot about them and had had so much experience. (also a good reason as you can see to hang out on the wall)



more good news,  50 cents a liter is a damn good price for your consumption level. I pay 50 cents a quart and have three one thousand gallon tanks on the farm and that is the cheapest i can find around here, i shop annually and buy two fills a year.



and thanks for your response to me last note. i have a bad habit of writing novels about this stuff, which is revelatory - vis the fellow who i think was asking not only you but maybe maybe everyone what we got out of this thread - of the extent to which i use the forum to impart ideas, but also to crystalize my own.



I know if i just sent the shortest cleverest quips i could, my 'ratings' would move up and honestly i would help people more because i do have a few reasonable ideas. but i and youse guys are stuck with my loquacious self. i don't write to make you regret your decision but i am often a strong exponent of not giving in to convention. that said, once you came up without barrier tubing and with low temp. coupled with low btu requirements and limited space i can see why the mod con started to seem 'sensible'. I was actually glad to get another unsolicited recommendation for the lochinvar.  as you might be able to tell, i live in the land of searchtempest.com (the way to piss craigslist off and search multiple craigslists at once), and buy used equipment.  our climate isn't life and death and i keep electric radiators and propane space heaters around to cover breakdowns while i find slightly well used equipment.  your location is particularly nettlesome and although there have been plenty of brand new units that manifest problems folks seem to have focused you on a solid entry level unity that is highly recommended.  and if you ever do have problems i think you will find a lot of help here (but maybe you want to drain that hot water heater and put it in the cold storage in case you need to grab the pex tools and slam it back in in a hurry some dark winter night -  of course I'm not sure where you'd get the 40 gallons to fill it.  i guess you melt snow . . .



or maybe you want to keep an eye for a space heater as a back up.  there are units that can run with no electricity (spread it a little more if the fan is on but still get eer done even if the power goes out.  you can go with a standing pilot and only light it when you're not there, or i think there are even some that have batter ignition or you could put an uniterruptilbe power supply on the ignition (you might have to invade the wiring space and separte the line in to the fan and the ignition so you don't run the power supply down running the fan if you're out of juice). I got some nice 22,000 btu ventless units with standing pilots out of home depot at the end of the season one year for 75 bucks so if you're smarting from mod con investment, keep your eyes peeled.



absolute best of luck and don't be strange  . . . eer a stranger



brian

SWEI

Informed decisions

Are unfortunately rare in the world of residential and small commercial HVAC in North America.  I really wish that were not the case, but the combination of clueless contractors and unnaturally cheap natural gas has distorted things pretty severely of late.



Apologies for the surfeit of theories and proposed solutions here.  Most of us are quite practical when it gets to decision time, but there is a LOT of information backing up those decisions.  If you ask us to explain, we generally oblige -- often missing the "eyes glazing over" cue which would be obvious if we were all in the same room.



I'm going to guess that the CDL040 and associated hardware is going to cost you at least 3X what one of those modulating Rinnai Space Savers would, exclusive of labor.  As Eastman points out below, the simple payback on this flat out sucks.  This doesn't mean you shouldn't do it -- we see customers all the time who want the comfort of radiant floor heating and (within limits) don't care about the cost, the same way they want certain windows, doors, wall finishes, or countertops.

morpho

it's all bad news.

There is no win in this situation.

Here in Canadastan, the certified tank costs a little more than half the cadet price and the ci comes close to the cadet number. And in my opinion they are all pricey…not that they are over priced…I'm just a cheap S.O.B…..but in the end I need heat.



The propane cost of 400 is only for heat, the cadet should, in theory, shave off, lets say 30%.

$1440 over a lifespan of lets say 12 years. And if Marks experience holds true a once every two year service on the unit will keep it in good working order, well that pretty much balances out the Lp savings..they go into the maintenance.



So, the difference between the lowest capital cost and the highest is basically for comfort, space and code acceptance ….divided by 12 years.



SWEI,

Good points on the payback vs desires. i.e.: fancy countertops etc.

I built this place simple and efficient and by myself and saved a whack of cash doing it. I didn't put in granite countertops etc. (is there a payback period on granite?) but I did put money into good quality windows, stove, etc. Things that would benefit our existence and comfort…. in my opinion anyway….for some granite is worth it….me?…I put it into solar...That saved me money in a big way.

The payback on that was day one because the PV system cost me about the same amount as the power company wanted for a single pole and a transformer. (did not include getting the power to the house)



Its not wholly about money. of course I want to spend as little as possible, but there is no getting away without paying something to someone. So then what is it about? Saving the spotted tree whale? I have so much eco cred banked up I can hunt those suckers into extinction and still be good. Comfort?….I am hoping I can see a bit of upturn in comfort.

Space…oh yes space would be great. Every time I go into that room to do something it is a gymnastics routine waiting to go wrong. Though the sparkly spandex outfit looks great on me!



So what will old Morpho do?….hmmm?

I don't know…I'm waiting on a quote for a cadet…things here in canada can…for unknown reasons….be priced way over what you folks see on the tag down there.

But I know a guy who is building a whole subdivision, so maybe he can get it at a good price for us.