code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?

morpho

oil!?

oh man…i don't think i know anybody with oil heat….just doesn't exist out here.

There is a guy a few sections over who has a coal fired boiler…huge thing with a massive hopper.



The NG is about a km away from me, so not likely to get to me any time soon.



Lp is pretty much my only easy option.

archibald tuttle

think eastman was talkning modcon cost benefit , not fuel choice

I don't think eastman was saying look at other fuels.  he was going to the payback form the investment to qualify for bulk delivery.



don't know if you noticed up thread but morpho did reply to my question about propane unit cost involved in these calculations.



he was t about a buck a litre and could get it bulk for 50¢ a litre.  that's a pretty steep discount.  i'm sure he could split the difference with larger self serve tanks and filling more of them at once, but i got the sense he had considered that and figured that there was an opportunity cost to him assembling a fleet of 100 lbs tanks and undertaking to transport them.



and of course i don't know if he has a car or truck so how many of those he could actually carry before rosco p. coltrane shuts him down etc.



so i think the point was it was $800 a year the way he is doing it and would go down to $400 a year delivered. You figure you could forward commit 5 years of that difference if you acceptin the first place (which i don't*) that there is any decent reason why the inspector should be worried that some guy in the middle of nowhere off the grid wants to use an 'uncertified' hot water heater.



Now i think the $300 maintenance allowance people talk about for modcon would eat that up, but i think that is related to the cost of a serviceman cleaning the boiler and not what you'd expect to spend if you maintain it. Don't know about the servicability and access for cleaning on these lochinvars but i was pleasantly surprised to hear from a long time munchkin installer and serviceman who i met this week that units in propane service are much cleaner and require less frequent prophylactic service.  Since even at 50¢ a liter we're paying going on twice as much per btu compared to natural gas around here it is nice to know that we make out it one respect.



*Nobody said the install is unsafe. This certification thing stinks to me like Food and Drug Administration screwing up drug approval processes by not focusing on whether a drug is safe but on trials proving its efficacy for labeled uses.  i understand you can even make a case for having some independent , gov. or otherwise, kind of underwriters laboratory stamp of the appropriateness of a product for certain uses.  But the comingling of govt. regulation against the products use for off label with its safety regulations is a bad precedent.



So without the UL label you can't be disappointed if the thing doesn't last as long as you were hoping and maybe you can't make a warranty claim for a new tank if you have had it in heating service.  so, if you go into that knowingly, **** is the problem (i try not to use acronyms as i know i can get left behind when i don't know the latest ones, but i trust it is more polite in this case.)



Honestly, whether with the hot water heater system or the mod-con i would think an outbacker like morpho would do well to have a space heater back-up that uses no electricity anyway.



my 2¢  -- well as usual it looks a little more like my 50¢



brian



geez the friggin math questions to post are getting hard.  i had to take off my shoes.  i still can't figure out why we need that if folks have an ID and are signed in but guess there isn't too much spam here , if you don't count my posts that is, so maybe it is important

SWEI

Just for the record

those little Energy Savers are NOT the same as a typical direct-vent wall furnace.  They are modulating miniature comfort machines.  Really.

archibald tuttle

so SWEI[t]

yeah, as to space heating -- it depends.  the 22,000 i bought is made to mount on the wall or free stand has standing pilot no vent and normally retails around $275 or $300 bucks i think.



if i were thinking longterm backup might think about a small vented model, but i was sensitive to the money it looks like he is about to expend.  ironically, if he bought the back up and installed it and ignored the hot water heater, maybe he could get his delivery service and then get the hot water heater going . . .



i'm not trying to make him reverse field and i think sometimes when you've taken a decision you don't want to be second guessing yourself the whole way but his situation seems to beg for some no electricity needed backup.



brian

morpho

Noted!

Comfort machine...you should trade mark that ASAP!

Eastman

bulk LP

Maybe I missed something, but why is bulk LP delivery an issue?  You have to pass some kind of inspection to get LP?  Can not the tank heater issue and LP issue be resolved independently?

morpho

LPG

Ya, so the Lp guy's need an approved installation before they can fill up the tank.

Fair enough...liability I guess…

morpho

Yup…no truck.

Just a little hatchback…which I have hauled an amazing amount of crap in over the years…100lb lp tanks included….but my back isn't what it used to be…so I opted for 40's.



The power around here has gone down a lot…usually from oil and gas development….big machines knocking down lines. I usually just giggle to myself. But I'm sure something will come my way one day and I will need to fix something or other. When I first built the place and still had no heat up and running the passive solar was keeping it… if not comfortable…at least well above freezing. How would it perform on a long stretch with no sun in -22º…probably not well for not long…so I will put in a wood stove next spring. I have about 4 cords sitting in the back 40 that the power company dropped off when they were clearing for lines in the area.



This way I am independent of LP and Power if that goes down for any reason

Gordy

Synopsis

Synopsis is heat source in code violation, so no bulk propane hook up for you until resolved.



So Morpho I was going to ask what the pros/cons of doing nothing about your situation?



Pros

No out of pocket to rectify violation of heat source.



Cons

No final occupancy permit?

No bulk delivery of propane.

Fines imposed possibly?



Is there a time line inspector is enforcing?

morpho

The problem

boils down to:

-no LP hook-up

-in violation of the code, so they could make a dogs breakfast of my life if they wanted to...fines are a possibility, but I don't know for sure.

And it's not my intention to be under board about any of it...that's not been my intention. I want it done right and safe.

-I have occupancy so that's not a problem.



I have about 8 months to do the work and have it inspected. So not a massive rush...but sooner than later is always a good thing in my book.

Gordy

So actually

You could get through another Canadian winter.



Devote spring /summer to an installation at your leisurely pace. Time to squire products. Maybe monitor your present system a little closer record readings, and compare to new installation.

Eastman

what model

takagi do you have?  

morpho

UUUGHH!

Okay, so I got the quote back from my buddy on the cadet.

It may be little, and it may have a cute little name…

But the wholesale price he can get it for me for is…well….lets just say….



You know the 30% less than other units that was thrown around?

Well, here in Canada (god I hate this place sometimes) ADD 30% more onto the price of a Lochinvar 44k BTU knight in the USA…. thats what I'm looking at.



AND THATS WHOLESALE!



Eastman:

The tankless I have isn't a takagi…I was looking at them for the floor heat.

I have a Rheem for DHW…which is a rebadged Paloma in reality.

Works great.



Okay, so now I need to rethink my whole life.

Eastman

specs

I was just wondering what qualities the tankless had that is working well for you.  Perhaps there is a combi boiler that could match those specs, then you could sell your current unit which is pretty easy to ship. 

Gordy

Morpho

Sorry to hear that. Price other brands see what you get.

archibald tuttle

sticker shock

pexsupply.com  $2548 for 44K knight



don't know what you were getting. but i bet they would ship to canada, and you're looking out 6 months. . .  I don't think that is a particularly attractive price for a boiler, but i'm a stick in the mud and they are usually pretty good on price. what were you running into up there?



  you know that my view is get a space heater for a backup, get it approved, get your bulk propane and then go back to the hot water heater for the warm floor. 



brian

morpho

bhvfnoasiubdnvafoiv

that was my head hitting the keyboard.



Eastman:

The tankless has been great for space and the endless hot water….or at least the idea that if I had endless water i would have endless hot water. Though this is the first time in my life I haven't had to suffer through a poorly sized HWT for domestic use. The two litres of cold water I have to run before it gets hot isn't an issue. I have a little bucket in the shower, so I don't actually waste it. It goes to the dog dish or water plants etc.

So yes I have considered selling it and putting in a combo…



Gordy:

Ya tell me about it!

I worked out the difference between the US price and here….49% higher for the Cadet ….Thats crazy….We get shafted so badly here. We make cars here then ship em down to the states. Nothing is different…same car…but we pay thousands more.

I doubt it will make much of a difference between manufacturers.



The dual purpose DHW tanks are pretty much the same…if it's 800 in the US…well here it's 1500. That crazy Vertex AOSMITH condensing HWT came to somewhere around 5 grand….ooops…sorry…not supposed to talk actual prices.



Even the wall furnace is going to be a wad of cash.



Brian:

Yup, thats the one I based my pricing difference off of for the Loch Cadet. The little booger is 30% more than that one.



Hell, CI boilers here start in the 2 grand area.



I am waiting on a price from Pex supply….they don't carry it yet.



I could fly down and buy it,…have a vacation…fly back and still come out ahead.



Okay, I have to get back to working…..

Have a good one everyone.

Canucker

Hate to be the bearer of bad news

But according to their shipping policy, pexsupply doesn't ship outside of the U.S. I'm pretty sure that includes us up here in the Great White North.

archibald tuttle

so he has to have someone in the state's he trusts not to sell it on craigslist

. . .  I'm not saying that is me but aren't any of you other guys trustworthy.



don't know why someone wouldn't ship to canada -- maybe the shipping wouldn't be free but.  are we having a trade war? ****.



brian

morpho

I think they do ship.... Or they did

To Canada but who knows.

Don't sweat my shipping guys.... I know a guy in so-cal that ships stuff all over the world for his business. Actually that's how I got the tankless.... now that I think about it.



Thanks though.... Cool that anybody would even think about my first world woes.

archibald tuttle

NFN back to takagi

i'm going to call Takagi on Monday, just because inquiring minds want to know.



Various Amazon lisitings say the Jr. is good for Radiant heat according to the manufacturer.



so all you have to do is get your inspector to go to amazon.com.  well alright that might not work but even moving up to an T-H which is their condensing model and says on the Takagi site it is rated for heating is going to be half the price of the knight.



e.g.  Tk JR already set up propane for $576

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0057X28EG/ref=s9_simh_gw_p60_d0_i6?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0ZGKDNC6N895XS4BQR7Z&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1630072222&pf_rd_i=507846  



but look the T-H is only $1276



http://www.amazon.com/Takagi-T-H2-DV-Direct-Tankless-Propane/dp/B003UHUXU2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_6



both of those are prime so i'd get them in 2 days for free shipping.  don't know what the deal with canada is but both say "This item is also available for shipping to select countries outside the U.S."  Don't know if Canada is a 'select' country but since they can ship us oil, hydroelectricty, etc., i'd think we could ship a couple 50 lbs. boilers up there.  if anybody has got it worked out Jeff Bezos

probably does (if he's not busy in davos or somewhere).



and the takagi's are small and hang on the wall so you would have space for a transfer tank to isolate the tubing, although i think the heat exhanger is probably close to as resilient as stainless steel, but i believe they use copper, like the heatmakers.   i always like that myself.  you could melt the heat exchanger with no flow, but they got their flow safeties worked out and it was off to the races.



i'll get back to you with whatever takagi tells me about 'certification' for heating applications.



brian

Eastman

inspector

I think the problem from the inspector's point of view is that morpho has gone out of the grey and into the black.  He took an appliance and exclusively re-purposed it for a situation it was not designed for.  If the tank was restored to open loop DHW, and heat was delivered via something like a taco xpb-1, is not the problem resolved?  It seems like installing a tankless water heater in closed loop operation would be likely to recreate the original complaint.

archibald tuttle

takagi literatures says they are for radiant heating as well

It says that in some places on some models but there it isn't easy to figure out if they just mean the is a suitable off label use or if some fo them have 'certifications' to go with.  It doesn't say anythingspecific  about that in the specifications on their web site. They have a bunch of glyphics for their certifications, but they don't have a text version that tells you what the glyphics mean.  some have initials that might be recognized here, but i don't know why they don't just spell it out.



i'm gonna call 'em up and find out what they say about this



brian

Gordy

Forget the tankless

Seriously!



Brian your research should lead you to the wall tankless WH are not boilers. Use the right tool for the job. Enough said.



Look closely at the warranty for closed loop heating , and that should be enough to note they are not designed for that purpose.



The taco xblock would work IF he ditched the tankless, and converted the tank style WH for domestic use.



Now the xblock is expensive, and I believe the tank WH is a little short on output. Using a HX will make it come up even more short on output due to efficiency loss of the xblock.

Eastman

I think the biggest problem

with the xbloc in this situation is the electrical usage.  Certainly a much better version could be made if one rolled their own. 

morpho

tankless

Eastman, Gordy, Brian:



Yup, the xbloc would solve the problem and create more as mentioned.



The tankless from Takagi would pass code as long as it was the ASME H version. TM-32, TM-50



Though I am unclear whether the "ASME H" means it okay as a stand alone or I would be back to having to use it as dual purpose. I've yet to get an answer what the "dual purpose designation" actually is.



It is really confusing to have a certification that says it's for heating…but then come across a common opinion that it isn't really for space heating. Why would the ASME folks certify it if it's not really for that purpose? Then you have to wonder why I should trust the boiler…it's certified ASME as well.



Okay, a bit of a stretch I know…but you know what I mean.



This has all become wacky….

If I can get my hands on the cadet for a reasonable price I'll get it.

If not, I'll get a….a…well, I don't know….

morpho

The takagi is

"HLW" Lined potable water heater not "H" cast iron heating boiler

So there you go….it would have to be used as a dual purpose.

archibald tuttle

finally got an answer from Takagi engineering

which is essentially as Morpho expected, but clearly shows the company standing behind the use of all its units, HLW certified and not, for heating use but recognizing the realities of local decisions.  You'll notice that in practice Takagi has seen some jurisdictions allow dual use, but not that it is required. And the engineers reference to the difference between H and HLW requirements suggests again that there is no evidence whatsoever the HLW appliances are not appropriate for low to modest temperature applications with observation of necessary overtemp, flow and water 'level safeties.  It seems it would behoove the industry to develop a best practices set of standards for those kind of uses for non "H" stamped appliances.  As to whether the HLW itself is even required that would seem an open question from Takagi's point of view -- jurisdiction specific but not anything they shrink from.



Brian,

 

I apologize for how long this has taken for a response.  I have looked into this.  There is a difference between HLW and H stamps.  As you noted HLW is for potable use and H is for heating.  There are differences in testing standards between the H and HLW standards.  I believe the H stamp is more strict because it is dealing with higher temperature water and potential higher pressure issues due to most heating systems being closed loops.  HLW is for potable use so it is unlikely that water temperatures will go above 180 degrees where a heating boiler can go up to 210 degrees.

 

Every jurisdiction is different as to what codes they adopt and follow.  In most locations in the US the inspectors do not enforce an H stamp requirement for heating applications.  That is why we state that our heaters can be used in the applications.  Application wise, our heaters are very good for heating systems.  It is the administrative side that makes it tough.

 

I have heard where inspectors will allow dual use with the HLW stamp, however, that is a locale issue and you should check with your local code officials.

 

If they are going to require an H stamp product for your application then I have to tell you that we do not produce a product with the H stamp.

 

I hope this information was helpful.

 

Regards,

 

Jason Janz

Tankless Application Engineer

SWEI

As I have mentioned previously

it is possible to make these work well in a heating application, but by the time you spend the money to do so, a mod/con will usually end up costing less (and occupying less than half the floor space.)